CASE FOR TWO 68 CHARGER 500 PILOT/TEST CARS

[XS29J8]

Hi everyone, I'm a bit of an aero car fan. originally from the INDY area and have talked to many of you over the years, you may not remember or know me but much info was talked about and probably lost or forgotten over the years.

I remember talking about two 68 Charger HEMI 4spd Charger 500 pilot or test cars, one famous one was Maroon or Burgundy and later painted orange for resale by Chrysler. The other was wrecked during testing at the proving grounds and probably was destroyed or possibly sold also. The color of this car may have been a light blue or white. These were both equipped with factory blue printed HEMI #'s matching engines.

I just talked to the test driver for these cars plus he tested the #71 mule car Daytona. He also drove and tested 1 of every model Chrysler offered each year to get braking distance, fuel economy, performance etc.

He then bought the Charger 500 from Chrysler after they painted it orange(long story) and made a 190 MPH street racer out of it. I said I thought Jerry Service was the owner and he said he sold it to Jerry and it was a #'s matching car at that time. He has some wild stories and the more I talked to him the more I believe what he is saying.

His name is John Weibel he's 59 years old and he OK'd my using his name and info on the board. If Doug , Danny, or Geno would like to talk to him, I have a phone #. He would probably give you some info that you may want or need.

My question is, have any of you heard of this gentleman? He seems to know things I've only heard from other hardcore wing fans.

Thanks
Steve

Possible VINs for 68 Charger 500 Prototypes could be XS or XX    XX29J8B360711 E74 red white XX29J8B360719 E74 black black

Additional Thread Info  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,113696.0.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95654.0.html

Winged Warrior Facebook Page  https://www.facebook.com/groups/283906888323261/

[Aero426]

I am going from memory here, but my recollection is that Jerry bought the prototype 500 out of long term storage from Chrysler in 1972.

I've never met John, but I'm sure Milt Wood would know him.  Milt was a driver-mechanic  at the PG and was there in '70, although he did not get to drive any of the race car stuff.   He remembers the race stuff being there and the track being closed off.   He retired a few years ago and is still in Chelsea.   He owns a Bird and Bob Brevak's 72 USAC Charger.   

This fellow would have been 21 or 22 years old at the time the mule car was there.    Milt's about the same age and should be able to verify if there was a second 500 street car.   

[XS29J8]

Hi Doug, please ask Milt if you would before I start talking to John about this again. He said the 500 he purchased from Chrysler was originally a burgundy color not offered by the factory?? Would you know the paint code on the Jerry Service car? He also knows where the car is today as I guess Jerry has sold it.

Thanks!

Steve

[nascarxx29]

I got the vin 360711 from the red car that also shows white showing.From a previous color under the hood. which I think was the Mule color . Color RR1.
Red
Burgundy Metallic Maroon Metallic

[nascarxx29]

1968 Colors

CODE
COLOR
DODGE NAME
PLYMOUTH NAME

AA1
Silver
Silver Metallic Silver Metallic
BB1 Black Black Black
CC1
Blue
  Medium Blue Metallic
DD1
Blue
  Pale Blue Metallic
EE1
Blue
Dark Blue Metallic Dark Blue Metallic
FF1
Green
Light Green Metallic Light Green Metallic
GG1
Green
Racing Green Metallic Dark Green Metallic
HH1 Gold   Light Gold 
JJ1 Gold Medium Gold Metallic Medium Gold Metallic
LL1 Turquoise Medium Turquoise Metallic Light Turquoise Metallic
MM1 Brown Bronze Metallic Medium Bronze Metallic
PP1
Red
Red Red
QQ1 Blue Bright Blue Metallic Bright Blue Metallic
[[[RR1]]]
[[ Red]]
[[Burgundy Metallic Maroon Metallic]]
SS1 Yellow Yellow Yellow
TT1 Green Medium Green Metallic Medium Green Metallic
UU1 Blue Light Blue Metallic Light Blue Metallic
WW1  White White White
XX1
Beige
Beige Beige
YY1
Gold
Medium Tan Metallic Medium Tan Metallic
33 Red Bright Red 
999 special order

[XS29J8]

Thanks Dave, I'll ask him where the lighter color came from if he checks out with Doug. He said he had the car built for speed with a 2.45 special built DANA gear, 32" tall Goodyear INDY Bluestreak tires on all 4 corners and 1 1/2 inch clearance from the ground to the skidplate. Says he would race Ferrari, Corvette 427, etc etc from a 100 mph rolling start and leave em in the dust. I believe he bought the car in 71 for 2600.00 and had to talk his boss into making sure he got it instead of one of the Chrysler VP at the time.

Steve

[Aero426]

Hi Doug, please ask Milt if you would before I start talking to John about this again. He said the 500 he purchased from Chrysler was originally a burgundy color not offered by the factory?? Would you know the paint code on the Jerry Service car? He also knows where the car is today as I guess Jerry has sold it.

Thanks!

Steve

As far as I know, Jerry still owns it.   I'd be really surprised if he let it go.

I just put a message in to Milt on the subject.   Both he and Jerry live right in Chelsea.

[daytonalo]

Great stuff !!!!!!!!! Why not ask him to join our Forum I'll send a check !!

[69bronzeT5]

The other was wrecked during testing at the proving grounds and probably was destroyed or possibly sold also. The color of this car may have been a light blue or white.

Anybody know what happened to this car or any pics?

[69_500]

Steve, I haven't heard of the gentleman mentioned either. However if he wants to talk about 500's to someone, drop him my number. Or drop me his in a PM. I'll gladly shoot the breeze with anyone who likes to talk about 500's on the phone. Heck to be honest if I'm not dialing a phone to talk to someone about a 500 or a Daytona I'm not dialing the phone. Those are about the only times I pick up a phone and use it.

[69_500]

I'm thinking that Jerry still owns the car though. I would have a very hard time thinking that he would sell that car after all of these years. I know it would command a huge $$$ amount, but he has had that car forever. I don't think he would part with that car until he is 6 feet under. could be wrong though. If it did by some chance happen to go to a new owner, I'd love to find out where it went to. Love that car.

[XS29J8]

I'm thinking that Jerry still owns the car though. I would have a very hard time thinking that he would sell that car after all of these years. I know it would command a huge $$$ amount, but he has had that car forever. I don't think he would part with that car until he is 6 feet under. could be wrong though. If it did by some chance happen to go to a new owner, I'd love to find out where it went to. Love that car.

Hi Danny, He said something about Chrysler Historical buying it? I just sent you a PM, let us know what you think...........

Steve

[Aero426]

I got a response from Milt.   He called Jerry and spoke to him today.   

Jerry still owns the prototype Charger 500.    It was originally burgundy and later was painted red for color photos.    He did buy it from John.

Jerry says it did not have the extra tall ratio rear axle and special tires on it when he bought it.    It appears to him that the rear end has never been changed.

As far as a second 500 prototype, I guess it's possible, but it's never been mentioned before this.   Milt says he started at the PG when the Daytona stuff was going on.    A case can be made that there were many unusual cars at the PG that didn't make it out alive.   Jerry's car remains the only one known.   They also did have Charger 500 stock cars running out there.   

[nascarxx29]

Thats good to hear .What about the white undehood color in Jerrys car.Wasnt white the dictated mule color as the taped headlight mule69 daytona was white.Which is a car that never came to the surface

[Aero426]

Thats good to hear .What about the white undehood color in Jerrys car.Wasnt white the dictated mule color as the taped headlight mule69 daytona was white.Which is a car that never came to the surface

Never heard anything about white being anything dictated.   Plus the white Daytona with the fake headlights made out of tape was just for press photos.   I asked Milt to follow up about Jerry's white underhood.    The undercarriage of Jerry's car is white.  I believe that's just a show car thing he did years ago.    Personally, I don't think the white on Jerry's car has any significance to its time at Chrysler.

[XS29J8]

I got a response from Milt.   He called Jerry and spoke to him today.   

Jerry still owns the prototype Charger 500.    It was originally burgundy and later was painted red for color photos.    He did buy it from John.

Jerry says it did not have the extra tall ratio rear axle and special tires on it when he bought it.    It appears to him that the rear end has never been changed.

As far as a second 500 prototype, I guess it's possible, but it's never been mentioned before this.   Milt says he started at the PG when the Daytona stuff was going on.    A case can be made that there were many unusual cars at the PG that didn't make it out alive.   Jerry's car remains the only one known.   They also did have Charger 500 stock cars running out there.   

I'm glad John does have some credibility. I may have misunderstood his statements about Jerry selling the car, but I'm not sure what he would have been referring to otherwise(It's hell gettin old, can't remember much of anything). Danny is going to call him and hopefully he can fill some info in as he was there before Milt. Any info is good from those testing days !

The gearset to the DANA was special made for John and installed in the original housing. I'm sure it was removed before he sold the car to Jerry. He will give you some names that were big in the Woodward street wars and Drag Racing as well as NASCAR at the time. He says he operated a top fuel team (chevy) thruout the 70's after leaving Chrysler.

Thanks Doug!

Steve

[69_500]

Spoke to Jon for quite some time tonight. Very interesting gentleman. Thanks for the contact information Steve.

It was pretty funny when he was talking about how he find its funny how everyone that has a 500 at a show sets them up stock. With the front end a little higher than the rear end. He said, if they wanted to drive that car over 155 mph, they need to get that front end down to withing 2 inches of the ground. Then they would feel good at speed.

As far as the rear end goes. He was thinking that they might have swapped out the entire rear end on the car with a rear end from a C body (I'm thinking 8 3/4"). And that they special ordered a gear set of 2.45 to put in the car for high speed runs. I forget the company he said made the gears for them. He said he drove that car from his house to Chelsea on I-94 (31 miles one way), and used to make it to work in under 16 minutes with traffic. Said it was a blast to drive once it got up to 150 mph.

[XS29J8]

Danny, that is the type of story he was telling me. He has a book full of good and entertaining information it sounds like. Hope you can post more of what he had to say.

Doug has Milt talking to him as well, I'd sure like to see a video of that conversation.

Steve

[moparstuart]

Danny, that is the type of story he was telling me. He has a book full of good and entertaining information it sounds like. Hope you can post more of what he had to say.

Doug has Milt talking to him as well, I'd sure like to see a video of that conversation.

Steve

we need to get this guy to come to a national meet , that information is awesome , would love to here more from him ! 

[Aero426]

According to Jerry Service, his prototype 500 was not at the Proving Grounds very much.  It was used for press photos and was not a test car.  John found it in Highland Park (the storage part) around 70-71.     Jerry and Milt Wood think the alleged other car went to the impact lab and into a barrier.  Milt will ask around if anyone else remembers it.

[69_500]

Your correct Doug. He said he didn't remember driving Jerrys' 500 around at chelsea at all. He did say that he bought the car around the Lynch Road. Said he had went over there to buy a HEMI car, knowing they had several that they used for test drives that were going to be up for sale. After looking around he said he didn't see anything he was really interested in. And that was including several HEMI E bodies he said, but they weren't in any "good" color combinations in his mind. Then he went inside, to return some keys to the gentleman in there, and saw a car in the corner with a car cover on it. Asked if he could take a peek, and saw the 500. Asked if anyone had claimed that car yet, and the gentleman looked in the file cabinet and said "not yet". So he put $100 down on the car, and came back later to pay the rest.

Side note, when I talked to him he said he had just got off of the phone from talking to Milt.

[tan top]

wow this is a awesome thread ..... guys would love to here more on this 

[Aero426]

Milt Wood had lunch with John Pointer last week.   Pointer was the aerodynamics guy who worked at the Proving Grounds.   He is responsible for building up the red #71 Daytona mule with the hand made nose and wing.

Anyway,  for what its worth, John did not remember anything about a second 68 Charger 500 prototype, or it being at the Proving Grounds.      Over the years, John has been able to pass on a lot of information. 

[69_500]

  Makes one think huh. I haven't ever heard of a case for 2 of the pilot cars.

It is odd though that he thought it was blue. As I have heard several times that a VERY early VIN 500 was blue, and out in california now undergoing a restoration. However I have yet to come up with any solid proof of the car. No one seems to know the VIN but the few people who have told me about the car all say its VERY EARLY. Know anything about that one Doug?

[Aero426]

One car that comes to mind was a Hemi Charger 500 press car that was stolen and recovered stripped in LA.  I thought that was a blue car.   That one allegedly was sent to Nichels to be converted to a stock car.

Here's the deal as I see it.  Call it what you want - but the message board community is kind of a new breed of car club unto itself whether we call it that or not.   With a new group of enthusiasts looking at these cars, topics are coming back to the surface that have pretty much been put to bed a long time ago.      There are a number of threads on this and other boards questioning history and suggesting that there is some new material out there - and perhaps that history needs to be rewritten.   That's not a slam on anyone who brought up the topics - but these things have been discussed before, and before forty years went by.    It's easy to take what one guy says while reminiscing and run with it.   The question is, when someone tells you of a new revelation, will anyone else who was there (and not conveniently dead) confirm the story?

[69_500]

Ah so the blue car is supposedly the one that was stolen off of the dealership lot, and later recovered minus the engine right? And was then sold to Cotton Owens I though? And then was used as a mock car to mount the nose cones on at Creative Industries? Same car? If so I thought that car was R4 red, with the cloth insert seats, power windows, and a white tail stripe. And that it was restored by a gentleman who lives not too far from where Cotton Owens shop is.

[Aero426]

Ah so the blue car is supposedly the one that was stolen off of the dealership lot, and later recovered minus the engine right? And was then sold to Cotton Owens I though? And then was used as a mock car to mount the nose cones on at Creative Industries? Same car? If so I thought that car was R4 red, with the cloth insert seats, power windows, and a white tail stripe. And that it was restored by a gentleman who lives not too far from where Cotton Owens shop is.

The one that was a theft recovery was a press PR car.  It was thought to have been sent to Nichels.  Too much missing to put back on the street.  Again, as a story, it's one of those legends floating around out there.

[Fitz73Chrgr]

Does this 68 prototype 500 have a 68 tailpanel or a 69?

[Ghoste]

69.

[nascarxx29]

I have magazine where the press got loaned to them a hemi 500.It got stolen and found stripped in Watts CA .And the car was at Nichels and returned and used for the #88 daytona

[pettybird]

did chrysler have a problem with that?

the 440+6 road runner test car (the ronnie sox vs. the journalist ad car) had its manifold and carb setup stolen a day or two before the test runs...  the journalist had it at a motel and some guys came along in the night and took it...  that was retold in hot rod a couple years back by the author. 


funny how I remember so vividly that Jerry roped off his car, put mirrors underneath it, etc WAY back when.  like, no one else did. 

[Moparmatty]

Does this 68 prototype 500 have a 68 tailpanel or a 69?

It has a '68 tail light panel.

[nascarxx29]

.Originally the car was a (68 charger).Said by Frank Wylie retired director of public relations for dodge division.He states we loaned that car to a magazine in los angeles for testing.It was stolen striipped of everything.and the car was found in the Watts section of LA.That car was taken back to Nichels engineering in Highland IN and converted into what is known as the prototype dodge daytona .The other car that 69 500 mentioned was the cotton owens car that was first to be fitted with the wingcar body parts

[XS29J8]

One car that comes to mind was a Hemi Charger 500 press car that was stolen and recovered stripped in LA.  I thought that was a blue car.   That one allegedly was sent to Nichels to be converted to a stock car.

Here's the deal as I see it.  Call it what you want - but the message board community is kind of a new breed of car club unto itself whether we call it that or not.   With a new group of enthusiasts looking at these cars, topics are coming back to the surface that have pretty much been put to bed a long time ago.      There are a number of threads on this and other boards questioning history and suggesting that there is some new material out there - and perhaps that history needs to be rewritten.   That's not a slam on anyone who brought up the topics - but these things have been discussed before, and before forty years went by.    It's easy to take what one guy says while reminiscing and run with it.   The question is, when someone tells you of a new revelation, will anyone else who was there (and not conveniently dead) confirm the story?

Not sure where you're coming from Doug, I have never heard any one put this discussion to rest.....I have found another Chrysler employee who Milt and Jerry both know with some info I didn't know and you didn't know. He is still alive?.......I also thought Jerry basically bought the Charger 500 new or was the first owner.

I appreciate all the info you and Danny and Geno and Dave have at your fingertips, but we still need an open mind and the ability to keep investigating and documenting  or History will be changed after we are gone. You guys are awesome with your quick answers and ability to call a spade a spade, but don't throw the hobbyist out with the " these things were put to bed a long time ago " answers.

I was hoping to see an answer to why the 68 500 has white paint in the fenderwell area also, did Jerry do this for show purposes? I too remember the mirrors under the car in magazines and such. I had thought the original maroon charger and the white charger may have both been wrecked and both combined to build one car. Now here is a hypothisis for you to ponder...........this is not a statement of fact just an idea of why the white paint on Jerry's 500 and quickie repaint by Chrysler for picture purposes?


Thanks for all the great info!

Steve

[Aero426]

Steve, what I am suggesting is that we take the claim of a second prototype 1968 Charger 500 with a grain of salt.  I guess it's possible there was another 500 at the PG for some reason, but the same can be said for lots of cars.     

I certainly don't know it all,  but when I say "put to bed", Jerry's 500 was discussed going back into the early 80's when the car was out and about.   There has never been any discussion of a second car.    I realize you personally heard it come out of the guys mouth.

When you are fortunate enough to meet people who were there,  be careful not to fall into the trap of, "The older I get, the faster I was".   I've seen myself do it.   A couple sentences are all it takes to really spice up an old war story. 

As to the white paint, the answer I got via email was not clear.  I always thought it was for show purposes, but I don't want to say anything incorrect.   I will make another pass at it. 

[69_500]

Okay so now I am totally lost. The car that was stolen was supposedly a PR car? How many PR 500's were there then? 1 4 speed car which is a known car right? 1 AT car which is also a known car? The only other really early car I know of is the one that was converted to run on Propane, and was raced under the name Propane X. All 3 of these cars were R4 red, cloth insert seats, power windows, with white tail stripe. All identical other than 1 of them being an AT. Now the 4th car that fits this mold is the one that went to Cotton Owens after being stolen, and stripped of its engine, and was later used at Creative to test fit the nose cones. I think that one was a PR car as it is identically equiped as the other 3 I just listed. Or was there a blue car in there somewhere when all of the rest of them were R4 red?

[XS29J8]

Here is a link to the Dodge product information bulletin ......

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/_1968-Dodge-PIB-01.shtml?load_img=19

[odcics2]

We know that bulletin was superseded later in the year... 

As far as how many cars were considered "Press Cars" and loaned out for whatever reason, is there an actual, confirmed number??     

In the Hot Rod test, they had 3 cars, one of which was stolen, stripped, recovered and hauled to Nichels Engineering for conversion into a Charger 500 race car.
It was eventually updated to the "88" Daytona.   This is what PR chief Frank Wylie has stated in interviews from the 1980s and 1990s.     

One would think there were more than 3 cars loaned out, considering all the magazines doing coverage on the Charger 500.   

[Ghoste]

I still believe there was only a single prototype.  That document shows an intent to do something but until there is documentation to prove they actually made a second I have to remain on that side of the discussion.

[1970Moparmann]

Here is a link to the Dodge product information bulletin ......

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/_1968-Dodge-PIB-01.shtml?load_img=19

Very interesting...

[Ghoste]

Beyond that document though, what do we have?  Really have?  There are a number of documents from inside Chrysler indicating a plan to do something and then it never coming to pass.

[XS29J8]

Beyond that document though, what do we have?  Really have?  There are a number of documents from inside Chrysler indicating a plan to do something and then it never coming to pass.

Well, we do have a document many doubted existed.....I do believe the project was kicked down the road to the beginning run of 69 Chargers, but the project did materialize. Once again I have a hard time believing no 1968 4spd HEMI Chargers were ordered after June 1st 1968. I do believe the intent was for all 500s to be HEMI 4 spds and the goal was unatainable............

[Ghoste]

I think I agree with all of that too.

[Magnumcharger]

Does this 68 prototype 500 have a 68 tailpanel or a 69?

It has a '68 tail light panel.

[nascarxx29]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=4205.0

[Ghoste]

Which further confirms, no 68 tail panel.

[nascarxx29]

No signs of a 68 tail Panel .Vin is XS & 9 for the 69 year.Begining vin seq #360.    What I find interesting if the car started as a 69 .where the 69 reflectors openings reworked.or omitted in the panel stamping .And round 68 Marker light easier just requiring a round hole.And the color stated in magazines as a plum color a RR1 a 1968 .Burgundy metallic paint code  .It was originally burgundy and later was painted red for color photos

[Ghoste]

I don't think it started as a 69.

[69Charger500]

I would expect there was more than one prototype built...

I've managed Chrysler's prototype build programs for many years, and design verification testing typically requires multiple tests being performed concurrently to speed up development time.

Cars are relatively cheap to build, time is precious, so we build as many cars as it takes to complete all the testing in a given time frame.

They would have likely just been scrapped; I scrap over 2000 prototypes a year on average these days...

The Jerry Service car is a bit of an anomoly, because prototypes are not sold to the public due to lack of certification and non-production-level parts...  However, things were a little different back then, so exceptions were possible, just unlikely...

[Aero426]

Which further confirms, no 68 tail panel.

I always thought that particular car was born with a '68 tail panel, and updated with the '69 part during the conversion to a 500. 

[pettybird]

Someone has to start convincing Jerry to bring the car to next year's meet.  It's in his back yard...

[Ghoste]

Thats what I had thought too Doug.  I didn't mean it to read like it was never there, just that it is not a 68 tail panel on it now.

[nascarxx29]

Makes sense tail panel was updated .What about the doors 68 doors had there lock buttons further back near the end back.69- moved them up. also dash pad would be 68 type with point in the middle And add the reverse lights 68 had in tail lights

[Ghoste]

Man its so long now since I last saw the car I honestly can't remember how much (if any) 68 stuff was on the inside.

[nascarxx29]

In this article showing head on shot .I think I see the point of the dash of a 68 In the original magazine pictures door lock buttons are further back
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=4205.0

[Ghoste]

And your photo from page 1 of this thread shows the door lock buttons near the back.

[nascarxx29]

And checked many vintage pictures also 68 dash

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dodgedeora/sets/72157604512156428/

http://www.1969chargerregistry.com/gallery/press/pr_photo_69_charger_500?full=1