440 cam questions UPDATE 10/27/08

[1970440RT]

Hopefully Ron is listening...

Previously I purchased a 440 from a machine shop that the previous owner could not pay for.  The motor was assembled.

specs are:

10.5 to 1 comp
forged crank
six pack rods
trw pistons
"performance" ported 452 iron heads - 2.14 / 1.81 valves

cam: Mopar Perf. purple shaft p/n 4452993
Duration @050: 238
Lift: 474
LSA: 110

I put an Edelbrock Torker 2 Intake with a 800 CFM Edelbrock carb on it.

This set up went into a 70 Challenger with a 727, a 10" 3000 stall TCI converter, Dana 60 rear w/3.55's and Headers.

After installing the motor, it was pinging like crazy no matter what I tried.  Filling up with race gas was the only cure.  I switched over to 88cc Edelbrock heads and was able to run 93 Octane gas. 

Tuning was another issue as the engine likes so much initial advance that the engine is hard to start after running a while.  Total timing is in at 37 deg around 2500 - 3000 rpm.  The engine runs best at where I have it set now.

I took this combo to the track and despite some tranny linkage issues (the tranny would shift itself with the flex of the body), I was able to eak out a 13.552 @102.17mph with a lazy 2.073 60'.

My tires were 255 60 15, after track day I got new 275 60 15's

I don't know why this cam was installed in this motor, I have never heard of anyone using it or recommending it.  I would like to change the cam to wake the motor up. 

This motor is coming out of the Chally after this upcoming summer and going into a 4 speed 68 Charger w/3.55's that is on the rotisserie as I type.  I would like to build the motor for that car while running it in the Chally and working out all the bugs.

Any Help?

[Dartbloke]

I have the same spec. 440 in my Dart, except I use  the mopar performance "original" .509 hydraulic cam. No pinging at all on pump gas, timing at 14 initial and 35 all in. Thing pulls like a train, 11.3 @119.

[1970440RT]

Dartbloke, that is freakin' amazing!  What rear gear and converter are you running?

I had the "newer" 509 in my old 440 and it was not what I expected with my 3.55's although it did run better than the current cam.  When I initially had the 509, my car had 4.10's and it seemed to work pretty well but as soon as I changed to the 3.55's, the car became a dog.  I do not want to go back to the 509 based on my previous experience and rear end ratio.  It seems the general concensus is there are better grinds out there for the guys without 4.10's or 4.56's.

[firefighter3931]

With that combo and a 4 speed i would be looking at a custom Engle grind ; k58/k60 on a 110* lsa. The engine would also respond favorably to a double pumper carb.


Ron

[1970440RT]

Thanks Ron.

I know you get bombarded by cam questions all the time, I appreciate your response.

I assume I can use my existing springs and valvetrain with the Engle as they are relatively new.  Will I need to change anything at all?  3 bolt cam gear? 

I plan on a new carb for when I install this motor in the Charger, I see you like the 850 proform so I'll probably go with that unless advised otherwise.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron.

I know you get bombarded by cam questions all the time, I appreciate your response.

I assume I can use my existing springs and valvetrain with the Engle as they are relatively new.  Will I need to change anything at all?  3 bolt cam gear? 

I plan on a new carb for when I install this motor in the Charger, I see you like the 850 proform so I'll probably go with that unless advised otherwise.

The stock E-Head springs will work fine....no upgrades needed there. The Engle Cam can be ordered with a single bolt upper gear...just specify that when ordering. Use Blue loctite on the cam bolt and torque to specs...no worries there.

The Proform 750 dp'er would be a better choice with a single plane (Torker) and the throttle response will be crisper with the higher velocity venturies of the 750. Those proform carbs flow way more than advertised....my 750 PF carb was a measured 830 cfm on the flowbench. Enough air and fuel for 540hp on the dyno....so it will work fine on yours. 

That cam with the DP Proform 750 and stock E-heads will put you into the 470-480 hp range & over 500 ftlbs of tire twisting torque. 



Ron

[1970440RT]

Finally, an update:

     I was able to make it to test and tune last month with the old cam ( purple shaft 474 lift ) and surprised myself as I picked up a 1/2 second.  I fixed the tranny linkage so the car wouldn't shift itself in and out of gear and had the new 275 60 15 tires put on.  Best of four passes was a 13.0 @ 106 mph.  The 60's were between 1.9 to 2.0.  Not bad for this cam, I guess.

     The only bad news from this trip is I blew out the bottom of my Flowmaster on the passenger side.  I noticed some corrosion on it in the Spring but figured it would be OK.  Apparently not. 

     Ron, the next step is to put that Engle K58 or K60 in over the winter as you recommended. 

Do you think the K60 is over the top for a hydraulic in my combo?  My only goal at this point is to go as fast as I can with out changing too many things ( bottom end ).

[firefighter3931]

Finally, an update:

     I was able to make it to test and tune last month with the old cam ( purple shaft 474 lift ) and surprised myself as I picked up a 1/2 second.  I fixed the tranny linkage so the car wouldn't shift itself in and out of gear and had the new 275 60 15 tires put on.  Best of four passes was a 13.0 @ 106 mph.  The 60's were between 1.9 to 2.0.  Not bad for this cam, I guess.

     The only bad news from this trip is I blew out the bottom of my Flowmaster on the passenger side.  I noticed some corrosion on it in the Spring but figured it would be OK.  Apparently not. 

     Ron, the next step is to put that Engle K58 or K60 in over the winter as you recommended. 

Do you think the K60 is over the top for a hydraulic in my combo?  My only goal at this point is to go as fast as I can with out changing too many things ( bottom end ).

The K60 would be fine in your motor but i don't think you have enough gear (3.54) or stall (3000) to make it work really well. I still like the K58 or a k58/k60 split pattern grind with your current combination. Now if you were willing to go deeper on the gears and looser on the stall speed then it would be a different story. 

Don't overcam it....biggest mistake most guys make and then they're not happy. 

Nice inmprovement on the MPH....it's showing some promise. Next thing to do is replace the junk flowmasters and install a set of Dynomax Ultraflows. 

A proform 750 double pumper would be on my shopping list as well 



Ron

[1970440RT]

I bought the Proform 750 ( the purple one ) and noticed an immediate improvement out of the box over the Edelbrock 800.  The throttle response was much crisper and immediate.  Even without the choke, the car fired right up.  Good so far.  I made no adjustments to the carb.  I also haven't changed the cam yet, I'm trying to squeeze every last drop of performance out of this combo. 

I took the car to the last test n tune of the season at Pittsburgh Raceway Park this past weekend and on my second pass ran 12.91 @ 105mph.  My third pass was a 12.97 @ 104 because I seem to still have a tranny linkage glitch where the car went into neutral at the 1000' mark forcing me to let off for a split second.  60' for both runs were 1.94.

This was my first time in the 12's and it was fantastic!!! 

I am getting ready to order the k58/k60  cam to install and can't wait to run in the spring!. The bad part about this tinkering is I can't get any body work done on the 68.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I agree with Ron (as usual)    I have used a K58/K60 Engle with a couple street engines and they always seem to run great - always good low end torque as well as top end horsepower...    awesome cams!

[firefighter3931]

I bought the Proform 750 ( the purple one ) and noticed an immediate improvement out of the box over the Edelbrock 800.  The throttle response was much crisper and immediate.  Even without the choke, the car fired right up. 

No surprise there....the PF carbs are awesome 

I took the car to the last test n tune of the season at Pittsburgh Raceway Park this past weekend and on my second pass ran 12.91 @ 105mph.  My third pass was a 12.97 @ 104 because I seem to still have a tranny linkage glitch where the car went into neutral at the 1000' mark forcing me to let off for a split second.  60' for both runs were 1.94.

This was my first time in the 12's and it was fantastic!!! 

Congrats on the new bests.....great feeling huh !  The sickness is just beginning....be prepared 

I am getting ready to order the k58/k60  cam to install and can't wait to run in the spring! 

Get ready for some new bests next year....you're gonna luv that cam ! 

The bad part about this tinkering is I can't get any body work done on the 68.

This is difinative proof that the aformentioned sickness has set in.   

No worries...you have all winter to do bodywork....enjoy the good weather while you can. 




Ron