Rockers ( oh its WORSE) assembly.

[mally69]

my goodness ...

this borad and moparts has more in common that you want to think , or admit   

No where close to moparts, I am a member of both.   Now, if you don't have anything positive to say on my thread, then don't post anything at all. Do you understand what I am saying.....  .  Life would be a bit smoother, so lets leave all the  out and stay on the topic.

[firefighter3931]

Another option with the least amount of pain to your wallet would be to simply find another block and transfer your existing rotating assembly over. 



Ron

[BLAM]

Mally it cost me $80 for a sonic check.

I am with Ron on this one if your block needs a sleave I would start looking for another block.  I have found sleaving to be the least economical path in todays market unless it is a numbers matching build up.

[mally69]

Mally it cost me $80 for a sonic check.

I am with Ron on this one if your block needs a sleave I would start looking for another block.  I have found sleaving to be the least economical path in todays market unless it is a numbers matching build up.

Thanks guys, I am just going to have it sonic checked and bore it 60 over. The reason is, its the most inexpensive way to fix my engine plus no matter what its going to need to be bored anyhow  so why not just bore it and be done    Ill let you know how it goes and post pics.

[Steve P.]

Hey Mally, some blocks have overheating issues when opened up over .040. This is why we are pushing the sonic test. If your block has too much core shift it may be a problem. I can think of 2 blocks right now that are heating up due to thin walls. It could be more costly in the long run. If you bore it .060 over and buy pistons for it and then heat up you have spent money on machining a bad block and bought .060 pistons that you WON'T want to use again...

Think it over buddy...   

[firefighter3931]

Thanks guys, I am just going to have it sonic checked and bore it 60 over. The reason is, its the most inexpensive way to fix my engine plus no matter what its going to need to be bored anyhow  so why not just bore it and be done  

Well i can't see buying new pistons and boring your existing block as being the most economical approach seeing as you allready have pistons and any block you use will have to be bored out anyway. I prefer to keep them overbored as little as possible....a .030 overbore is better than a .060 overbore for many reasons.

Steve makes some very good points :

Hey Mally, some blocks have overheating issues when opened up over .040. This is why we are pushing the sonic test. If your block has too much core shift it may be a problem. I can think of 2 blocks right now that are heating up due to thin walls. It could be more costly in the long run. If you bore it .060 over and buy pistons for it and then heat up you have spent money on machining a bad block and bought .060 pistons that you WON'T want to use again...

Think it over buddy...

Personally, i'd look for a virgin bore late model 440 out of a C-body that hasn't been abused and build that. All you need is the block and main caps....should be easy (and cheap enough) to find. 



Ron

[Musicman]

I would say that if you can find a block for less than the cost of new pistons etc... maybe an old junker lawn ornament, salvage yard, whatever... go for it obviously  that's a no brainer. Other than that, you do what you have to do... as long as everything checks out by the numbers. You wouldn't be the first, and you won't be the last. Remember however that there can be a good deal of difference from one block to the next, so there is always the possibility that you may bring your block to the shop only to find that the numbers won't support the build... who knows, it's a crap shoot.

[mally69]

 

[General_01]

I would just get a different block. I see blocks on Craigslist for anywhere from $350-$750 here in Mpls. I think .060 on a street engine is do-able, but personally, I would be waayyy more comfortable with a .030 block. My 440 is .040 over already and I told my cousin years ago that if anything happened that I might need to rebore I would just find another block.

[mally69]

I just have a hard time trying to understand why 60 over is so bad. Just supposing the sonic check comes out good. If I do go the route by getting another block then, what do I do with the one I have becuase it will clean up at 50.  Just curious.

[Steve P.]

Don't forget motor home 440s.  I have one with very low miles on it that checked out perfect. I bought it on ebay as a PICK UP ONLY for $112.00...   

Just saw a complete 440, air cleaner to pan. Plus the 727 tranny for $650.00 on Craigslist Tampa.


Or you could go the other way and buy a new mega block and build a REAL MONSTER...   

[General_01]

Ask your machine shop if they know a racer who may want it. The issue arises from the fact that there is less metal to hold the heat(thinner walls) and not enough water going through the passages to take the heat away fast enough. Especially on the street.

[Steve P.]

I just have a hard time trying to understand why 60 over is so bad. Just supposing the sonic check comes out good. If I do go the route by getting another block then, what do I do with the one I have because it will clean up at 50.  Just curious.

Imagine you have a torch and 2 different thicknesses of steel. One is 1/8" and the other is 1/2". If you hold the torch up to the 1/2" steel it will cherry in a minute or so. If you hold it up to the 1/8" it will cherry real quick. Well that is an exaggeration, but it makes the point. The thinner the cylinder wall is the faster it heats up. The water doesn't move and cool fast enough to keep the cylinder walls cool. 

This will differ with the amount of core shift and your cooling system and your tune and your elevation and your gas and your normal ambient temps and, and, and.......  Many 440s out there ARE .060 over. I have heard of .080....   BUT,,,,, most of these are race only blocks and not in the desert or Florida or run in cars with A/C. 

I have to say that the best bang for your buck is keeping what you have and sleeving the bad cylinder. You could spend much more looking for a good block and going to get it. That one may turn out to be bad. Then another. Then pistons, align bore, and on and on.....  You have pistons and all the other machine work done on your motor. One sleeve and you are back in the saddle.....

[mally69]

I just have a hard time trying to understand why 60 over is so bad. Just supposing the sonic check comes out good. If I do go the route by getting another block then, what do I do with the one I have because it will clean up at 50.  Just curious.

Imagine you have a torch and 2 different thicknesses of steel. One is 1/8" and the other is 1/2". If you hold the torch up to the 1/2" steel it will cherry in a minute or so. If you hold it up to the 1/8" it will cherry real quick. Well that is an exaggeration, but it makes the point. The thinner the cylinder wall is the faster it heats up. The water doesn't move and cool fast enough to keep the cylinder walls cool. 

This will differ with the amount of core shift and your cooling system and your tune and your elevation and your gas and your normal ambient temps and, and, and.......  Many 440s out there ARE .060 over. I have heard of .080....   BUT,,,,, most of these are race only blocks and not in the desert or Florida or run in cars with A/C. 

I have to say that the best bang for your buck is keeping what you have and sleeving the bad cylinder. You could spend much more looking for a good block and going to get it. That one may turn out to be bad. Then another. Then pistons, align bore, and on and on.....  You have pistons and all the other machine work done on your motor. One sleeve and you are back in the saddle.....

Ok, I understand. That sounds like a good deal ill tell the machinist to order me a sleave, bore it hone it, and ill assemble it and hit the streets.

[Musicman]

Yes, unfortunately, blocks will vary quite a bit... you could have a block with good walls that will machine .060 over and still be better than many .030 overs. Or you could find another block check it and find out it's not worth doing anything with... it's a crap shoot... So maybe a sleeve is a better option for you... only you can make that desicion. I do feel that everyone here has done a good job of offering and explaining the various options open to you however... so there it is, I think all the bases have been covered, it's up to you my friend.

 

[mally69]

Yes, I thank everyone here for explaining this stuff, and giving me their input. It is definatley very helpfull information you guys give me to try and make the right decision. Its very much appretiated.
Thanks, Justin. 

Ill post up the pics of parts and what my final decisions are.

[mally69]

Ok I got my new head in the other day. I have one question though, Just for the heck of it I took a can of brake clean and sprayed it in the exhuast and intake ports to see if any came out from around the valve, and it did. I was almost certain that nothing should leak out from around the valve period. Is that correct or was that a dumb test ?

[firefighter3931]

It needs a valvejob. 


Ron

[69chargerR/T]

It needs a valvejob. 


Ron

It doesn't seem right that when you buy a new set of heads for 900.00 and it needs a valve job I have heard this before that new heads need a valve job why is this, it just doesn't seem right to me that after spending 900.00 bucks on heads then I have to send them out for a valve job How much does a valve job cost today ?? Maybe someone can explain this to me   Alan

[mally69]

It needs a valvejob. 


Ron
[/quote


It doesn't seem right that when you buy a new set of heads for 900.00 and it needs a valve job I have heard this before that new heads need a valve job why is this, it just doesn't seem right to me that after spending 900.00 bucks on heads then I have to send them out for a valve job How much does a valve job cost today ?? Maybe someone can explain this to me   Alan

I also don't understand why that is, and I agree, you shouldn't have to have a new valve job being that they are brand new.. Actually I had a new valve job on my INDY heads before I received them. I have heard that it has happend with edelbrock heads also, I guess all new heads could have a better valve job to be perfectly correct. I mean the brake cleaner comes through them, but doesn't pour through them it takes a few minutes for it to turn wet around the side of the valves. I am going to have them touched up.

[doctorpimp]

Don't know why they wouldn't seal right out of the box.
Makes sense having them looked at.  For the price of these heads, you could afford to have them ported etc too.

[hutch]

Did it just run right out or drip out?  Break cleaner is a pretty good solvent and might have a lighter density than fuel. You can use break cleaner to break rusted nuts off bolts or clean off nasty carbon because it can get into tight places. Run the same test with a cup of gas and see if it runs out.  I dont know if you can get valves 100% air tight because they dont have a gasket. 

[defiance]

Yeah, reading your first post I got the impression that there was immediate drippage.  I'm no expert, but if it took a minute to seep through, it may be sealing like it's supposed to.

[firefighter3931]

It needs a valvejob. 


Ron
[/quote


It doesn't seem right that when you buy a new set of heads for 900.00 and it needs a valve job I have heard this before that new heads need a valve job why is this, it just doesn't seem right to me that after spending 900.00 bucks on heads then I have to send them out for a valve job How much does a valve job cost today ?? Maybe someone can explain this to me   Alan

I also don't understand why that is, and I agree, you shouldn't have to have a new valve job being that they are brand new.. Actually I had a new valve job on my INDY heads before I received them. I have heard that it has happend with edelbrock heads also, I guess all new heads could have a better valve job to be perfectly correct. I mean the brake cleaner comes through them, but doesn't pour through them it takes a few minutes for it to turn wet around the side of the valves. I am going to have them touched up.

Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. Anything that is assembly line mass produced will have some flaws....this is common to all the head manufacturers...not just 440 source.

Will they work out of the box....Sure they will. Will you be leaving some power on the table....absolutely. Face it, the Source heads are very inexpensive but some QC needs to be addressed. The maching and some of the hardware could use upgrading, inmo. 

When building a performance engine it's important to make sure things are Right....otherwise you will pay later with a potential failure and diminished performance.

My E-heads were not perfect out of the box.....I spent $400 on a quality valvejob and some mild porting. The guide clearance was also checked and a few were corrected. I leave nothing to chance. 



Ron

[Musicman]

I mean the brake cleaner comes through them, but doesn't pour through them it takes a few minutes for it to turn wet around the side of the valves. I am going to have them touched up.

Wouldn't hurt to have them touched up of course, but it doesn't sound like you really have a big problem. I wouldn't get to excited if it took a "few minutes" for the brake cleaner to weep past the seats... Chamber pressure is going to seat the valves even tighter. Now if you poured gas or alcohol in the chamber and it immediately came running out the other side, that would be an obvious issue. If your really concerned, seal them up and run a hydrostatic test on the chambers.



Mike ( maybe I'll do that with mine just for fun )