there is just no winning solution for the eco-greenies out there for fue/cars...

[69charger2002]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080207/ap_on_re_us/ethanol_global_warming

i swear, gas and cars cause too much pollution, E-85 will be worse, ethanol terrible, and hybrid cars would create a battery landfill like we've never seen.. i guess to make greenies happy we'd all be better off just walking everywhere
trav

[charger_mike75]

As soon as you tell them to start walking they'll shut up   

[hemihead]

The blame the automobile for everything. What about all the things made of plastic? What will all the jet planes run on ? What about clearing all the forests for urban sprawl , new large fancy houses and shopping malls ? The Eco - hippies only want to change what bothers them .

[bull]

First of all, the greenies cannot be made happy. Period.

Secondly, if you took all the natural resources in the known universe and converted it into cash it still wouldn't be enough to fund their ideas.

Third, we will all be long dead before they ever agree on a viable alternative to gasoline and diesel so it's all moot anyway.

Fourth, if they were half as good at coming up with solutions as they are at identifying/creating problems we would be living in paradise right now.

[TruckDriver]

The blame the automobile for everything. What about all the things made of plastic? What will all the jet planes run on ? What about clearing all the forests for urban sprawl , new large fancy houses and shopping malls ? The Eco - hippies only want to change what bothers them .

I agree 110%. But you forgot to mention that they never seem to complain about they emissions that factorys and coal burning power plants put out.

[TK73]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

[PocketThunder]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

Whats wrong with bashing Greenies?   

[chargerboy69]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

Whats wrong with bashing Greenies?   

I agree. I love bashing tree huggers too. . . .  These are a few of my favorite things.

[Charger_Fan]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

Whats wrong with bashing Greenies?   

I agree. I love bashing tree huggers too. . . .  These are a few of my favorite things.

Me too, it's a great sport!

[PocketThunder]

I even have my 68 set up to run on hydrocarbons..   

[chargerboy69]

I even have my 68 set up to run on hydrocarbons..   

I love those stickers.    I should have ordered a few from The Glenn Beck Show myself.

[BB1]

I read that all the mining for the lead in the batteries is killing the ground, forest and rivers.

[hemihead]

 I will never understand how  something that is found naturally in the ground considered pollution   

[TK73]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

Whats wrong with bashing Greenies?   

I agree. I love bashing tree huggers too. . . .  These are a few of my favorite things.

Me too, it's a great sport!

I suppose you are right, to each his own. 

I love bashing the ignorant Bushies, and general right-wingers, who happen to believe every word that ExxonMobile, and that bloated hypocrite Limpbag, spew forth in an attempt to marginalize people who have legitimate concerns about the environment.   

And NO, Kyoto was not a document that gave the power to the government to come and take your Charger to crush. (yes, people actually said this on the last board).

[pettyfan43]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

Whats wrong with bashing Greenies?   

I agree. I love bashing tree huggers too. . . .  These are a few of my favorite things.

Me too, it's a great sport!

I suppose you are right, to each his own. 

I love bashing the ignorant Bushies, and general right-wingers, who happen to believe every word that ExxonMobile, and that bloated hypocrite Limpbag, spew forth in an attempt to marginalize people who have legitimate concerns about the environment.   

And NO, Kyoto was not a document that gave the power to the government to come and take your Charger to crush. (yes, people actually said this on the last board).

Maybe not but what Kyoto DID make provisions for is OTHER governments (Can you say socialists) to make decisions about what is BEST FOR OUR Country and for them to decide how OUR economy should be slowed down so THEY don't have to clean up their OWN back yards.

AS far as that goes, just because someone is a conservative, does not mean that you have an intelligence advantage over them or them you. JUST because your opinion is DIFFERENT does  not make you more RIGHT! Just different.

The scientists can't even agree on what is going on anyway, IS the earth warming? Depends on which group of scientists you listen to. If you listen to Gore's group, they want you to believe that we are all gonna burn up.  The problem? They got most of THEIR info from the military and they have since said, OOPS we made a few mistakes.  Course, you aren't gonna hear THAT on CNN or BSNBC.

If it is warming up, I'm inclined to believe it has a lot to do with that big thermonuclear reactor that lights the skies up every morning.

IN the 14th century the temps DID warm up (Damn carbon based fueled chariots!!!!) and the Human race LOVED IT. More Food was grown, less disease and major advancements in industry, science and the arts were the result.

The panic mongers are full of HOOEY!  Just like they are EVERY time they find a new "problem" to try to scare the public with. Temperature cycles are nothing new, the planet has ALWAYS gone through them.

[hemihead]

 The sky is falling , the sky is falling .....     

[69charger2002]

Time to lock this Mother F$@#er up...

Whats wrong with bashing Greenies?   

I agree. I love bashing tree huggers too. . . .  These are a few of my favorite things.

Me too, it's a great sport!

I suppose you are right, to each his own. 

I love bashing the ignorant Bushies, and general right-wingers, who happen to believe every word that ExxonMobile, and that bloated hypocrite Limpbag, spew forth in an attempt to marginalize people who have legitimate concerns about the environment.   

And NO, Kyoto was not a document that gave the power to the government to come and take your Charger to crush. (yes, people actually said this on the last board).

Maybe not but what Kyoto DID make provisions for is OTHER governments (Can you say socialists) to make decisions about what is BEST FOR OUR Country and for them to decide how OUR economy should be slowed down so THEY don't have to clean up their OWN back yards.

AS far as that goes, just because someone is a conservative, does not mean that you have an intelligence advantage over them or them you. JUST because your opinion is DIFFERENT does  not make you more RIGHT! Just different.

The scientists can't even agree on what is going on anyway, IS the earth warming? Depends on which group of scientists you listen to. If you listen to Gore's group, they want you to believe that we are all gonna burn up.  The problem? They got most of THEIR info from the military and they have since said, OOPS we made a few mistakes.  Course, you aren't gonna hear THAT on CNN or BSNBC.

If it is warming up, I'm inclined to believe it has a lot to do with that big thermonuclear reactor that lights the skies up every morning.

IN the 14th century the temps DID warm up (Damn carbon based fueled chariots!!!!) and the Human race LOVED IT. More Food was grown, less disease and major advancements in industry, science and the arts were the result.

The panic mongers are full of HOOEY!  Just like they are EVERY time they find a new "problem" to try to scare the public with. Temperature cycles are nothing new, the planet has ALWAYS gone through them.

i'll tell you what gets me. is watching the news and seeing just last week in one sentence they did a little "bit" on the latest global warming BS that was the hot topic. the second they ended the bit they went into weather and the first thing the guy said was we have an arctic blast coming down that will be bringing near record low temps! how ironic is that? also just for kicks i went back through record highs and lows here for a whole year. at least for baton rouge... MOST record highs were set way back in the 40's and 50's, some in the 80's, and NONE from 2000+.. while on the other hand a lot of record lows were broken in the mid-late 80's and some in the mid 90's.. i do believe we're in a general warming trend weather pattern here lately.. but i personally believe it's just that. a weather pattern. in 10 years who knows if the average temp during july will be 5 degrees warmer or cooler. i don't think global warming has much to do with anything. except false hype
trav

[mikesbbody]

As soon as you tell them to start walking they'll shut up   

I agree 100% if they are so into saving the planet why do they drive? whats wrong with bashing greenies? absolutely nothing! they will never, ever be satsified until cars are gone all together.

[hemihead]

Ever notice the Greenies like to drive their SUV's to their protests ? Talk on their cell phones while there . Them go home and post their blogs on the internet ? What about the Space Shuttle ? Isn't it bad for the earth too ? Wow the greenies really help the environment . Like it or not I really don't care about the environment . I love styrofoam . I wish they would bring back the plastic 6 pack holders . I hate any smog equipment on vehicles . I just want to live my life without someone telling how bad I'm living my life . I am not anal retentive enough to have a safety device on everything in my car and house .

[Mike DC]

The extreme green movement works because it brings religious-style guilt to a group of Americans who have disproportioately abandoned conventional religions. 

[Chad L. Magee]

I will never understand how  something that is found naturally in the ground considered pollution   

Well, you just opened a can of worms as this is part of my Ph.D. research (heavy metal environmetal sensors), so sit tight:

It is the interaction with the human body and other living things that makes some naturally occuring minerals toxic (which is a form of pollution).  Mercury and cadmium are heavy metals that do not have a biological role within the body, so they have a tendency to disrupt functions (brain, nervous sytem) that cause lasting effects.  Mercury metal by itself is not very toxic (school children used to play with it and Romans used to drink it), but if it gets exposed to certain bacteria (such as some found in the sea), it can become oxidized to form compound that are quite deadly (dimethylmercury).  It then latches onto some of the amino acids (those containing thiol groups) within fish, whereby it bioaccumulates.  If you like to eat tuna and swordfish, you are getting doses of mercuric compounds from the fish you are consuming.  Mercury in the soil can not typically come into contact with those type of bacteria, so it is extremely rare to find the organic mercuric compounds in buried rocks.  Heavy metals are accumulative poisions, meaning your body has a hard time ridding itself of them.  Such metals are fairly inert when buried deep in the ground, as they typically react with other minerals and become another mineral that is stagnet in the soil.  Mercury metal, for example, will readily react with sulfur to form HgS (cinnabar), which is fairly inert in the ground.  The same can be said for quite a few metals on the periodic chart.  The problem is when you dig that up and heat it to recover the mercuy metal (and other metals), you also release alot of sulfur (which can react further causing pollution problems from the products).  Another problem is that something like a mining shaft for zinc will also contain an amount of cadmium minerals, which might be released in the purification process (dust particles, wash off, or contaminated soil).  Once it gets into streams, it becomes more mobile than in the soil phase.  Cadmium is extremely toxic to the body and in high concentrations will dispace calcium in bones, leading to "Ouchi-Ouchi" diease (rough translation).  That was discovered in Japan fourty years ago from people eating rice grown in zones containg high amounts of zinc (and cadmium) in the soil.  Their bones decompose as time passes until they pass on painfully.   Rice grown just a short distance away in normal soil had no detrimental effects since it contains little or no cadmium.  So, basically the answer is: buried deep in the ground, the heavy metals are not going to come into contact with living things to cause major pollution effects (although they can still affect ground water supplies, but that can be filtered out with the right equipment), but bring them to the surface and you get more exposure.......

[hemihead]

So in other words you bury them in the ground like , oh I don't know , a trash dump and everything should be ok , right ? Then what is the big deal ?

[Chad L. Magee]

Need to bury them a bit deeper than that or they might still work their way back to the surface through erosion via wind/water.  I have seen landfills that were covered with soil, only to have big windstorms (in Kansas) come through and blow most of the dirt away, leaving the trash exposed.  So, both depth and location are factors in preventing further exposure to the surface environment.  Flash flooding can also be a contamination issue if it is not buried deep enough.  The main problem with throwing them in a dump has to do with the heavy metals leaching into potential water supplies.  That is why most NiCd and lead batteries are recycled now and not thrown away as they had been in the past.  The proper way of disposal is through recycling, plus you usually can get money for what you wanted to get rid of anyways (win/win situation).........

[hemihead]

You said above it could be filtered out of the water with the right equipment . As far as the landfill , why not just build another shopping mall on top of it like usual ?

[Brock Samson]

Thanks for the well presented Facts C. L. M. 

Well here on the west coast "green" is a pervasive marketing strategy, everything they try to sell is labeled "Green" Eviormentaly Safe and all that...  jazz... It's sooo bad it's gotten to the point where everytime i hear the word "Green" I mutter "BULLSHIT" under my breath, 
I don't know if you guys get the same ridiculous marketing campaigns we get where you are but I'm pretty tired of the guilt trips and holier then thou advertising.
I belive folks buy these prius and other hybreds for a combo of the good gas milage and to get the free pass in the car-pool lane, if these folks were really gonna do their share for the sake of the planet they wouldn't drive to work and back alone but would participate in car-pools, but they are 90% of the time single occupent vehicles.

And so, to counteract all  the B.S.  I bought a new item at the flea market for the rear window of my Charger... 

[bull]

I belive folks buy these prius and other hybreds for a combo of the good gas milage and to get the free pass in the car-pool lane, if these folks were really gonna do their share for the sake of the planet they wouldn't drive to work and back alone but would participate in car-pools, but they are 90% of the time single occupent vehicles.

No, they don't do it for the gas mileage and the free pass in the carpool lane, they do it for the "holier-than-thou" factor you mentioned above. They do it so they can look down their noses at everyone who's not like them and hence, feel good about themselves. They feel like they're watching Jerry Springer from inside their cars every time they go to work or to the store... "Look at all these white trash rednecks driving around in their Earth-killing SUVs," they think. "And look at me. I'm doing my part, I'm saving the Earth, I'm conserving fuel and making the world safer for baby polar bears, penguins and little furry kittens. I am awesome! I am wonderful! I am Mother Earth's messiah!"

The extreme green movement works because it brings religious-style guilt to a group of Americans who have disproportioately abandoned conventional religions.

That's awesome. This is one of the most accurate and genius statements I've ever seen on this site. Bravo, Mike.

[Chad L. Magee]

You said above it could be filtered out of the water with the right equipment . As far as the landfill , why not just build another shopping mall on top of it like usual ?

Yes, they can be filtered out of water, but that cost alot of money to do on a large scale for a city.  Want to foot the bill with extra taxes?  A local town 50 miles from where I live has ground water contaminted with a very high level of nitrates (excessive fertilization farming with irrigated wells).  Another town has high levels of chromium due to a certain business dumping their unwanted heavy metal solutions directly down the drain.  Would you like to pay extra money to purify your water every time you use it (drinking, bathing and yes, even washing your car) from pollution problems if you know that the problem could have been easily prevented with a little common sense?  An average water softner can only do so much.......

As for the mall idea, yeah that might work, but what about years down the line when the building gets sold and someone else wants to develop the land.  Maybe the guy who sold the land told the new buyers about the unwanted materials under the building, maybe not.  Would you want your new house built upon that land without knowlege of the contamination?  (In the 1980s, entire US town had to be moved due to a toxic waste dump being buried underneath in the 1950-60s and then houses were built on top of it later on.)  Something similar happened locally to a old gas station when a guy built a storage building on top of the old fuel tanks without removing them, then he sold the property.  If the EPA gets wind that the land is contaminated by anything, the owner becomes responcible to fix the problem.  Would you want to be that guy?.....

Trust me, I am not an advid environmentalist, but I do have to deal with them occationally at work.  I just try to leave as soft a footprint upon the earth that I tread on (something that you learn being a chemist, especially if you have to handle extremely toxic/radioactive materials on a daily basis).  All of our laboratory unwanted materials must be processed according to EPA/NRC regulations, or the workplace gets shut down period and you get a nice fine.  Once you have to follow those sort of rules for a period of time at work, it follows into your own life to not pollute the space you live in as much as you can.  If I give you a good laugh at my long (and to some boring) responces on this topic, so be it as long as I am informing as I am entertaining..........

[hemihead]

I actually enjoy the information .

[hutch]

when you fill up your car with e85 you are taking away one year supply of grain from an adult some place in the world.  We are burning our fuel supply with this stupid idea.  Nothing wrong with looking at other ways to power a car but be real about it.  And dont force me to go along with it.

[bull]

when you fill up your car with e85 you are taking away one year supply of grain from an adult some place in the world. 

Well, that or the govt. is paying the farmer subsidies to either not produce it or let the stuff rot in a silo somewhere. If they would just let the stuff sit in those silos a little longer we'd have all sorts of ethanol to burn.

[bordin34]

Ford used to dump old lead based paint in the mountains around here from there old plant in Mahwah,NJ. It has caused birth defects to people living in the mountains and people who hunt and eat squirrels can only have 2 a week because of their high lead levels.

[Chad L. Magee]

Lead affects developing children (both born and unborn) more than adults, in that the metal interfers with the development of certain portions of the brain.  This effect was not known until the 1970s when scientists noticed a correlation between low IQ and lead paint in urban housing units.  Kids were eating the old paint chips because they tastes sweet like candy (much like antifreeze), so most paint manifactures have been trying to remove that additive when possible.  Lead can also have some health effects for adults, but it is the younger generation that is most at risk.  Leaded gasoline was a large environmental problem, and in an adverse way, still is.  Yes, the manifactures switched the gasoline at the pump over to unleaded blends more than twenty years ago.  But, if you go along major highways that were used during that time and take topsoil measurements, you will typically find a high concentration of lead present.  How did the lead get there?  Well, as the gasoline was burnt, the small lead particles were eventually pushed out in the exaust plume of the vehicle.  Over time, the lead particle settled down to the ground (heavier than air) and worked it way into the topsoil.  The problem with that is rainwater can move these particles into water supplies causing pollution.  That is the real reason why lead had to be removed from gasoline in the major supply.  Yes, you can still buy the lead additives for your car.  The difference between having a few cars do this vs. the entire country is pretty large.........

If I come off being a smartass in my posts, I am really not trying to be.  (My Ph.D. project targeted measuring cadmium, lead and mercury levels in the environment from compounds that I designed.)  This is stuff I have learned over the years while working on my research project and am just happy to be able to share the information with others.............

[hemihead]

Ok if greenies are so worried about pollution , how will they stop all the Volcanoes from erupting ? 

[Mike DC]

 
(Heh heh.  Glad you liked my theory about greenies, Bull!)

---------------------------------------------------------------------


It's been pointed out that the ancient Romans used lead pipes for parts of their water supply.  They were getting increasingly lead-poisoned over time without realizing it.



In Missouri we've got the "Lead Belt" area where the numbers are pretty high in patches.  I think there's a combination of both natural and commerical (irresponsible) reasons for it.  There's been a real cleanup effort in more recent times, but I think it's one of those too-little/too-late cleanups after a lot of the damage is already done. 

My mother taught at a junior high school down in that area for one year back in the 1960s.  She didn't even know about the lead issue at the time, and she still came away saying there must have been something wrong with half the kids she taught.

     

[Chad L. Magee]

You can't stop the volcanos from erupting, but there have been some debate among the greenies about how to curb the gas releases from them (a pointless venture).  Sure, you could build a giant filtering unit (similar to a smokestack scrubber) for each one, but at what cost (who fits the bill?) and it still will not prevent an eruption from occurring (it might fall in, plug the volcano and lead to a much worse violent explosion).  Who would want to be one of the workers building the unit on site, dealing constantly with high heat and sulfur fumes?  I would not want to.  Volcanos greatly affect weather patterns, as one eruption back in 1815 (Mt.Tambora) lead to a non-summer event worldwide the next year, just by the release of the ash and gases. Another one in 1883 destroyed 2/3 of an island in the south pacific.  Granted, not all volcanos explode that violently, but they all release large amounts of gases and particles over time.  Overall, they have a larger impact on the environment than the automobile ever did in my opinion.......

As for the high lead content in Missouri, I sat in on a research presentation last year at MU whereby the team studies the effects of heavy metal contamination upon young crawfish (in cages) placed into different streams.  The results of this study have been published in scientific journals since then.  Basically, the main jest of the talk was that they found that a majority died along sections where high lead levels were present.  Their systems can not adapt very well to certain pollutants and that leads to their deaths.  So, you can use them to help indicate whether or not the stream is highly polluted or not before needing to run experimental lab tests costing extra $......

[hutch]

when you fill up your car with e85 you are taking away one year supply of grain from an adult some place in the world. 

Well, that or the govt. is paying the farmer subsidies to either not produce it or let the stuff rot in a silo somewhere. If they would just let the stuff sit in those silos a little longer we'd have all sorts of ethanol to burn.

Even if you get rid of all the UN and US Federal government involvment in farming, e85 is never going to offer the enegry trade off for the loss of food supply to the world.  Grain prices are going to go up as the demand increases and the supply goes down because of the amount of grain it takes to produce one gallon of e85.  its a political joke to think E85 is going to some how solve our energy problems.


e85 is never going to power the cars, trucks or planes of the world.  It is just going to make some people feel good about not using oil and cause the worlds food supply to go up in smoke.

[Mike DC]

Crude oil.  Gonna be on top of the vehicular transportation game for a long, long time. 

No matter how much environmental damage it's doing or how expensive it might get. 

 

[hemihead]

What about " Global Warming " ? It's 3 Degrees here today . With wind chill it's - 11  . In the 70's all the Tree Huggers cried about  " Global Cooling " and a new Ice Age . This all coming from scientists who get paid by grants from various sources . I guess they tell whoever writes the check what they want to hear then say " but more research is needed . It's all about keeping themselves employed .

[Chad L. Magee]

The global warming debate is one that will go on and on as long as someone has $ to fund study projects.  I, as a scientist, tend to be sceptible about a subject until proven results are presented.  The data that is out there on it so far is inconclusive in my eyes, as you can not judge all changes that have occurred in the past hundred years as totally man made (or on the flip side, totally nature made).  If someone can totally prove to me with 100% pure data with absolutely no errors that all global warming effects are caused by man, I will change my stance (but I am not holding my breath that it will happen soon).  While you can run simulations of simple reactions on a computer, that is not the same as what is happening out in the real world.  If you were to make a correct simulation taking in account everything that goes on (as some scientists believe they can), you would need a much longer lifetime to get it done right and it would only capture one time period that would have passed by the time you finished.  Mother nature works in cycles with deviations and we have not been on earth long enough to have a totally 100% accurate record of these for adjusting measured data.  Sure, you can take measurements of redwood trees and ice cores, but that is only going back thousands of years.  Some cycles might take much longer and we don't have any record of them.  Environmental scientists can make their best guesses or estimates on these cycles, but they are not facts, so everything based off of them must be taken with a grain of salt........ 

[Mike DC]

 

Well, we know for sure that the temps are climbing up enough to cause some real trouble in coming decades. 
And we know the rise seems to nicely match the growth of the industrial revolution.   


We can't say much past that. 
We dunno the causes, what to do about it, whether or not it's part of a much bigger planet fluctuation that would have happened on its own, etc.

[Brock Samson]

I saw a tv show awhile back that stated that there was a long period in the Dark Ages when the winters were unusually cold and long and the summers virtually non existant, they could tell by charting the growth patterns in tree rings. i forget the details or where i saw it but i don't doubt there have been unusually long hot summers as well... pre-industrial revolution...

[Mike DC]

We're just between ice ages right now by all scientific reckoning. 

But whether the "global warming" we're seeing right now is being caused by mankind or not, it's gonna screw us up pretty badly.  If the oceans rise like they seem to indicate now, that's gonna upset the world as we know it.  Squabbles over crude oil & religion & dictators are gonna look like small potatoes compared to the effects of displacing several billion people worldwide at the same time.

 

[hutch]

We're just between ice ages right now by all scientific reckoning. 

But whether the "global warming" we're seeing right now is being caused by mankind or not, it's gonna screw us up pretty badly.  If the oceans rise like they seem to indicate now, that's gonna upset the world as we know it.  Squabbles over crude oil & religion & dictators are gonna look like small potatoes compared to the effects of displacing several billion people worldwide at the same time.

 

They are telling us that the seas will rise in the next 100 years just as they have the last 100 years.   Land is washed away as part of a natural order of tides and rivers flowing.  Nothing can be done about it.

by a house a block from waterfront and your great,great grand kids will love you for it.

[Chad L. Magee]

If the coasts flood, then the population will have to move further inland, unless they want to do the Sealab 2000 thing or build a floating island.  Being a lifelong midwestener, I have never understood the quest many have on living right next to the sea.  I have been to the Alantic (stayed a week at Ocean City, Md two blocks from the beach), but was not that impressed with everything.  To me, I would prefer to be in a sea of wheat and sunflowers (Kansas).  I am a bit biased as I can't eat most seafood (allergies) and in OC, that was just about 95% of the eating places in the area I was staying.  I did find a cool 50s drivein that I practically visited for every meal.  Granted, I know most people would be board to death out in Kansas, but I prefer it.........

[Mike DC]

The seas really are on a path to rise at this point. 

I don't necessarily believe Al Gore or the extreme greenies on the issue, but I do believe Robert Ballard on the issue.   I saw him get asked about it last year at a talk he gave at a university.  Ballard very casually answered that it's gonna happen for sure. 

What really tripped me out was the way he answered it though ---  when responding, Ballard offered no real opinons or commentary past that.  No politics talk, no hydrocarbons & clean energy ideas, no scary rhetoric, no nothing.  He seemed totally uninterested in talking about why, how, who is to blame, or how to fight it.  He basically reacted as if he'd been asked whether the sun was gonna come up tomorrow morning.  The next things out of his mouth were starting to talk about the gradual effects that the sea level rise would have over the decades. 

 

[pettyfan43]

That's all well and good, except for the fact that the ice caps thaw and refreeze every year with the season change. This year, as the GLOBAL WARMING is threatening to do us all in, the Ice cap at the north pole was already at early march levels of freezing (by area and mass) in early JANUARY!!! In other words, it's a HELLUVA lot colder there this year.


To Al Gore 

Buncha HOOEY is what it is!

[hemihead]

I'm still waiting to see this Global Warming . It's an Ice Hell here today .

[last426]

[snip]  If someone can totally prove to me with 100% pure data with absolutely no errors that all global warming effects are caused by man, I will change my stance (but I am not holding my breath that it will happen soon).  [snip]

Until that statement you had me.  Are you sure that is what you wanted to say?  Kim

[Mike DC]

 
People can take any one (or several) statistics and prove anything they want to.  Temps say this, glaciers say that, etc.

But the net overall picture that has been forming over many years is pointing to the idea that the earth's climate is shifting.

 

[bull]

People can take any one (or several) statistics and prove anything they want to.  Temps say this, glaciers say that, etc.

But the net overall picture that has been forming over many years is pointing to the idea that the earth's climate is shifting.

 

... and has been since the beginning of time. The question becomes then how do some people on this planet become so arrogant as to attempt to drastically modify the lives of their fellow man based on information gathered whithin a perspective of time that is completely minute?

[PocketThunder]

People can take any one (or several) statistics and prove anything they want to.  Temps say this, glaciers say that, etc.

But the net overall picture that has been forming over many years is pointing to the idea that the earth's climate is shifting.

 

... and has been since the beginning of time. The question becomes then how do some people on this planet become so arrogant as to attempt to drastically modify the lives of their fellow man based on information gathered whithin a perspective of time that is completely minute?

Because thats the ultimate power in some peoples lives, to control another person life. 

[Mike DC]

 
 
   

"Drastically modifying the lives of our fellow man based on information gathered within a period of time that's completely minute." 

Umm . . .  What about the original decision to start buring fossil fuels and drive/float/fly motorized vehicles all over the earth 100 years ago? 

Would you consider all the thought processes & decisions up until now to be something other than this?   


 

[pettyfan43]

People can take any one (or several) statistics and prove anything they want to.  Temps say this, glaciers say that, etc.

But the net overall picture that has been forming over many years is pointing to the idea that the earth's climate is shifting.

 

And that is exactly the point, the climate has ALWAYS SHIFTED!!! This is NOTHING NEW, it has been happening since this ball of dust has been here.

That big ball of fire 93 million miles from here, the BIG thermonuclear reactor called THE SUN has ALWAYS had temperature fluctuations. To suddenly assume that humans can override the natural changes on our planet and in our environment is the very epitome of human arrogance.

This old world has a way of dealing with what it has no use for. (dinosaurs anyone?)  The temps will go up and they will go down. The rub? There ain't a THING you can do about it!

[Mike DC]

 
I would actually agree with that for the most part.  Some tiny little scrap of sun activity can unleash a TON of environmental impact compared to most human endeavors.  And it's no secret that our climate has varied like hell throughout history.

I just think the scientific community has formed a pretty big consensus that we're in for a real warming trend in the next 100 years.  If it happens anything like it's being predicted, then we're pretty well screwed whether we caused it or not.  We're gonna be wishing we had done everything in our power to fight it. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My thinking just goes like this: 


Q.  What are the reasons to wanna seriously cut back on coal & oil? 

A.  We start seriously researching a way out of this dependence and end up leading the rest of the world on new energy solutions.  We reduce oil dependence all over the middle east.  We leave the rest of the coal-heavy areas of the US countryside sort of intact.  Healthier lifestyle.  Get suburban sprawl under control & start cleaning up the rotting cities.   Keep cars/trucks built correctly and affordable to purchase.  And probably some effect on the environment, could be anything from miniscule to significant.



Q.  What are the results of keeping on burning tons of oil & coal?  (Besides the opposite of everything above?) 

A.  Temporary economic gains and prolonging a lifestyle that is unsupportable within another 50 years anyway.  Just looking at the raw amount of resources still in the ground (even going by the most optimistic estimates), we won't have enough to keep it up more than a few more decades.

   

[pettyfan43]

Possibly, but 30 years ago the "Scientists" had a "consensus" that there was 30 years of oil left in the earth. They had their measuring devices, and said there was just so much.  By the way, there is no such thing as a consensus in science. At most it is theory and these scientists are PAID (Grants, subsidies and SALARY) to come up with conclusions.

Now 30 years later, there is STILL a 30 year supply and in some places there is actually MORE than was thought to be there back then.


In other words, more hooey.  The alarmists are always looking for SOMETHING to make waves about. A couple of years ago, this was "Global Warming". Well now since the climate has actually been COOLER (the warmest year on record over the past 100 years was actually 1998) it is now called "Climate Change". 
SO now ANY weather related phenomenon is called evidence of CLIMATE CHANGE, I got news for em, the only thing CONSTANT in the climate is that it CHANGES!!!

What is so bad is that there are SO MANY people that just fall in line with whatever they are told.

And the "climate change experts" are saying over the next 100 years the AVERAGE temp may rise as much as 3-5 degrees. There is more MARGIN ERROR than that in the climate AVERAGE for each year. 

The Air IS CLEANER than it was 30-40 years ago. Cars scavenge 90-95 percent of their OWN emissions. There are systems in place for industry. Still this is NOT ENOUGH for the greenies and the EPA. Now they want these ridiculous standards for gas mileage in place. 

As for DEPENDENCE on FOREIGN oil, if idiot liberal politicians would let the US drill for oil in our OWN space, we wouldn't NEED the foreign oil! 

Need proof of the absolute BS that IS "Global Climate Change"? 

Al Gore took great pains to make it understood that his companies buy "Carbon Credits" (What the h e double hockey sticks is a damn CARBON CREDIT?!??!!??)  to offset their "Carbon Footprint". And they buy them from a company that was started, is owned and directed by....................AL GORE!!!!  There's  an Inconvenient truth for ya!!!

Common sense and intelligence has taken leave in this country, NOBODY stops and takes time to research ANYTHING they are spoonfed by the media. Nobody stops to question things they are told because somebody says "Scientists say" because there are JUST as many SCIENTISTS that say the Global Warming Climate change "experts" are very wrong! 

A group of scientists decided to take this climate change BS to task and check out the placement of several hundred of these "climate change" thermometers that the readings were derived from.

Know what they found?  That 80% of these things were NOT placed out in the open as they should be, they were in downtown areas placed between OFFICE BUILDINGS, they were placed in areas of clustered buildings, RIGHT ABOVE the HVAC systems (Those give off some heat!) and at least two were found at the edge of ON RAMPS at MAJOR metropolitan AIRPORTS!!!! Can you say Jetwash? YEP they were placed where EVERY TIME an airplane entered a runway, the exhaust would blow right over them thermometer.  If you are a scientists being PAID big money to come up with a conclusion, you WILL find a way to come to said conclusion.

This theory is a LOT more POLITICAL than it is SCIENTIFIC!  The stuff I have said is all verifiable and if you want to research it you can, but it isn't easy. The news networks who are by and large liberal, and the environmental groups (ditto) have a vested interest in making this news as low key as possible. Then you have the hollywood types who give an academy award to a pile of crap like algore's movie that is FULL OF misinformation. And DON'T think for a SECOND that there isn't a a money issue with algore.   He's making a HUGE profit from this whole thing, global warming/Climate change is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the people of this planet!!!

[RECHRGD]

Possibly, but 30 years ago the "Scientists" had a "consensus" that there was 30 years of oil left in the earth. They had their measuring devices, and said there was just so much. By the way, there is no such thing as a consensus in science. At most it is theory and these scientists are PAID (Grants, subsidies and SALARY) to come up with conclusions.

Now 30 years later, there is STILL a 30 year supply and in some places there is actually MORE than was thought to be there back then.


In other words, more hooey. The alarmists are always looking for SOMETHING to make waves about. A couple of years ago, this was "Global Warming". Well now since the climate has actually been COOLER (the warmest year on record over the past 100 years was actually 1998) it is now called "Climate Change".
SO now ANY weather related phenomenon is called evidence of CLIMATE CHANGE, I got news for em, the only thing CONSTANT in the climate is that it CHANGES!!!

What is so bad is that there are SO MANY people that just fall in line with whatever they are told.

And the "climate change experts" are saying over the next 100 years the AVERAGE temp may rise as much as 3-5 degrees. There is more MARGIN ERROR than that in the climate AVERAGE for each year.

The Air IS CLEANER than it was 30-40 years ago. Cars scavenge 90-95 percent of their OWN emissions. There are systems in place for industry. Still this is NOT ENOUGH for the greenies and the EPA. Now they want these ridiculous standards for gas mileage in place.

As for DEPENDENCE on FOREIGN oil, if idiot liberal politicians would let the US drill for oil in our OWN space, we wouldn't NEED the foreign oil!

Need proof of the absolute BS that IS "Global Climate Change"?

Al Gore took great pains to make it understood that his companies buy "Carbon Credits" (What the h e double hockey sticks is a damn CARBON CREDIT?!??!!??) to offset their "Carbon Footprint". And they buy them from a company that was started, is owned and directed by....................AL GORE!!!! There's an Inconvenient truth for ya!!!

Common sense and intelligence has taken leave in this country, NOBODY stops and takes time to research ANYTHING they are spoonfed by the media. Nobody stops to question things they are told because somebody says "Scientists say" because there are JUST as many SCIENTISTS that say the Global Warming Climate change "experts" are very wrong!

A group of scientists decided to take this climate change BS to task and check out the placement of several hundred of these "climate change" thermometers that the readings were derived from.

Know what they found? That 80% of these things were NOT placed out in the open as they should be, they were in downtown areas placed between OFFICE BUILDINGS, they were placed in areas of clustered buildings, RIGHT ABOVE the HVAC systems (Those give off some heat!) and at least two were found at the edge of ON RAMPS at MAJOR metropolitan AIRPORTS!!!! Can you say Jetwash? YEP they were placed where EVERY TIME an airplane entered a runway, the exhaust would blow right over them thermometer. If you are a scientists being PAID big money to come up with a conclusion, you WILL find a way to come to said conclusion.

This theory is a LOT more POLITICAL than it is SCIENTIFIC! The stuff I have said is all verifiable and if you want to research it you can, but it isn't easy. The news networks who are by and large liberal, and the environmental groups (ditto) have a vested interest in making this news as low key as possible. Then you have the hollywood types who give an academy award to a pile of crap like algore's movie that is FULL OF misinformation. And DON'T think for a SECOND that there isn't a a money issue with algore. He's making a HUGE profit from this whole thing, global warming/Climate change is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the people of this planet!!!

Come on now!  Tell us how you really feel!!  Actually, I totally agree with most of that.  The global warming "scientists" also covered their butts by saying that extreme weather conditions (record snow and cold) would be a bi-product of the global warming process.  Now my very liberal daughter in Oregon is afraid that things are happening sooner than predicted because of the severe winter we've had this year.   It's like talking to a boulder.   Bob

[Mike DC]

   
I don't think what I think because of Al Gore.  I've never seen his "Inconvenient Truth" movie.

Most of my opinion about oil/cars/gas doesn't even come from concerns about the environment at all. 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The estimates of oil in the ground were more conservative 30-40 years ago.  And we also got more economical with the stuff for many years after the '73 oil embargo, which bought us some more time over the original perdictions too. 


The biggest oil reserves that we still think are left in any country on earth is Saudi Arabia. They've basically been running on the same 5 uber-gigantic oil fields that they discovered 40-50 years ago.  The Saudis keep claiming that they have plenty more oil fields where that came from and everyone believes them.  But the fact is that their main giant & supergiant fields are being pumped so hard & fast that it's at the verge of hurting the fields' ultiamate oil yield.  And yet the Saudis keep dumping more & more money into wringing the rest of the oil from just these waning main fields year after year.  And their (major) exploration efforts haven't turned up much of any new oil since the 1970s.  And there hasn't been an outside audit on the current state of the whole country's oil reserves in decades.  Hmmm  .  .  .



The world's long-term oil estimates have mostly gone up because science has invented better methods of getting more oil out of the ground than they originally thought they could.  Partly driven by higher oil prices. 

But this won't work forever.  With any engineering feat, the earliest improvements are more cost-effective & beneficial, and then it gets more and more work for less and less gains all the way to the end.  (Same reason it's a whole lot easier to make a drag car go from 14's to 13's than trying to go from 10's to 9's.)



Part of the constantly improving oil gains in the recent decades have been the result of getting the same oil out of the ground more quickly than in the past.  The planet's oil reserve isn't getting a whole lot "fuller" so much as it's just getting drained a lot faster & more completely than we used to think was possible.  (Russia has been finding "more" oil partly by just pumping their existing oil fields recklessly fast & hard.)

Horizontal drilling, higher & higher well pressures, worse water cuts in the resulting oil, deeper & deeper drilling, heavier & less profitable grades of oil that the world's refineries are mostly not even equipped to handle yet, etc.

But once again, this won't work forever.  Probably not even for another 50 years at the current rate of usage. 



We've taken about half the world's oil out of the ground already.  We definitely took the easiest, cheapest, and more energy-efficient half first.  And we won't ever get anywhere near all of it.  We'll only keep pumping the stuff until we reach the point of spending more to get what's left than it's worth.  That point will come WAY before the world's oil supply is theoretically gone to the last drop. 

   
 

[Ghoste]

Sorry for my ignorance here Mike because I am wading into a topic in which I am really not equipped to debate but when I hear people make definitive statements about oil reserves such as "we've used up half the worlds supply" (not a direct quote obviously), I can help but shake my head in wonder.  I know the stuff is finite and I know that geologists must have a pretty good idea of what's out there, but the statement still leaves me bewildered.  It just seems so definite on a topic that by most accounts does not appear to be a perfect science.
Again, I'm not really debating you because like most of the world, I am petroleum ignorant, just stating my impressions. 

[Mike DC]

That's very true. 

You singled out that point when you read it, and I thought twice about putting that exact comment in my post when I wrote it.



Nobody really knows anything in the oil business for sure.  You're right. 
I've been trying to absorb it for years and it's still startling what kinds of unexpected stuff happens in that industry all the time. 

There is definitely more oil in the earth than we will ever extract.  It's like all kinds of other natural resources --  we don't truly retrieve every bit of it, we just retrieve every bit of it that is anywhere near cost-effective to get.  It becomes a judgement call about how high the price will go, and how much better the technology will get to retrieve more of it later. 



But there are some built-in limitations that can be taken to the bank:

--  There's a limit to how deep we'll ever find oil, because eventually we get so deep that there weren't enough living things on the earth in those years to make the stuff. 

--  And there's a limit to where we'll ever find it, because it more or less has to be in areas that were once dry land at the right times.  (As I understand it, offshore oil rigs are still only drilling where there was once dry land in the past.) 

--  And there are more limits on locations beyond that.  Only certain kinds of rock formations trapped & pressurized the raw materials long enough to make oil a long time ago, and then only some of those formations have kept it there long enough for us to retrieve it in the present. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Environmentalists and oil barons alike share a few opinions.  People with very big brains and very big engineering/geology degrees seem to have a rough consensus on these things.  They mostly say we're either at or near the halfway point of the world's realistically-reachable supply of oil. 

I'm just repeating what they say. 

 

[AmadeusCharger500]

I really expected better than the fantasy in this thread even though I understand we all have our dreams. If anyone should be coping with this issue its the people who love their cars.
Anyone know what the word fossil means?

[Brock Samson]

btw:
there's a new word in the lexicon... "greenwash".
like toyota's we are so damn green commercials,.. honda does it too, but i have no idea if you see the same commercials I do...
seems every commercial on TV or in the liberal media.... lol..    touts how the product advertised is gonna save the planet..


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/greenwash

also in relation to the volcano remarks...

http://www.rense.com/general67/aag.htm

it could be quite possible that these periodic vulcanic "burps" will wipe us as quickly as our own generated greenhouse gases...
another thing that came to mind is that when our imported supplies of oil are finally at an end, we "may" still have out as of yet untapped domestic supplies avail. perhaps not due to long-term stratigic planning, but because of supposed enviormental concerns.
Just puttin it out there,.. I'm no expert, just mulling things over... 

what's this thread about again?.. 

[Charger_Fan]

what's this thread about again?.. 

Anal warts.

[Brock Samson]

here's one for ya'

http://www.physorg.com/news137216197.html