I need help making a decision!! PLEASE

[mopar-or-no-car]

The guy restoring my chally said that my 340 is toast!  several years ago someone stole the 6 pak carbs off of the motor so the top end has been exposed to the elements! and apparently they loosened the intake so also of coolant went into the cylanders.  I saw the motor and the cylanders have about 1/2" of rust in them and the walls of the cylanders are rough so they are going to need to be bored. the guy tearing the engine appart let me smell something and he told me what I was smelling was burnt so the engine sometime in it's life has gotten VERY HOT!
OK the question:   should I force the guy to rebuild my 340 or should I go with his idea to put in a brand new 360 with a roller cam and aluminum heads? he said it would breathe better, be lighter oh it would also have 400 hp.

I don't know much about this stuff     so any input would be greatly appreciated
Thankyou
Rachelle

[rav440]

take the block to somebody else and get a second opion . sounds to me like he dosent want to get into all the work . is it the #s matching block to your CHALLENGER ? if it were me id take it to a machine shop that builds engines & get it hot tanked and sonic tested or magna fluxed & if they say its OK have them do the 340 . 

like i said it sounds like it is a body shop more than an engine building shop & they just do not want to deal with the work on the 340 . its much easier for them if you go buy a crate engine and they drop it in the CHALLENGER .

in other words if you're getting  your bath room remodeled you dont want the carpenter doing the plumming work . 

[mopar-or-no-car]

take the block to somebody else and get a second opion . sounds to me like he dosent want to get into all the work . is it the #s matching block to your CHALLENGER ? if it were me id take it to a machine shop that builds engines & get it hot tanked and sonic tested or magna fluxed & if they say its OK have them do the 340 . 

like i said it sounds like it is a body shop more than an engine building shop & they just do not want to deal with the work on the 340 . its much easier for them if you go buy a crate engine and they drop it in the CHALLENGER .

in other words if you're getting  your bath room remodeled you dont want the carpenter doing the plumming work . 

No it's not the #'s matching engine to the car and it is an all around shop not just a resto shop  they do all their work in house! I talked to the actual mechanic that is doing the engine and he is the one that suggested the 360.  I talked to my father today who has been a mechanic for over 50 years and he said go for the 360 because the 340 will have gremlins that will follow me around all it's life? (but he is a chevy guy!)
What's so bad about a "crate motor" I am told it would be newer technology, lighter and and also it would probably go faster!

[Dans 68]

Rachelle,

Good to see you posting in a topic I normally read! I would also get another opinion regarding the block.  Listen to rav440's posting...he makes a lot of sense. There are a lot of good shops in the Bay Area that can look at and do the work on your engine. If you want a few suggestions let me know.

I Hope to see you around this summer. And since we talked last year I have a new addition to the family!

Dan

[Rolling_Thunder]

if its not the #'s block i would just replace it.    if it was #s matching i would suggest boring and sleeving to save it...       

[no318]

if its not the #'s block i would just replace it.    if it was #s matching i would suggest boring and sleeving to save it...       

I agree

[doctorpimp]

Was it originally a 340?  Is it a T/A car?
What year/ number/date code is the 340 block you have?

What is your intention for the car:

Resto-mod street car with high performance everything? Go for the 360

Or, as-new type stock looking driver? Go for the rebuilt 340 with stock external parts.

[justin1987]

if its not the #'s block i would just replace it.    if it was #s matching i would suggest boring and sleeving to save it...       

[mopar-or-no-car]

I need to add something additional here! it is not a crate motor he is going to put in he is looking for a used 360 truck motor from the years 70-80 and he is going to rebuild that! he says my motor needs WAY too many sleeves and he would have to bore it 60 over and he doesn't want to do that! he says I can get more perfermance and a more reliable motor out of the 360 given the condition my motor is in he says the rust was WAY too bad does that change anyones oppinion?

[doctorpimp]

360

[firefighter3931]

If the block is that trashed then you're better off starting with something better, inmo. 

If it were mine, i wouldn't stop at 360 cubes....a 408 stroker is even better. Big block performance in a small block engine package. The extra torque helps with heavy cars and e-bodies are not lightweights. 



Ron

[Big Lebowski]

Put a Hemi in it.

[694spdRT]

Why use a truck 360 from the 70's?  I would look for a 360 Magnum out of a newer truck if that is the route you are going. They already have a roller cam that can be reground and better designed heads if cost is an issue.

Otherwise the 408 stroker seems like a good thing too. 

[mopar-or-no-car]

Put a Hemi in it.

and I guess that means YOU are going to pay my gas bill?  this is going to be my daily driver!! I want radical but not something that is going to kill me at the gas pump!! I would be stopping every other day to just fill up!!    but thanks for the idea
besides the fact I CAN'T AFFORD ONE!!

[ryan053]

I agree with the 360 magnum.  you should be able to find one for fairly cheap in a junkyard or somewhere like craigslist.

[Mike DC]

 
I'd get a scrapyard 360 Magnum and build it with a 4.00" stroker kit.  (Barely costs more than replacing the stock parts.)

You end up with about 400 inches and the Magnum heads are beautiful on that setup.

 

[mopar-or-no-car]

actually I guess being a woman helps! I wore him down!! we are going to bore out my original 340 and sleve what needs to be sleved !! and thanks firefighter for the suggestion of the 408 stroker! he is looking into that and I think that is the way we are going to go!! Thanks guys for all of your responses they were all invalualble!! I'll keep you posted and probably keep the questions coming!!   

[mopar-or-no-car]

ok here is hopefully the final plan for my motor.... he is going to bore it out smooth then sleeve it back to 20 over put back my original pistons, and rods, and rocker arms,  he is going to get a 360 crank and replace my 340 crank he said it has a longer stroke, he is going to put edlebrock aluminum heads and a performer rpm intake.  How does that sound?   

[RD]

ok here is hopefully the final plan for my motor.... he is going to bore it out smooth then sleeve it back to 20 over put back my original pistons, and rods, and rocker arms, he is going to get a 360 crank and replace my 340 crank he said it has a longer stroke, he is going to put edlebrock aluminum heads and a performer rpm intake. How does that sound?

the 360 and 340 had different main journal sizes if I am not mistaken, so that is really not an option.  340 and 318 had the same journal size, 360's were bigger, so unless he plans on boring out the mains on the 340 block, the 360 block wont fit (someone chime in if i am incorrect). *edi* or have the 360 cranks journals turned down.  I dont believe this is done often as the 360 crank is cast and not forged.  hence balancing the assembly will be needed after your install this type of stroker setup.

why put the original pistons back in?  if the bores were that crappy then the pistons should be just as crappy.  I would get some forged slugs to put in there (if money permits) instead of putting used cast pistons back in.  not a wise choice in my opinion.

[jerry]

since you are using this for a daily driver and worried about gas you need to scrap the junk and go to a salvage yard and pick up a 318-2bbl.i can't believe you would even consider fixing a block like that.

[RD]

since you are using this for a daily driver and worried about gas you need to scrap the junk and go to a salvage yard and pick up a 318-2bbl.i can't believe you would even consider fixing a block like that.

on that note, why not just get a 3.9 out of a dakota and put in there with a A500 OD trans.

[mopar-or-no-car]

since you are using this for a daily driver and worried about gas you need to scrap the junk and go to a salvage yard and pick up a 318-2bbl.i can't believe you would even consider fixing a block like that.

not really worried about gas I was just joking with the guy who said I should put a hemi in it!! I want my 340 that is why we are going to all this trouble!!  kind of sentimental reasons!!!!!!  not sure they were cast pistons either my boyfriend rebuilt the 340 before it went into the car and he special ordered the pistons!!!

[Nacho-RT74]

Put a Hemi in it.

and I guess that means YOU are going to pay my gas bill?  this is going to be my daily driver!!

If he affords an Hemi to me, I would afford the gas forever... wouldn't care pay the gas bill ( not even being in USA )

[Bobs69]

If it's sentimental reasons that's keeping you wanting the 340 then that sort of changes things.  But there are always limits.

I have a drive in a mid 70's dart with a 360 crate motor in it.  It was fast.  Real nice.  360 horsepower.  Don't know the cost.

340's are rare, but is there any advantage to a 340 over a 360??? I don't know just asking.  Makes people around talk "that's got a 340!!!"

If it's going to be used alot, and being a small block, you're kind of lucky I'd say, because you could get a 318 or 360 with a modern transmission, with the overdrive.  I "had" to get the gear vendors.

[mopar-or-no-car]

since you are using this for a daily driver and worried about gas you need to scrap the junk and go to a salvage yard and pick up a 318-2bbl.i can't believe you would even consider fixing a block like that.

What do you think I am building anyway? a gramma's car?  a 318 when I already have a 340 to work with? sorry! I am going MUSCLE ALL THE WAY HERE!!  and gas is NOT A WORRY!!  No I don't own a small bank I will just do without other stuff in order to drive my chally!!  The main prerequisite when I took it to this shop was that it had that muscle car rumble when he was finished! and he guarantees me it will!!!!!

and RD my engine builder knows that 340 and 360 have different size main journals that why he is ordering a steel crank so the 360 one can be turned down! he already figured that in!! I have a really great guy working on my engine and he is treating me right and he is doing TONS of homework so there will be NO problems with my motor when it is done because you know......no one wants the wrath of a woman!!        lol  and he knows that is what will happen if he screws up AND he knows I will be the BEST advertising he has EVER had if he does a good job too.      So he has TONS to gain if he does good also!!  he has purchased so many books on how to build a small block mopar I couldn't believe it!! but I am glad!! he is the owner and I think this is the most he has EVER gotten involved in a project!! (good for me)
anyways does that answer your question?

[Bobs69]

I would think a souped up 318 would be sweat.  They worked good in darts.  Anyhow, 360 even better.  And as for the modern tranny, there is no harm there.  It's not just a question of gas, its just so you don't let the engine scream and see the tach at 3500 on the highways.  More of a comfort thing I guess.

Should be a nice quick car when you are thru.

[RD]

he will be unable to use the pistons that came with the 340 if he is increasing the stroke of the motor (different piston heights between the stock 340 piston and the piston required by a stroker motor using a 3.58" stroke from the 360 crankshaft).  I know we covered alot of over the phone, but you need to remember that you dont NEED a stroker, no one does... they WANT one.  so if you want one, great, go get'em tiger... but remember it is not a need.  A 340 is plenty enough motor to get you where you need to go (quickly).

my opinion is to stick with the 340.

[mopar-or-no-car]

he will be unable to use the pistons that came with the 340 if he is increasing the stroke of the motor (different piston heights between the stock 340 piston and the piston required by a stroker motor using a 3.58" stroke from the 360 crankshaft).  I know we covered alot of over the phone, but you need to remember that you dont NEED a stroker, no one does... they WANT one.  so if you want one, great, go get'em tiger... but remember it is not a need.  A 340 is plenty enough motor to get you where you need to go (quickly).

my opinion is to stick with the 340.

NOPE you are wrong!! the 20 year old inside me NEEDS a stroker!!  lol     and I was incorrect he is NOT using my old pistons I am getting all new pistons and rods the whole motor is basically gonna be brand new!!  $$$$(ouch)  too bad hind sight is 20/20!! so far the car is over budget and it isn't even finished yet!!  but on the bright side I am gonna have one bad a$$ mf when it is done and the paint I picked makes it gonna be really nice and pretty!!   

[41husk]

Dont forgett to post up some pictures as soon as it's done, if not sooner

[62 Max]

Why don't I sell you the injected 318 out of my Dakota? Performance computer,roller cam,big injectors,larger throttle body and 518 overdrive.It will knock your socks or ("whatever you choose") off !

[mopar-or-no-car]

Why don't I sell you the injected 318 out of my Dakota? Performance computer,roller cam,big injectors,larger throttle body and 518 overdrive.It will knock your socks or ("whatever you choose") off !

Why would I want a 318 when I am gonna have a 340 pushing 400 hp?    and the motor is done already anyway so the $$$ are already spent!! and I have been promised that THIS engine is gonna knock my socks off PLUS piss off all my neighbors!! lol here is a picture of the engine in the almost done stage the 2 things missing are the DC valve covers that I had anodized blue     (the look SOOOOOOOOO cool) and the air cleaner that took me FOREVER to decide on!! I decided to go resto-mod for the car instead of resto just for kicks this way it wont look like everyone elses at the car shows!!
I wasn't sure because it is a 71 chally with all the options available in 71 including the rare wide moulding around the front! it even has a 6 way adjustable seat!! I am SO glad it was purchased in the '80s when nobody wanted these cars so I kind of had the pick of the litter!!!!!!  My ex turned it into an R/T with stuff he found in a wrecking yard!! hood, guages, the side scoops on the quarter! it is going to be one hot looking car when it is all done!! I can't wait!! I just hope I can keep my foot under control because I can't afford the tickets!!  lol

[71ChallengeHer]

Hey Rachelle,  Sounds like your project should be up and running soon. Just like any project , they all seem to go over budget. 

[mopar-or-no-car]

Hey Rachelle,  Sounds like your project should be up and running soon. Just like any project , they all seem to go over budget. 

YEA but it is WAY over budget I am gonna have to rob a bank (j/k) to get it out of hawk!!!  gonna need to start selling off some of my part stash so I can get my car back!! because it is costing a whole lot more than I expected!! and since I had them paint the engine compartment now I just have to have the whole car painted!! because I fell in LOVE with the paint I chose!! it is going to be like I said earlier one BAD A$$ MF when it is done I can't wait!! I know several guys that are gonna be REAL JEALOUS!!  lol heck they already are because I told them I am putting a stroker with headers in it!! OMG!! for some reason men just can't be outdone by a woman!! go figure!!   

[Brock Samson]

 Time for an Update, 

[SeattleCharger]

I need to add something additional here! it is not a crate motor he is going to put in he is looking for a used 360 truck motor from the years 70-80 and he is going to rebuild that! he says my motor needs WAY too many sleeves and he would have to bore it 60 over and he doesn't want to do that! he says I can get more perfermance and a more reliable motor out of the 360 given the condition my motor is in he says the rust was WAY too bad does that change anyones oppinion?

get the 360,  a bunch of sleeves and 60 over is a waste if its just an old 340 in the car, (nothing special I mean)
     the 360 will be better and probably a lot less money because of the sleeving of the 340, and the 360 will prob. just need to be 30 over,         I bought an old 440 to get the steel crank out, the crank was fine, I took the block to a machine shop, it was similar to your in that it was rusted pretty bad from sitting with water in it, the cylinder walls were rusted/pitted, and he said it probably needed a couple sleeves, that I should use my other one because this one was pretty junky at this point,   it COULD have been made to work with sleeves and boring, but why bother if you can get a better newer shape block, and then your situation has even more reasons to go 360, lighter, more power, etc.

[mopar-or-no-car]

I need some additional input.................I am sure it is because I am a woman but the shop that did the work on my car RIPPED ME OFF! Now my delema..........do I confront them, or do I take them directly to the California state bureau of automotive repair? they double charged me, over charged me and did all around crappy work!! I can't believe it!! and the best part is the whole time pretending to be my best friend! I guess buyer BEWARE!! they charged me to turn my rotars, then charged me for new ones, charged me to turn my drums, then charged me for new ones, charged me to rebuild my distributor then charged me for an MSD set up, charged me to re-wire my engine compartment then charged me for a new wiring harness! the even charged me for a speed pro file to fit the moly rings into my motor? WOW
They lost the bolts to the chrome cowl under my windshield so they put screws threw 1" washers and man does that look bad!!, they zip tied my spark plug wires together because they are too long and hung them over the plastic thing on the power booster? the long and short they jacked my car up! and it cost me $45,000.00 without even getting a paint job!! SO do I discuss the bill with them and have them explain the charges away as they have been doing because they think they have a "dumb" woman on their hands.... or do I take the advice of the local mopar club president and take it to his buddy's shop, take pictures and hang them with the bureau of automotive repair?
I am NOT use to dishonest shops! my Father is So honest he gives the farm away most of the time that is why is never made alot of money so I am having trouble with this discision that is why I figured I would ask you guys!! HELP!! Much thanks!! Also do you think I was ripped Off? (I feel I was)
Thanks
Rachelle

[b5blue]

Rachelle this news is terrible! I followed you posts and admired your spunk! First thing though, I've had new drum and rotors turned, (very "lightly" just to prep the new surface for break in) But I'm not defending THEM in any way! I can't see a small block build running more than 8K no matter what they did! Sleeves, stroked, balance-blueprint, high end parts, ect., labor, Heck a new crate motor is 4,500 bucks and that's all new! You need legal assistance right away. Check with your local MoPar friends and get all your paperwork sorted out and contact the bureau ASAP. You need to document everything that's happened and when it happened adding your own notes right away. Research cases on line to see if anyone else has gone through the same thing you are heading into. Find an attorney that has a track record in consumer affairs, they should be glad to interview with you for free. Good Luck!!!         

[71ChallengeHer]

Rachelle this news is terrible! I followed you posts and admired your spunk! First thing though, I've had new drum and rotors turned, (very "lightly" just to prep the new surface for break in) But I'm not defending THEM in any way! I can't see a small block build running more than 8K no matter what they did! Sleeves, stroked, balance-blueprint, high end parts, ect., labor, Heck a new crate motor is 4,500 bucks and that's all new! You need legal assistance right away. Check with your local MoPar friends and get all your paperwork sorted out and contact the bureau ASAP. You need to document everything that's happened and when it happened adding your own notes right away. Research cases on line to see if anyone else has gone through the same thing you are heading into. Find an attorney that has a track record in consumer affairs, they should be glad to interview with you for free. Good Luck!!!         

Rachelle, I agree. This news makes me really sad. I know how much you were looking forward to have the Challenger on the road. I hate dishonest shops. Good Luck with everything. 

[mopar-or-no-car]

Rachelle this news is terrible! I followed you posts and admired your spunk! First thing though, I've had new drum and rotors turned, (very "lightly" just to prep the new surface for break in) But I'm not defending THEM in any way! I can't see a small block build running more than 8K no matter what they did! Sleeves, stroked, balance-blueprint, high end parts, ect., labor, Heck a new crate motor is 4,500 bucks and that's all new! You need legal assistance right away. Check with your local MoPar friends and get all your paperwork sorted out and contact the bureau ASAP. You need to document everything that's happened and when it happened adding your own notes right away. Research cases on line to see if anyone else has gone through the same thing you are heading into. Find an attorney that has a track record in consumer affairs, they should be glad to interview with you for free. Good Luck!!!         

they rebuilt the motor, bored it, sleved it, new pistons, new crank, new cam, new perfermer rpm intake new carb, new alum eldlebrock heads, new headers, new plug wires, new brake system new heavier leaf springs, new heavy sway bar, had to fix my rusty roof(has a vinyl top on it!, they did it with layers of fiberglass inside and out then sealed it and painted it) installed sound deading stuff inside under carper, installed carpet, cleaned up all of my trim pieces and reinstalled them, painted my engine compartment, install sub-frame connector.
This is all the work they did to my car for the money I paid them! just thought I would let you know it was more than just the motor!!
Thanks for your help! So I am understanding I should NOT talk to them about the bill?     Go straight to legal advice? Man this sucks and he was SO nice in the beginning!! WOW!!!!! I guess he figured he had open pockets and he was gonna pluck them!!

[b5blue]

Do you have a breakdown of charges? Your bill at a "straight up shop" should never be anything but as expected. "A meeting of the minds" is a key to any "deal", you will do this...buy this time...for this much money. I don't think that's what happened or you would have posted here sooner with your concerns! I'm glad they did more for you than the motor but you need local hands on value judgment of what's been done, how it was done, and what it's really worth. Next would be what you agreed to pay vs what they expected to charge. That's why I recommended an attorney first, they know how to proceed from where you are right now (having paid in full). They will be able to tell you if you have a case and if you do how to proceed, do that first so you know for sure if you can even approach the shop about the bill without ruining a potential law suit! (It would seem to me an attorney contacting them on your behalf would flush them out faster if they knew they did wrong!) There are allot of people here who could look at the charges and know what they should be to be fair to you both. If you were around the Tampa Bay area I could send you to places that could give you expert testimony on everything done that would hold up in court. Your local MoPar friends are your best experts right now for a value judgment because you need to figure out what the bill "should have been" if not 45K. Once again Good Luck!         

[mopar-or-no-car]

The original estimate but as he called it a 'SWAG" scientific wild ass guess was $25,000! then he kept increasing it! telling me that since the car sat for so long in my back yard that surprises we poping up!! but the president of the club said he has charged me double retail on most of the parts! including the edlebrock aluminum heads and those are pricey!! The estimate was written on a piece of copy paper NOT on a work order! I guess I should have been buyer be ware! right there!! WOW I guess I am NOT as smart as I thought I was!! when he let me test drive it I took it straight to my buddy who is the parts manager at the local Dodge dealership! THANK GOD!! and boy did he find some crap I would have NEVER seen!! if the guy at the shop would have known my destination I bet that car would have NEVER left his shop!! thank god for friends in the right places!!    MY buddy even grabbed one of the dealership mechanics to come over and look at it!! and he took out his flashlight and looked at the rotars and is not sure if they were even turned!! that would sure suck if they charged me for something they didn't even do!! But I guess based on the rest of the invoice that would definately NOT be a surprise!! and as far as the invoice goes they lumped all the labor charges together with no hour charges to speak of!! example I got a kick out of this one! repair and replace wiring as Nec, replace ignition system with MSD dist, street fire box Tach adapor neutral safety harness, wiper switch and ign wiring harness TO START WITH KEY!  $2,000.00  ok here is the thing tach adapter for the MSD! and the tach still doesn't work! AND  TO START WITH KEY how else am I suppose to start the car? do they want me to pop the hood everytime I want to drive the thing and the tap the starter with a screw driver!! OMG!!! and they call themselves mechanics!! WOW!!!!

[b5blue]

You are making the right moves...ask your friends to put statements together, write all this down, and leave room to add things. Try to sort out dates and start going over the items online to find realistic prices of what was bought for your car. Photos of everything as it is now. Remember you need to try and find out what they did do is worth. Unless you can say "A-B-C and D cost me this but I should have only had to pay THIS" you won't have proof. Labor can be subjective "well I went to fix the switch but the wires were bad too"...that kind of thing. If they did things like say "well I bought this and that and put it all together for 2,000.00" where are all the receipts for the warranty on these new parts? Try to think if they came to you and said "we goofed up on your bill...here's XXXXX back"....what would be fair? (hopefully that's what's going to happen, right) Hang in there you have your car back in your possession and that's 1/2 of the battle! Your investigating a case of possible FRAUD and it's much harder to do without exhibit "A".