Clones, recreations, tributes, whatever- a rant

[sick dawg]

I've got it! I'm no longer calling my orange '69 a HEMI clone, tribute, look alike, or recreation car any more.

for now on, it's a HEMI CONTINUATION SERIES CAR!

Sounds pretty good to me, a 1969 Dodge Charger Hemi Continuation Series car.

[ClassicAuto]

WOW when does one start?

I am Jim Barber, Owner of Classic Automotive Restoration Specialists, Inc.......I must say this has been a pretty interesting read through everyone's postings.  Please allow me to set the record straight on several points.  I am using the Yenko name with permission and we have been talking with the family regarding a charitable foundation they want to start in Don's honor.  I am not using 2008 VIN's on 1969 style cars, I am using a 11 digit series serial number that has been approved.  This serial number in no way can be confused with a 1969 VIN number therefore no one will ever pass the car off a an original.  As for one post, someone really has there facts wrong. In 1966, 1967 and 1968 Don was modifying Chevrolet's, however in January of 1969 he began using the Chevrolet COPO system to order cars from the factory with the 427 engine and all the other driveline he wanted.  Basically after January of 1969 Don was simply installing stripes, gauges, headers and optional wheels to factory built cars.

Interesting what Ghost says about his Chevy friends..... when this car was introduced at SEMA last November, 3 top Camaro guys including the owner of a Camaro website, a national Supercar judge and a author of many Camaro books applauded the car for how correct it was only finding 3 errors.

As for some of the other things the article said, let's leave it at this......I did not write it and the writers will NOT show you the article in advance of publishing.  These writers change things for sensationalism, there were other areas of the article that were not correct that you did not catch.  Bottom line here is the deal, I am offering a complete car to the original specs as it was in 1969, that is new.  Not some local rebuild or parts that are used, but a new car.  As for the quick cash grab, this has nothing to do with money.  Oh, one last thing, Shelby has/had nothing to due with the  Shelby continuation cars out of Texas, it was simply a licensing deal, pure and simple.

Thanks fellas, nice web site!

[sick dawg]

WOW when does one start?

I am Jim Barber, Owner of Classic Automotive Restoration Specialists, Inc.......I must say this has been a pretty interesting read through everyone's postings.  Please allow me to set the record straight on several points.  I am using the Yenko name with permission and we have been talking with the family regarding a charitable foundation they want to start in Don's honor.  I am not using 2008 VIN's on 1969 style cars, I am using a 11 digit series serial number that has been approved.  This serial number in no way can be confused with a 1969 VIN number therefore no one will ever pass the car off a an original.  As for one post, someone really has there facts wrong. In 1966, 1967 and 1968 Don was modifying Chevrolet's, however in January of 1969 he began using the Chevrolet COPO system to order cars from the factory with the 427 engine and all the other driveline he wanted.  Basically after January of 1969 Don was simply installing stripes, gauges, headers and optional wheels to factory built cars.

Interesting what Ghost says about his Chevy friends..... when this car was introduced at SEMA last November, 3 top Camaro guys including the owner of a Camaro website, a national Supercar judge and a author of many Camaro books applauded the car for how correct it was only finding 3 errors.

As for some of the other things the article said, let's leave it at this......I did not write it and the writers will NOT show you the article in advance of publishing.  These writers change things for sensationalism, there were other areas of the article that were not correct that you did not catch.  Bottom line here is the deal, I am offering a complete car to the original specs as it was in 1969, that is new.  Not some local rebuild or parts that are used, but a new car.  As for the quick cash grab, this has nothing to do with money.  Oh, one last thing, Shelby has/had nothing to due with the  Shelby continuation cars out of Texas, it was simply a licensing deal, pure and simple.

Thanks fellas, nice web site!

Thanks for the Hemi Continuation Series idea! I like it and plan to call my clone this from now on.

[Ghoste]

I don't know Jim, I think that as far as I'm concerned it's still just a clone.  I do appreciate you coming on here and offering your side though, I respect that.  I also take you at you word on not knowing what a writer is going to submit for a story.  I just can't wrap my mind around the idea though that a reproduction body counts as a new car.
There isn't one single used or refurbished part in that entire car?  If that is true then I also have to admit a certain envy to the Chevy camp.  I knew they always has us in numbers and aftermarket support but I'm very impressed that you can purchase every single needed part to recreate a 1969 Camaro.  If we're lucky, maybe that will happen for the Mopars but it isn't too likely.

[Mike DC]

Ditto about your coming on here to voice your side.  Good to get the other half of the story. 



IMHO the repro cars are just like repro engine blocks or repro fenders.  I'm glad they're out there and the hobby is certainly better for them existing.  But I think it's unlikely the new stuff will ever join the ranks of the original 40yo stuff in terms of future collectibility value. 

All repro stuff is worth its cost in parts + assembly.  And then maybe a LITTLE bit more for the exclusivity of a short-run deal like this, if the cars are done well enough to warrant extra respect over the average hot-rod-shop's build quality. 



A person could argue, "The new Camaros are totally identical to the valuable originals." 
But I could say the same thing about a flawlessly-cloned HemiCuda that was built out of a (37-year-old) smallblock Barracuda's unibody.

The huge-dollar collectible musclecars are like a Babe Ruth signed baseball:  Someone can duplicate the baseball and duplicate the signature, but the end result won't duplicate the value of the original.


Just my opinion.

 

[RallyeMike]

Ya know what really pisses me off is that after the Dodge brothers died, they kept using the name ! Ya ! Like, they were really Dodges after that ! How can they get away with it ? I didnt know they had died. Nobody told me. There was no disclaimer on the title or anything!!!!

I'm thinking class action suit.

[bull]

I don't think this is any worse (in fact I think it's much better) than the company known as Chrysler calling a four door Magnum sedan a Charger. That's been one of the arguments used by the new "Charger" apologists since day one anyway, "The name belongs to Chrysler so they can use it on any car they want." At least in this case Chevrolet is actually attaching the name to something that is a genuine recreation of what once was.

[Ghoste]

Ya know what really pisses me off is that after the Dodge brothers died, they kept using the name ! Ya ! Like, they were really Dodges after that ! How can they get away with it ? I didnt know they had died. Nobody told me. There was no disclaimer on the title or anything!!!!

I'm thinking class action suit.

Except that no one stole their name, someone bought their company which they had coincidentally named after themselves.  Cute sarcasm Mike but HUUUUUUUGE difference.

[sick dawg]

 

[Zinc]

I kind of look at the whole thing, cloned, recreation, what ever you want to call it, wether it be made with vintage tin, or "chinese sheetmetal" as just a substitute to fill the desire of having something  that I desire, thats out of my price range for a so called "original", or something of limited production, that my chances of one ever coming up for sale are slim!, so a cloned car fits the bill for many people, it's just the ones caught up in some preordained thinking, that cars must be numbers matching, all original, that clones represent a threat to originality, values, etc, a lot of hogwash!,or the best one is "the "magic" of the original is lost on a clone", give me a break, what "magic", how can you tell when your sitting in, driving a clone, tribute, recreation etc, that it's different than a so called original, I don't get it, what uphoria are you on to think like this, and numbers, who cares, only the ones that perertrate the myth that "numbers" mean something care, yeah! they care about how much money some dope is willing to spend "extra" for numbers!

[ClassicAuto]

Thanks for the welcome!  By the way....I believe credit for the "continuation car" goes to Unique Performance and Shelby.   In working on this project for 2 1/2 years I did not expect everyone to embrace the idea.  I guess from my side and those you have ordered one is being a new body, new engine, new everything.....it is not some old six cylinder car rehab'd into a muscle car.  It has no previous life, it is new!  The only thing one could argue about the "flawlessly cloned hemi 'cuda" is that it was another car before you "cloned" it.  Just my opinion!

Ghoste, as for the body, it is a GM licensed part, welded to today's weld standard and again like it or not GM has licensed it.  One thing Ghoste, you mentioned the word "stole" as in stole their name.  The owners of Yenko legally own it, again right, wrong or indifferent they legally own it.  At least they are trying to do something with the Yenko family and give something back to Don's legacy.  I do not see anyone else out there attempting to do anything in Don's honor!

BTW Rallyemike....i liked the dodge brothers thing.........

[71gtx]

Ya know what really pisses me off is that after the Dodge brothers died, they kept using the name ! Ya ! Like, they were really Dodges after that ! How can they get away with it ? I didnt know they had died. Nobody told me. There was no disclaimer on the title or anything!!!!

I'm thinking class action suit.

In 1928, Chrysler acquired the Dodge Brothers company,      no can do

[kylem4711]

thats weird...

its not even a good idea because its illogical

[Ghoste]

Jim, again giving you the benfit of the doubt on what a magazine writer hands the editor but the article mentions absolutely nothing that I can see of the Yenko family being involved.  If they are then I would of course retract the "stole" comment.  Also again, when mentioning the comparison to Dodge Brothers, I would remind you that Chrysler purchased a business that the brothers has named after themselves.  He didn't go out and tell the guys in his marketing department to go ahead and sell Dodge cars because those two knuckleheads are dead and they can't stop me.
Honestly Jim, the only thing in the entire article that rankled me was the final paragraph.  They quoted you as saying that the car wasn't a clone, rebody, custom, or a tribute, it is the real thing because GM says so.  Perhaps it's a matter of semantics because I see it as a little of all of those things.  It may be licensed by Gm and endorsed by Don Yenko's surviving family but to me it's a reproduction.

[hemihead]

Thanks for the welcome!  By the way....I believe credit for the "continuation car" goes to Unique Performance and Shelby.   In working on this project for 2 1/2 years I did not expect everyone to embrace the idea.  I guess from my side and those you have ordered one is being a new body, new engine, new everything.....it is not some old six cylinder car rehab'd into a muscle car.  It has no previous life, it is new!  The only thing one could argue about the "flawlessly cloned hemi 'cuda" is that it was another car before you "cloned" it.  Just my opinion!

Ghoste, as for the body, it is a GM licensed part, welded to today's weld standard and again like it or not GM has licensed it.  One thing Ghoste, you mentioned the word "stole" as in stole their name.  The owners of Yenko legally own it, again right, wrong or indifferent they legally own it.  At least they are trying to do something with the Yenko family and give something back to Don's legacy.  I do not see anyone else out there attempting to do anything in Don's honor!

BTW Rallyemike....i liked the dodge brothers thing.........

So if these are brand new cars shouldn't they have to be manufactured to current safety and emission standards ?
And as far as the Yenko family doing something with their name , I don't think it is as noble an idea as " give something back to Don's legacy " .
What kind of euphoria are you living in ? It has all to do with supplying more old  men with too much money a cheaper toy than an orginal . Just another way to pry some money out of someone's wallet .

[RallyeMike]

Except that no one stole their name, someone bought their company which they had coincidentally named after themselves.  Cute sarcasm Mike but HUUUUUUUGE difference.

Neither the (Dodge Bros/Yenko) names were stolen. Someone bought the rights to (Dodge Bros/Yenko). Both (Dodge Bros/Yenko) named their product after themselves. Both (Dodge Bros/Yenko) are dead. (Dodge Bros/Yenko) have nothing to do with the new product.  No real differences in situation. 

Anyway..... my original point, perhaps less than clear, being: Neither current product should stand on the historical merits of the past brand-name-owners name, as they have nothing to do with it anymore. They are what they are now, not what they were. Same for the Charger name tag.

[Ghoste]

I had already recanted on the implication that the Yenko part of this rant was "pirated".  However, I still see a huge difference between buying a manufacturing enterprise and continuing to sell those manufactured goods year after year and buying the rights to copy a custom stripe package from a former car dealer.  Maybe it's semantics or maybe not but I still think that a clone is a clone is a clone.

[71charger_fan]

If they were doing this with '68 'Cuda fastbacks, '70 'Cuda, '70 Challenger, '68 Charger, or '71 Charger, I'd already be figuring out how to finance buying one. Especially if I could get it with modern fuel injection, disk brakes, climate control, and a nice sound system that didn't require a hacksaw and a file to install.

Call it what you want, it would be a nice car with no hidden rust, no worn out wiring, no previous owner's funk. I finally had to strip the interior of my '71 and wash all the trim, front and back, including replacing the upholstry, to get the smell of cigarettes out of it. That crap gets everywhere.

[Ghoste]

I didn't say it wasn't a nice, in fact it is probably a great car.  I just don't agree that it's a genuine Yenko or even a real 1969 Camaro.  It is a reproduction.  If I hire someone to make a perfect copy of a famous painting there is no pretense about it.  One is the original and the other is a forging even if the forger is a descendant of the original artist.

[Death1970Proof]

I don't see anything special about any clone . Sure it great that someone took the time and effort to build it but it doesn't have the same magic as an original . The worst part is when somebody tries to pass it off or sell it as an original .

I agree to a point here. The originals are nice but you have got to take into consideration that not everybody can afford a hemi car,superbird,daytona,r/t or vice versa. Sometimes a clone is the only way make someone's dream come true 

A coronet 500 is everybit as cool to me as any superbee IMO...

[NMike]

Deluxe Body Shell:

(Includes Basic Body Shell listed above plus all sheet metal. **)
      * Coupe Deluxe Body Shell                                                                   
          o STD                                                                                         $15,003
          o RS                                                                                           $15,103
          o SS                                                                                            $15,013
          o RS/SS                                                                                      $15,113

dammed i'd be all over that if  it were a 69 hemi charger continuation series car

[bull]

I have a question relating to this topic. If companies like Goodmark and B/E&A make Charger parts with Chrysler part numbers and symbols that are indistinguishable from the original stuff are they genuine Chrysler parts? I mean Chrysler farmed out the production of a lot of the stuff that went on our cars back in the day so does the 40-year time span between now and the time those parts makers built that stuff make B/E&A's stuff any less genuine than the original parts? In other words, since they are making parts that are identical to the originals that have Chrysler part numbers and symbols like the originals, they in essence are original parts are they not?

[Mike DC]

 
Modern manufacturing can reproduce an original 80-year-old baseball card that is indistinguishable from the original ones too. 

Do we expect buyers to (knowingly) pay the same bazillion dollars for the new ones that they'd pay for a vintage original?

   
--------------------------------------------------------------


I'd love to have a brand-new repro Yenko Camaro or HemiCuda as much as the next guy. 

But you can't remanufacture the collectibility that a 40-year-old item has earned over time.  Not in a basball card, not in a Luke Skywalker figure, not in a Beatles LP, and not in a '69 Camaro.   

[Tilar]

I have a question relating to this topic. If companies like Goodmark and B/E&A make Charger parts with Chrysler part numbers and symbols that are indistinguishable from the original stuff are they genuine Chrysler parts?

Absolutely not. They are reproductions of the original genuine Chrysler parts. You could say that they are genuine original Goodmark parts made to look like original Chrysler parts.

Same as these Yenko Camaro look alikes that Mr. Barber is building.  It would surprise me if the law even allows it to be titled as a Chevrolet Camaro. It should be titled as a "Classic Automotive Restoration Specialists, Inc. Camaro" or whatever name he chose.

[Ghoste]

If they were the same, BEA and the other vendors would be asking the same prices for these parts as Tony D'Agostino asks for NOS versions of the same and the high dollar restorers would not waste the time scouring the planet for NOS parts.