Going from power to manual brakes

[General Ryan]

How hard is this on a factory P/S car and is it worth it??

I went for a ride in one with manual brakes and it seemed to have better road feel/pedal feel and didn't differ too much from the feel of todays cars with power brakes, just need more foot power.

Also, I'm thinking of yanking my power steering as well for more feel and less slop but I'd have to get used to parking lot manuvers.

Do you think its worth it or beneficial?

[beenaround]

general i would pass on the brake idea.are you running disc or drums?? my brothers 69 bee had both manual steering and brakes.he hated it!!! too much of a bear to drive.

[General Ryan]

I have power both and disc/drum

[Ghoste]

I've had B-body Mopars in both styles and I can't truthfully tell you what to do.  There are things I like and dislike about both.  I can say this, for a daily driver or even a nice regular cruiser, I prefer power brakes, power steering, and automatic.  Use the manual stuff for performance.

[General Ryan]

Thank you, that was the kind of response I wanted, but could you please elaborate a bit when you say "Performance"
Meaning track only or a heavy street mauler or just a weekend stop light warrior?

[Ghoste]

Everyone is going to define it differently but for me, I don't necessarily mean track only.  I do tend to think of it (in this scenario) as a car that is a pretty serious threat.  To put it in perspective, a 69 Charger RT with 440 automatic power steering and brakes and 3:55 rearend is still going to be plenty of fun to drive and even take to the strip once in a while.  But, you'd still be able to drive it on a long cruise or in heavy traffic or just for an upscale night on the town.   On the other hand, stick a 502 stroker in there with 4:56 gears and nothing that isn't needed to go fast and you get the same car that you can still drive on the street, but how long do you want to be in heavy traffic with it?
Does that make sense at all?

[General Ryan]

Plenty and thanks for that reply.

I thought you were speaking directly about my combo when u referred to the R/T w/440 PS, PB and 3:55 gears, its pretty fun, but I was curious if any thought the manual stuff just had a better feel/control of what the car was doing.

[firefighter3931]

I like power steering for a street driven car....just makes driving it more user friendly. I'm converting mine from power brakes to manual....it's getting the SS Brakes force-10 disc brake upgrade to replace the front drums. Most big cams don't make enough engine vacuum to run a power booster and i won't let power brakes dictate how much cam i can run in the motor. There are vaccum reservoir cans available to help but it's a bandaid fix at best. Big cam = manual brakes.  

Ron

[Ghoste]

That's the beauty (or curse?) of Chargers.  They are such a good looking car that who wouldn't want to be seen cruising in one.  On the other hand, they are a Mopar and as such, lend themselves to high performance quite readily.  Not to mention that for a geat looking cruising vehicle they also make an aggressive looking race vehicle.
That's why it was Dodge's flagship in the classic years.  It was their car of choice for the highly visible NASCAR events but it was also highly advertised in Playboy (sports luxury market, the later Shelby Mustangs were the only other musclecar to advertise a lot in Playboy) and Life and other magazines which were not necessarily enthusiast rags.
Make it what you want because that is what Charger is.

[Steve P.]

My 65' Coronet 500 is quite a bit lighter than a Charger. This makes it easier to go to manual steering. I did drive my cousin Mikes 68' Charger around Vegas a few years ago with no problems. He even has a rather small steering wheel and I have a bad back...

I like to feel what the car feels. Power steering just doesn't get it for me unless it's my every day go getter.. I would never take my car to get groceries or park it at the theater. Most assuredly I would never parallel park it on the street!! 

Manual brakes and steering for me...  I also like to manually shift too!!!

[General Ryan]

How much of a hassle and what do I need (parts) and how/what do I do to convert the brakes to manual??

[bull]

You know what I wish someone would invent? Too bad I'm going to tell you anyway. A speed switch that would disengage a clutch on the power steering pulley at about 20 mph. No power steering above 20 mph and power steering at 0-20. I don't even care if that sounds stupid.

[Ghoste]

I don't think it sounds stupid at all.  I suppose in some ways that is what the variable ratio power units are trying to duplicate, but your idea is better yet.
Ryan, you need a manual master cylinder and I think you need a different pushrod for it.  I think that's about it.
A plug for the vacuum tap on the intake. 

[71charger_fan]

I have manual brakes on the Charger and would never consider going to power. Power brakes as a term is a misnomer anyway. They are power-assisted brakes. The line pressure isn't any higher in a PB car than it is in a manual brake car. You just have to push a little harder with manual brakes. A worthwhile trade off for the increased feel in my opinion.

After having manual steering in a V8 Barracuda years ago, I'd never have manual steering in a heavy car again. It's great on the road but a bear in a parking lot. The few hp robbed by the PS pump are well spent.

[Rolling_Thunder]

i have manual 4 wheel disc brakes and love them...    power brakes are just to sensitive to me...     

[Duey]

Ron, is it as simple as getting a manual master and capping the vacuum takeoff on the manifold?

Cheers,
Duey

[Jon Smith]

I did this myself, I didn't even use a different master cylinder, just a different pushrod which I made myself by welding some steel bar on the end of the original pushrod, and making up a steel sleeve which i welded over the join to reinforce it then a bit of turning on the end and i was done, i did have access to a lathe though and it would probably be a bit easier to find donor parts on your side of the atlantic

[Duey]

Jon, maybe I'm not quite following you, but wouldn't the manual master cylinder have smaller piston area (and longer throw) to keep pedal pressures reasonable?  Otherwise you'd just have powerbrakes without the power, right? (and that is a bear to drive)

Cheers,
Duey

[firefighter3931]

Ron, is it as simple as getting a manual master and capping the vacuum takeoff on the manifold?

Cheers,
Duey

Yep, you'll also need a new master pushrod because the power brake rod will be too long. I purchased the adjustable rod from Mancini Racing but other vendors probably carry something similar.

Ron

[Runner]

Ron, is it as simple as getting a manual master and capping the vacuum takeoff on the manifold?

Cheers,
Duey

Yep, you'll also need a new master pushrod because the power brake rod will be too long. I purchased the adjustable rod from Mancini Racing but other vendors probably carry something similar.

Ron

   or you can get the rod from a manual brake junk car,  magnumhp.com sells the rubber that holds the rod into the master for next to nothing.   

  i LOVE manual discs on old mopars., besides it takes a bunch of weight off the fron of the car and cleans up the engine compartment.

['CUDA360]

I have power steering and manual brakes in the white car and power brakes with manual steering in the yellow car. That's just the way they came  .

I really like the manual brakes but I don't really have an opinion on manual steering. Either way is fine

[General_01]

I would keep the power steering. The brakes aren't a big deal to me, but I have power steering in the '71 and manual steering in the '69 and I can tell you from experience that power steering is better for manuvering at car shows and while parking. The General may get power steering in the next few years. My shoulders need the help.

[Jon Smith]

Jon, maybe I'm not quite following you, but wouldn't the manual master cylinder have smaller piston area (and longer throw) to keep pedal pressures reasonable?  Otherwise you'd just have powerbrakes without the power, right? (and that is a bear to drive)

Cheers,
Duey

the pedal pressure is controlled by a lever asssembly on the pedal, not the master cylinder, manual brake cars just have a straight pushrod from the pedal, I took the lever off
just remembered I had to mount the master cylinder slightly lower on the bulkhead too but thats no big problem
I was told when I did the mod that there was no difference between mastercylinders on power or manual brake cars but I've never actually checked this. My brakes work great
this is a drum brake car, I dont know about discs

[Duey]

Hmmm....yeah, not sure about discs either Jon, I know they work as significantly higher pressures...something like 3x higher pressure  in disc calipers than drums rings a bell, but can't recall exactly.  Thanks for the info, though, Jon!

Cheers,
Duey

[sandmbmx88]

so im switching from power to manual brakes too. i have disc front and drum rear. is this just a matter of changing master cylinders? the brakes are the stock kelsey hayse 4 piston caliper front and the 11" rear drums.

[General Ryan]

so im switching from power to manual brakes too. i have disc front and drum rear. is this just a matter of changing master cylinders? the brakes are the stock kelsey hayse 4 piston caliper front and the 11" rear drums.

Bump for ya, because I'm curious as well

[Doc74]

You know what I wish someone would invent? Too bad I'm going to tell you anyway. A speed switch that would disengage a clutch on the power steering pulley at about 20 mph. No power steering above 20 mph and power steering at 0-20. I don't even care if that sounds stupid.

Something like that exists, it's an electronic assist mostly that gives you very soft power assist with slow manouvers but fades away when you pick up speed and the wheel gets really firm.
I don't remember which cars had them, I bellieve some older sports Hondas, probably some volvos too or something.
You can also buy assists that mount to the column but I don't know any details of those.
I used to think BMW had them but they have basically the same system as American cars, they just giive a more tight feel.
I will try to either adjust or replace my ps pump with a modern one, it'll be lots of trial and error but the way they run stock is not an option, it's like driving through pudding.Those huge steering wheels are there for a reason !

[COKE]

You know what I wish someone would invent? Too bad I'm going to tell you anyway. A speed switch that would disengage a clutch on the power steering pulley at about 20 mph. No power steering above 20 mph and power steering at 0-20. I don't even care if that sounds stupid.

Keep in mind that a non working power steering or power   brakes are not the same thing than manual steering or manual brakes.
Try to brake or turn the steering from   a power assisted car with the engine off....

About the power steering,i think is one of the best inventions ever made in the automotive story.
The trouble with these old mopars,is the P/S is over assisted.I just have changed the manual steering for a power steering,and i NEVER will back to manual.
If  i have cash someday, i will go to a feel firm police car P/S gearbox.

About the manual brakes, i   really can ´t to opine .
I only can to say that i,m going to try with them cause i have a lot of troubles like low vacuum and a bad booster,and this seems to be a good solution.

[thallium]

so im switching from power to manual brakes too. i have disc front and drum rear. is this just a matter of changing master cylinders? the brakes are the stock kelsey hayse 4 piston caliper front and the 11" rear drums.

I'm wondering about this as well. I have power disc brakes up front and drums in the rear on the 70 charger. I would like to switch to manual discs for the low vacuum reason on the cam when i put a big cam in the daytona.  Do I need to change the master cylinder? or just the rod? pull the brake booster off and just mount this to the adapter plate?

I'm pretty sure the master cylinder has to be moved. I took a pattern out of carboard for an adapter plate that i think needs to be made to convert to manual.

Anybody know if you can use the same master cylinder for power disc front/ drum rear to convert to manual? or if not, which master cylinder to get (stock or aftermarket).  I'm pretty sure this adapter plate i copied off another person needs to be used. I'm hoping it's as simple as making this adapter plate then mounting the old master cylinder that had the booster on it to the adapter plate. Then get an adjustable rod and i'm done. anyway, any info on this would be helpful. thanks.

[gasoline_24]

 

I would like to know this answer as well.  I don't have the vacuum to run mine either.

[greenpigs]

My booster is bad and I have all drums. Just what parts do we need to swap to a new style master cylinder? And would a big bore version be a better choice. Do I need to blead the brakes after the swap.

[G-man]

My car was P/S and I tried to turn it with the P/S disconected at low speed....

LOL!

I couldnt move the wheel... i stuck all my weight into the damn wheel to get the car to turn a bit.

THATS DEFINATELY NOT THE SAME AS MANUAL STEER

I do like the feel of manual steer vs power steer.

Ive also tried Manual breaks (are manual breaks breaks with no break booster? mine didnt have a break booster) and well it makes it harder to push the pedal... significantly. Since ive been used to todays cars... and all the old cars I owned did have break booster this was first time I had 1 without it... and well.... i went flying down the street, went to slow down to take a corner at a T section.... guess what? Yep... I went sliding around that corner without stopping. Thank God no cars were there!

I was pressing the break so hard I thought im gonna lock the wheels up and the car wasnt slowing down enough (obviously manual breaks u gotta push a lot more).

Well...

Now i dunno, performance sense, id do manual on both and just get 'used' to howmuch u gotta press for hard/soft stopping.

I would assume though that in emergency situation on street.... manual breaks = finished and this is where Power breaks becomes more safe.... but then again if u know how hard u gotta break with it... I dont think P/B means "car stops better" just means "easier on the foot" yes/no?