Ethanol Blend

[my73charger]

I have a question for our engine experts.  In Minnesota they are mandating that all gas sold in the state is at least 10% ethanol blend and by 2012 it will be increased to 20% blend.  How is this going to effect my 440?  I know that ethanol burns hotter.

[mally69]

Very interesting 

[Blown70]

I have a question for our engine experts.  In Minnesota they are mandating that all gas sold in the state is at least 10% ethanol blend and by 2012 it will be increased to 20% blend.  How is this going to effect my 440?  I know that ethanol burns hotter.

HOTTER?  Its an alcohol, should it not burn cooler?

[73chgrSE]

My parents said Va. has been doing that for a while but only the shell stations here in Ga. are doing it to my knowledge.  Why can't they make it 10% cheaper.

[Chatt69chgr]

I wss getting 30mpg in my company car with straight 87 octane gas.  With the mandated 10% blend, I am getting 28mpg. 

I have heard that the 20% blend destroys the catalytic converter.  Don't see how they will be able to mandate that blend.  It's really a money grab by big companies like Archer, Daniels, Midland and the like so they can make more money off corn.  Mandating the use of ethanol gives the appearance that the government is doing something about the gas situation.  In actuality, they have no energy policy at all.  In fact, mandating ethanol did nothing but raise the price of food products which is where corn should be used.  And don't forget that our good friends, the Saudi's, have only paid 17% of what they promised to support the Iraq war.  Meanwhile, they are doing nothing to lower the price of a barrel of oil.  I have felt for a long time that we should have been building nuclear plants as fast as we could cookie cutter them in.  Nothing wrong with wind and solar but to really add to the baseload, nuclear is the only viable solution.  The gov should have spent the last several years perfecting one nuc plant that would be the same one to be built everywhere.  One design means costs can be reduced because of economy of scale.  Also, any modifications woud be the same for all of them.  And you only have to train folks to run one type of plant.  Had we done this, we wouldn't be using up our precious corn to make ethanol to burn in cars.  I will admit that ethanol does make sense if you make it out of sugar cane like the Brazilians do (we can't do that) or make it out of switch grass which we can do.  More research needs to be done on this but I don't think the current administration is very interested in this approach.  The only place I have heard that is doing any research on this is the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. 
Most modern cars have aluminum heads and they can run on the 10% mix.  Unfortunately, I think the alcohol rusts steel and messes up rubber parts that were not designed for exposure to it.  I don't know what it does to paint surfaces.  So if we put 10% ethanol in our Charger fuel tanks, will it cause the inside of the tank to rust?  Will it hurt carburetors and fuel pumps?  I have no idea.  Does anybody know? 

[hemihead]

I don't see where it would do any converter damage as alcohol burns alot cleaner than gas . You also get the benefit of a little cleaner air. The price of fuel should go down as mixing it makes more using less gas . The only down side is anything made of corn will then go up because where someone can make a buck  , they will suck it dry . So you are back again to paying through the nose . But hopefully it will be American corn and the money will at least stay in this country . As far as Nuclear , ever hear of 3 Mile Island ? How about Chernobyle ? ( Sp)  When they tried stuff called Gasohol back in the 70's there were lots of cars that had problems with it .

[my73charger]

I am not interested in the political ramifications of this discussion, at least not in this thread.    My question is for the engine guys, i want to know if I can expect problems from a 20% blend of ethanol in my 440 and if there is anything I can do to eliminate problems.

[Blown70]

I am not interested in the political ramifications of this discussion, at least not in this thread.    My question is for the engine guys, i want to know if I can expect problems from a 20% blend of ethanol in my 440 and if there is anything I can do to eliminate problems.

Still interested in who told you etahol runs hotter?  Lower octace hotter it burns with fuel  meaning just gas.  HIGH octane fuel RUN COOL....

Methanol and  Ethanol Run/burn cooler than regular gasoline...... I WILL HAVE see some actual study to show me otherwise.

You run 2x the amount of methanol as you would gas.

1.6x if you run ethanol.....compared to gasoline.

My thinking you may need to run at 20% (ethanol) slightly more fuel through your motor.

[my73charger]

Actually I read it somewhere and I am not sure where, but I do remember reading it.  It somewhat annoys me that this is a mandated change rather than a free choice, but again that is a political discussion for another thread somewhere else.  My only concern is for how it may effect my 440 if I am unable to buy anything but 20% blended gasoline for an engine that I have stuck a lot of money into.  On a similar note, I read that burning this blend may actually void alot of warranties on cars not built for it.  Not sure on that either.  Just trying to plan ahead.

[Blown70]

Actually I read it somewhere and I am not sure where, but I do remember reading it.  It somewhat annoys me that this is a mandated change rather than a free choice, but again that is a political discussion for another thread somewhere else.  My only concern is for how it may effect my 440 if I am unable to buy anything but 20% blended gasoline for an engine that I have stuck a lot of money into.  On a similar note, I read that burning this blend may actually vois alot of warranties on cars not built for it.  Not sure onthat either.  Just trying to plan ahead.

Well they may have been wrong on it running hotter.   Been around A LOT of racing.... never heard that one before.

While I do agree with the mandated issue,  there could be much political crap we no longer have a choice over.  Esp. in minnesota, where you cannot even smoke in a BAR.... I am a non smoker but still think that is BS.

You may need to just check your fuel in the motor again, maybe hollow out your main jets just a bit.  Personally I do not see it ruining your Tank, most rubber ie, fuel line is being made to handle the e-OH

[suntech]

There ar no downsides with this at all!! You will have higher octane, so you will be able to higher compression, more advance etc. Yuo need to go up app 7% on jetting, to compensate, but that is an easy fix
More Horsepower!!!!

[mally69]

I have an engine that i have to run 93 octane but sheetz sells only 92 but it says ethanol with some kind of percentage, so is it actually better than the old 93   

[suntech]

I think you will be ok with it, because the MON should at leas be the same. Try it , and hear if it pings!!!

[73chgrSE]

Mine pings with anything less than 92, is that a problem? Other than for my wallet.

[mally69]

Mine pings with anything less than 92, is that a problem? Other than for my wallet.

That is what I am wondering about. If 92 octane ethanol mix would be equivilent to a 93 octane gasoline.  I don't even know If I am making any sense.

[firefighter3931]

Ethanol, from my understanding doesn't make as much power as Gas...so diluting the gas with ethanol will probably reduce the power output. Wintergrade fuel has ethanol and we all know how fuel economy and power diminishes during the winter driving season. 


Ron

[Paul G]

I can pass along what I have read on other forums about ethanol blended gas like E85 (85% alcohol and 15% gas). What they are saying is that E85 has a higher octane rating, but has a lower BTU output. You can retune your car to run on it and actually achieve greater horsepower because of the higher octane. The downside, because of the lower BTU content you will consume a greater amount of fuel to go the same distance as 93 octane normal gas. The fuel delivery system may need to be increased to supply enough fuel for your particular application. Having such a large amount of alcohol in the fuel will eat up normal rubber and metal parts. They all must be switched over to alcohol friendly materials.

I have read all this on other forums, so take it with a grain of salt. Their was an article in Hot Rod mag a few months ago that basically said the same thing.

If you retune a carburetor for E85 you have to stay with it. You cant bounce back and forth. Only the late model E85 compatible cars are capable of adjusting to the varying levels of alcohol in the fuel.

For your question, 10% alcohol wont hurt our cars at all. We have been using that here in the Chicago area for a great number of years now. From what I have read 20% alcohol wont hurt either. It will just reduce our mileage somewhat. If you check your mileage on a regular bassis you may find an occasion where your mileage went up, or down for no apparent reason. That is most likely the local fuel supplier messing with blend for one reason or another. It happens around here.

[NMike]

my local station has a 15% blend. i have been running it in all my cars for years now.

is there a power difference? YES. Ethanol has only 80% of the BTU's as gas, but its octane is higher. octane is only the resistance to burn, NOT the power of fuel. on my XR650R i notice the power loss, but my Sundance, Dakota, Grand Cherokee and GLHS not so much. less ping in the turbo cars when using the cheap stuff.

does it wreck your car? NO, but Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs moisture. there is a slight potential for some fuel corrosion, but it is not a real concern. in all the years of pulling wrenches, i have never seen a cat wrecked from using Ethanol. no an oil burning engine, that will trash a cat in no time.

[suntech]

Yes the Ethanol is a little less efficiant as fuel, but you will burn more of it, because it has a different air /fuel ratio, so in the nd of the day you will have more power. And less ping!!!!

[my73charger]

Good to know guys.  Thanks!  I can put that ulcer to bed and concentrate on others now. 

[Challenger340]

I gotta bone up on my Chemistry !

Losing brain cells, gonna be hiding my own Easter Eggs in a few years !

OK, so the atomization of the hydroxide group, the "OL", as in ALKYH"OL" has a cooling effect on the Incoming charge making it denser, and drawing heat from any available source, as in this case, a "cooling" effect on the engine.
BUT,
the denser charge results in a Hotter burn, aided by the Oxygen carried, and released in the combustion process from the ALKY group. So if you compensate for the lesser "actual BTU content" in the 20% ALKY by jetting up,

seems to me, you should have a stronger running ?, cooler ?,  engine ?

Thats why I flunked Chemistry !

AARRGHHH !

Bob out.

[daves68]

Ethanol, or any other commonly available alcohol such as methanol and isopropyl, will burn somewhat cooler in a carbureted engine. An earlier post mentioned less heat (BTU) output from a given amount. The tech term is latent heat capacity. An engine converts fuel to heat and the higher heat capacity the fuel has, to a point, the more power it produces from a given amount of fuel. Conversely, the lower capacity will produce less heat. So, it will take  more low capacity fuel to do the same amount of work that a higher one will. Thats why fuel mileage drops when 10% alcohol is added. The rough, sort of ballpark figure is for every 1% alcohol, mileage drops by approx the same %.  If your car got 30mpg on real gas, expect 27-28 on  10% alcohol blend.  However, remember that for years Indy cars have used very high compression engines that were run on alcohol.  Because it has a lower heat capacity, it also produces a  higher octane rating. Octane rating means simply resistance to detonation. A higher cap. fuel detonates easier than a lower one. Old gasoline had antiknock (detonation) additives such as benzene, tetraethyl lead, and methyl tertiary butyl ether , mercifully shortened to MTBE. Now we use ethyl alcohol instead.  The higher the octane rating on the pump, the more alcohol it has.  Again, the down side it that it takes more fuel to go a given distance compared to old time gas.
Now, the hot setup would be to richen up the carb jets, up your compression and add a blower.  Won't get good mileage but it will kick A..
And who cares so much about mileage in our restored Mopars?? As long as it goes F A S T !!!

[evil1]

I wonder what compression ratio you could run with, with a 50% ethanol mix , or even strait ethanol?   

Just looked it up, e85 has an octane rating of 105 and ethanol is 116

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[my73charger]

For me the mileage is a non-issue.  I don't drive it that much in the summer.  I just care about performance. 

[suntech]

A guy here in Norway tested back to back, with a BB Chevy, that was built for normal gas, without any alcohol/ Ethanol blend. ( somewhere in the ballpark of 500 hp)
This was done in a dyno, so it is pretty accurate. With E 85, he gained app 5 % hp, and app 7% of torque. He had to jet up app 30% ( jet area, not diameter hole!!)
No mecanical changes were done, just timing and jetting.
A friend of mine works in the fuel research dep in an oil company here, and we played around with fuel a LOT, when i raced boats.
Things that works a little different than we think sometimes, and when we went deep in to the subject, we found some pretty amazing results, playing around with it.
The ticket is to set the engine up right, for the different fuels. Not mecanicly, just jetting and timing.

[Blown70]

Well if you do truely set up a motor run on alcohol you can run much higher static compression.  At least speaking about this to my good friend..... who knows more than I.  He will be helping with the Supercharger as he has worked with alcohol and superchargers as long as I have been alive.

[suntech]

Of cause yes, you CAN run higher CR, but you don´t NEED to, to see a gain, if jetted and timed right. (E 85) The possibility to go higher on CR gives an opening for extra gain, but the downside is that you are in trouble if the gas station don´t have it, when you pull over for gas, on a roadtrip!!

[Blown70]

Of cause yes, you CAN run higher CR, but you don´t NEED to, to see a gain, if jetted and timed right. (E 85) The possibility to go higher on CR gives an opening for extra gain, but the downside is that you are in trouble if the gas station don´t have it, when you pull over for gas, on a roadtrip!!

Yes I do agree, just stating for those who will strictly run it.

[firefighter3931]

Ethanol, or any other commonly available alcohol such as methanol and isopropyl, will burn somewhat cooler in a carbureted engine. An earlier post mentioned less heat (BTU) output from a given amount. The tech term is latent heat capacity. An engine converts fuel to heat and the higher heat capacity the fuel has, to a point, the more power it produces from a given amount of fuel. Conversely, the lower capacity will produce less heat. So, it will take  more low capacity fuel to do the same amount of work that a higher one will. Thats why fuel mileage drops when 10% alcohol is added. The rough, sort of ballpark figure is for every 1% alcohol, mileage drops by approx the same %.  If your car got 30mpg on real gas, expect 27-28 on  10% alcohol blend.  However, remember that for years Indy cars have used very high compression engines that were run on alcohol.  Because it has a lower heat capacity, it also produces a  higher octane rating. Octane rating means simply resistance to detonation. A higher cap. fuel detonates easier than a lower one. Old gasoline had antiknock (detonation) additives such as benzene, tetraethyl lead, and methyl tertiary butyl ether , mercifully shortened to MTBE. Now we use ethyl alcohol instead.  The higher the octane rating on the pump, the more alcohol it has.  Again, the down side it that it takes more fuel to go a given distance compared to old time gas.
Now, the hot setup would be to richen up the carb jets, up your compression and add a blower.  Won't get good mileage but it will kick A..
And who cares so much about mileage in our restored Mopars?? As long as it goes F A S T !!!

That's an excellent writeup Dave....thanks for taking the time to type it out ! 



Ron

[Highbanked Hauler]

I have heard your midwest  sprint cars and world of outlaws race cars run pure ethanol and a huge carburetor to get enough fuel into the motor 

[daves68]

Firefighter: Thanks, just sharing for the benefit of everyone. I should have also added that care must be taken to use alcohol resistant fuel system parts. The wrong kind have a way of disappearing or changing into a melted lump. Tip: The Coast Guard mandated way back in the 1980's that marine fuel systems must have alcohol resistant fuel lines. The local marine supply store has a variety of hose and tubing that will work in your car. I always use marine fuel line on my vehicles for that reason.
Highbank: Yes they do but they burn methanol, not ethanol. Both alcohols but quite different. Methanol is more corrosive to engine parts, especially galvanized gas tanks. Eats the zinc plate right off and allows rust to form.
Dave

[MNMopar]

  Ethanol is alcohol.... Alcohol is what they burn in Funny Cars... Funny cars go 300+ mph. So why would this be bad for a car engine?

[Blown70]

Ethanol is alcohol.... Alcohol is what they burn in Funny Cars... Funny cars go 300+ mph. So why would this be bad for a car engine?

UHHHH that would be only 10 to 15% Alcohol.... the REST IS NITRO METHANE... if you are speaking of TOP FUEL and FUNNY CARS?

[Purple440]

my73Charger, is that picture from BIR?  That Charger looks familiar.

[Chatt69chgr]

I wonder what happens to Carter mechanical fuel pumps when you run ethanol through them?  It's good to know that ethanol is not so bad on zinc plated parts, ie, fuel tanks.  I am using stainless steel lines.  Will probably use the marine rubber fuel lines as suggested.  But as I recall, the fuel pump has a rubber diaphram in it.  I may need to figure out who owns Carter and give them a call on this.  And then there is the rubber part in the float bowl.  Need to find out about it too.  Not sure what we could do about it but maybe these folks will offer a alcohol resistant replacement part if the originals are going to be eaten up. 

[my73charger]

my73Charger, is that picture from BIR?  That Charger looks familiar.

Yes, that is me racing at Brainerd last year at Muscle Car Shootout.

[Todd Wilson]

Paul G and Doug pretty much summed up the info on ethanol.   I have run 10% ethanol in the Mopars for the last few years now. I got 1 318 that doesnt care, 1 318 that doesnt like it and a 360 that runs fine on it with a computer change. I run it in my 74 Dodge truck with a 440. The 440 is not the same engine is was running straight 91. I have got it to tolerate it but it still puts up a fit in the hot summer with the ping. You just retard your timing until it runs ok. Power will be down. If you have an original fuel system you may find the ethanol will clean it out. Clogging fuel filters and carb bowls. It can over time eat up rubber but I havent found this to be a problem yet. I suspect cars that sit for long periods of time may have more trouble. It also evaporates out of the carb faster so if your car sits for a few weeks it may be a bear to start. E85 is hard to find in some locations. Some new cars are designed to run on E85. Holley had an E85 carb to buy to retrofit onto a muscle car. You will need to plan to set a car up for E85. Possible build an engine around the E85 fuel use. Brand new clean fuel system and lines.

I think these cars can be adjusted to run on 10% -20%ethanol fuels but they wont be the same cars they were on the high octane gasoline.

Your MPG will be lower!!!

Government mandated that ethanol be used in all gas. The ethanol boom has been on, building plants and so forth but in recent months the big guns like Cargil and others have bailed out of plans to build plants. Its not cost effective to produce ethanol. Sometimes it takes more energy to make it then it produces with the energy costs at all levels going thru the roof. The cost of corn is thru the roof and its hurting the food production costs. The usually use natural gas to heat the stuff up. Costs of the Natural gas is more then the return on the ethanol. They raise the price of the ethanol and then suddenly its not helping lower our gasoline prices. IN the mean time if a food product uses a corn product its costs go up. Corn Syrup in pop to corn on the cob. Dont forget your chickens,pigs and cows eat corn so your meat costs go up! Costs more to feed them milk cows to produce cow juice for your Lucky Charms.


All this was to keep the tree huggers happy and keep the rest of us happy by cutting our dependance on foreign oil! The camel jockeys are selling 10% less fuel because of the ethanol!  We're all getting it broke off in us at the pump and at the grocery store now!


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

One other thing.......right now they dont have to tell you at the pump its 10% ethanol blend. Some of you may be running it already and dont know it or have had unexplained power loss or run like crap syndrome. It could be the fuel you are getting.



Todd

[suntech]

Might be the case that the ethanolblends in the US has compensated, in a way that there ic actually no octane increase, over the regular stuff, and then ofcause some of the performance benefits will be gone. 
With E 85 it is a complete different story! You can run more agressive timing (and compression ratio) and have a power increase!!
You will ofcause need a fuel system that can deal with ethanol, both material that is resistant, and capable of handeling the increased flow that will be required. (app 30%).

[Purple440]

my73Charger, is that picture from BIR?  That Charger looks familiar.

Yes, that is me racing at Brainerd last year at Muscle Car Shootout.

Nice.  I've enjoyed watching you and all the other guys race up there for the last three years.  That muscle car show is a blast.  Hope to see you there this year!  My dad and I usually troll the area near the track so if I see your car I'll stop by and say hi and probably ask you a question or two.

- Doug

[my73charger]

Thanks Doug.  I look forward to talking to you.


Tim