Sub-Frame Connectors Better than other?

[Blown70]

Ok, I did do a search (troy).  Does anyone have a preference in Sub-Frame connectors.  US car Tool.  XV motor sports. OTHER?

Thanks for any info.

Tom

[Ghoste]

I don't own a set (yet), but I have looked at a few and personally, I like the US Car Tool ones best.  I just like the idea of being made for the car and having met John Paseman (the owner and a 66 Charger freak as well) a number of times, I came away impressed.

[moparguy01]

2x3 rectangular tubing. thats what i've used in a 2nd gen charger and its cheaper.

[The70RT]

I got the MoPar ones # 1-P4286869. The car tool ones look better and look more factory. Any way you go the purist will  be Mine is just a U code R/T so...........

[Mike DC]

I'm a fan of welding them into place and staying relatively small with the tube.  Just get whatever decent SCs you like that don't cut the flooring to shreds, and get them mounted well.

Something like 2x2 or 2x3 steel is certainly "good" for SCs, but welding gigantic I-beams into the area isn't necessarily "better."   You just need enough added frame in center the area to make it not be the weakest link in the whole chassis any longer.  Once you've even just got some 2x2 square tubing or something in the area, the biggest flexing point in the chassis is probably gonna be moved to somewhere else.  (Like the torque boxes if you don't have them.)   

 

[Big Sugar]

I'm a fan of welding them into place and staying relatively small with the tube.  Just get whatever decent SCs you like that don't cut the flooring to shreds, and get them mounted well.

Something like 2x2 or 2x3 steel is certainly "good" for SCs, but welding gigantic I-beams into the area isn't necessarily "better."   You just need enough added frame in center the area to make it not be the weakest link in the whole chassis any longer.  Once you've even just got some 2x2 square tubing or something in the area, the biggest flexing point in the chassis is probably gonna be moved to somewhere else.  (Like the torque boxes if you don't have them.)   

 

I agree.

The Us Cartool units are nice if your in the middle of a full resto , But there is a easier way just going with the tubing. Auto Rust technologies
have a good description as well as photo's on a typical Mopar installation .
That's the route I would choose.


Ron

[suntech]

I think there is no question about what style gives the best improved rigidity. That is the style that XV and US Car Tool is the ones that gives best improvement, beeing welded against the floor. That boxes up the construction a hell of a lot better than anything else!
The downside with them is that all that welding requires stripping carpets and stuff inside, so i guess it depends on where you are in the resto prosess, what engine that goes in there, and if it is going to see strip action on slick tires.
On the XV dvd, right from the beginning, you can see a Cuda launch, on the strip. There you can actually see that the body warps, and door openings are getting 3 times as wide in top, so there was NOT strong enaugh connectors.
Rolf

[Blown70]

Ok, that helps but I had not planned torque boxes,  I see that maybe something I should plan on while under the car too?

Thanks again for all the replies.

Ohhh the car will be stripped too, so welding to the floor would not be a problem and the car is an XP not XS, so being a non-R/T car I am not too concerned with the value...

Thanks again.

Tom

[BrianShaughnessy]

Ok, that helps but I had not planned torque boxes,  I see that maybe something I should plan on while under the car too?

Thanks again for all the replies.

Ohhh the car will be stripped too, so welding to the floor would not be a problem and the car is an XP not XS, so being a non-R/T car I am not too concerned with the value...

Thanks again.

Tom

XP / XS - don't matter... put them on.    Put on the torque boxes too.    I've had them on for years.   

If I had a trailer queen XX,  well maybe I'd think twice before welding them on.

[suntech]

When you are in the stage you are, i think your choice is simple then!!!! Weld in sub frames, like XV or Us Car Tool, and a set of torque boxes, and you´re all set
Remember to drill drain holes in the subframes, to allow anti rust treatment. 
Rolf

[firefighter3931]

I think there is no question about what style gives the best improved rigidity. That is the style that XV and US Car Tool is the ones that gives best improvement, beeing welded against the floor. That boxes up the construction a hell of a lot better than anything else!

Rolf

I'm not convinced that a 3 sided connector (XV/US Cartool) is stronger than a fully boxed thickwall tube like the MP setup. The floorpans are thinner than the solid connector and therefore weaker.

From an appearance standpoint the contoured connectors "look" nicer but are they really better ? 



Ron

[Ghoste]

If they're thinner, couldn't the argument be made that they need a little help that much more?  It is a uni-body so the entire vehicle is part of the load carrying structure, correct?  Kind of an every little bit helps thing?
That's a lot of question marks huh?

[suntech]

Ron
I am pretty damn sure they are better, simply because the way this design box up the construction, and that itself makes it much better than an "added on" tube, just fixed in each end.
I am working on QC dep in a big company, mostly testing cranes, to put on offshore oilrigs, and the ONLY downside with a boxed construction, is the side surface area, for the wind to grab on to, operating them in bad weather. In all other areas it has a superior weight to strength ratio, so i will still put my  on the boxed ones, since the side surface area is no issue here, but this is just my opinion

Rolf

[The70RT]

I think there is no question about what style gives the best improved rigidity. That is the style that XV and US Car Tool is the ones that gives best improvement, beeing welded against the floor. That boxes up the construction a hell of a lot better than anything else!

Rolf

I'm not convinced that a 3 sided connector (XV/US Cartool) is stronger than a fully boxed thickwall tube like the MP setup. The floorpans are thinner than the solid connector and therefore weaker.

From an appearance standpoint the contoured connectors "look" nicer but are they really better ? 



Ron

I was wondering the same too Ron. Nobody else spoke up so I thought why bring it up? The XV/US Cartool look more factory but a real Mopar person knows anyway. The XV/US Cartool ones take more time to install and would cost more to have them installed if you had someplace do them for you.

[Troy]

The XV/US Car Tool connectors are only three sided until you weld them in. They are just like the factory frame rails so I don't think the thinner metal on the floor would significantly weaken anything. I never realized how much strength you could get out of something once it's tied together until I built a steel carport/building. That metal is thin and the whole thing seems rickety but after you stick a few hundred bolts in it to tie all the parts together it's rock solid. I have rectangle tubes cut for mine but I doubt that I will use them since the contoured ones blend in so much better. Torque boxes tie the rockers (which are as thin as the floors but without stiffeners) to the frame rails so a combination of both should really stiffen things up - no matter which subframe connectors are used. If you look at most road racing cars they'll also have an 'X' brace under the center of the car and gusseting at all the frame intersections to keep the chassis square.

Troy

[piwo440]

I lurk around here a lot, but don't post much,  I am usually on the 66-67 Charger forum.    But I thought I would put in my  anyway!

I just installed USCartool connectors in my 66 Charger, excellent pieces!  I talked to John on the phone before buying them and he told me outright that they would need a little trimming to fit perfect, and they did.... not much though.  I love the idea of having them look factory, even though as said before, anyone would know they don't belong there.  As far as the ease of installation,  yes... you have to strip out your carpet seats, etc...  but why would anyone want to sacrifice and take short cuts on something like this?  For all the time and money we put into our cars, do it right, and do it the way you want to....  not just "do it the easiest way". 

I have not yet been able to test them, car is still "under construction", but with my 20+ years experience with unibody vehicles, (work in collision shop)... I believe these are the better set up.....  I think it was Troy that was talking about how strong something was when all tied together,   and he is correct,  you can take any individual piece from a unibody vehicle and it is flimsy as hell....  once you start welding the structure together,  it gets very strong. 

There ya go.....  for what it's worth....   my 

Ron
66 383/727
ZZ1 P4W WW

[firefighter3931]

Ron
I am pretty damn sure they are better, simply because the way this design box up the construction, and that itself makes it much better than an "added on" tube, just fixed in each end.
I am working on QC dep in a big company, mostly testing cranes, to put on offshore oilrigs, and the ONLY downside with a boxed construction, is the side surface area, for the wind to grab on to, operating them in bad weather. In all other areas it has a superior weight to strength ratio, so i will still put my  on the boxed ones, since the side surface area is no issue here, but this is just my opinion

Rolf

Rolf, i understand what you are saying but you have to consider the wall thickness of the tubes to make a valid comparison. The square boxed .125 MP connector will be stronger than the stamped tin floorpan...wouldn't you agree. 

Also when you weld sheetmetal the original structural integrity is compromised somewhat. 

Having been around many, many racecars i can tell you the frame connector of choice is allways a thick wall boxed tube that does not use the floorpan as a structural member. 


The US cartool/XV connectors are nice looking and i'm sure are a huge improvement over an untied front/rear subframe but they would not be my first choice for a high HP street/strip dual purpose car.


Would i use them on a hot streetcar/cruiser type build that sees the occasional track pass....absolutely.




Ron

[suntech]

Hi Ron
For a street/ strip (stoplight to stoplight) application i buy some of your points, but i still mean that in overall the welded ones will perform better, spesially in warp/ twist.
This because the connectors help to hold the floor in place, hense help the warping strength, simply by holding the floorpans where they are supposed to be. The hump for the driveshaft does a similar job, with the floor in the car (floppy like hell as a loose piece, but helps stiffness when fitted in)
The 3 sides of the connector will make it even even stiffer. All 3 sides help the same way as a bolted on connector, and the bottom side and top (the floor) helps warp. this effect is much stronger when fully fixed against the floor, since it then help the existing parts to be stiffer. ( a cardboard box is pretty darn rigid, if properly taped together)
I understand that people question this, specially with the thin walls etc, but it is really amazing how far down on material thickness you can go, when you "lock" the construction in a correct way.
XV did a lot of work in the 4 post test stand , calculating how many pounds of force , pr degree of twist etc. then they added different stuff to the car, to make it stiffer, and then tested again. I would assume, with the money and time they have putted in to their program, they thought carefully trough what they did.
But again, just my opinion!! That is the great thing with this forum........we can release our brainfarts
Rolf

[BrianShaughnessy]

I don't want to knock anybody putting on connectors... because I believe that they are one of the key things that should be done to any old unibody musclecar to help stiffen it up.   I don't care what brand somebody decides to use as long as they are used.   Old cars twist, flex  and creak and it's unnecessary...  I would put them on the list of upgrades that should be done if and when possible along with front disk brakes and electronic ignition.   If the basic unibody structure was compromised by collision or rust and or rust/collsion repair...  it just seems logical given a choice.

But I will say in defense of the old MP's and other  box tube designs...    you can use them as jacking points - I probably wouldnt' do that with the uscar or xv designs.    I know I have.

Isn't it great that now's there's a range of choices of what type to use?     5 or 6 years ago there was MP's... and auto rust technicians was just coming out with theirs.

[Steve P.]

I gotta say that all sides of this are relative. My .02 :

1) absolutely these cars need to be stiffened up for every reason.

2) Both the square tube and 3-sided designs will work well. Especially if done right. Just bolting them in is a help, but welding them in is really the only good way to go.

3) The US Cartool connectors look great and from all my experience working with steel in the nuclear field I can tell you that Troy's point of multiple connections is exactly right. Also as long as they are MIG welded in the floorboards should not be made brittle from the welding.

4) The square tube is thicker than the factory sheet metal and the framing from Ma Mopar. This being said, the week point of adding the tubing is at each end where it is welded to the framing. I personally don't think the aftermarket uses enough plate at each end of the box tubes. I believe the forward end should have a channeled U-channel that can be welded on both the back and the front of the cross brace. Without doing this the cross brace is now a weaker point than the rest. At the back they do form a socket of sorts and it is, I feel, much better. Just welding the through holes and bolts is more of just a bandaid. They need to be completely welded.

5) What I like better is 2x3 rectangular tubing. I have seen it laid on the flat and I think it helps more this way to keep the body from racking. Again I much prefer this done with a C channel at the front..

6) Another way I like is more for the drag crowd than the street crowd. This is using 2x3 tubing in the vertical position, only cutting through the floor boards and channeling them in. This lets you weld on both sides and gives a much better land area for the ROLL BAR.   

7) Along with welding in the ties, the floors only have spot welds from the factory. Full welding the joints will also help to keep the body from racking.


Any ties are better than no ties. More welds are better than a few tacks and bolting in your ties is only slightly better than no ties.

This is just MHO.... 

did I mention that my last 65' had 1/4 wall 2x2" tubing with lots of extra plating??  That wasn't going anywhere... 

[Troy]

Another thought if you're really looking for the strongest approach yet still want it to look like factory...

I think it was Daytonalo (shhhh, don't tell him or you'll feed his ego) that put a square tube inside the US Car Tool connectors to make them stronger but keeping the smooth look. From my little understanding of metal I do agree with Ron that the square tube is probably strongest but it's only welded on each end. It doesn't matter how thick the tube itself is when you're welding it to thinner metal as the joint becomes the weak point. Welding them down the entire length distributes the load. It'd be cool to actually measure the difference but not many people have the equipment or resources to do that. Even XV incorporates an entire stiffening system instead of just the connectors so that all weak points are covered and compliment each other. For what it's worth, I paid $20 for enough tube to make three cars worth of connectors (and got them cut for free) so there's another advantage to the basic approach.

Troy

[Mike DC]

 
All this is good stuff.  But after a certain point the rollcage begins to be the heavy-lifter in terms of chassis rigidity.  If you've got decent SCs & torque boxes and you're still worried about it, then IMO it's time to start putting the effort into a more extensive cage. 

The XV braces at the front rad support and the shock towers are certainly good too, but XV was really thinking about uncaged cars on road courses more than dragstrip work specifically.  (For that matter, their top level front suspension setup involves tossing the torsion bars and mounting the vehicle wieght onto the front shock towers with coilovers.  Little wonder that they're in favor of adding some extra shock tower bracing.)




Dragstrip launches mostly tend to distort the rear 2/3 of the unibody behind the tranny crossmember.  Those harsh wheels-up launches are the equivalent of basically grabbing the chassis by the rear suspension mounting points, and then trying to hold the front end tilted up into the air that way.  And the right side-unloading of a solid rear axle is having a similar effect on the stresses from side to side.

The front 1/3 of a drag car doesn't usually get affected a whole lot unless you lift off the throttle during a wheelie and crash the front end down hard on a set of floppy front springs.  (The desert race truck crowd has made MAJOR leaps & bounds on improving bumpstop tech in the last decade.  Sooner or later that stuff will probably start showing up in the front ends of dedicated drag cars as a safety precaution.  It would really save their floppy-sprung front ends & oil pans on hard drops.)

           

[suntech]

This is also what i mean!
20 years ago, nobody was thinking about a muscle car as a road "racer" !!
It was all about dragstrip performance back then, and subframes was buildt to hold up agains the forces applyed to the chassis on brutal big hp slick launches.
In a pro touring car you want other qualities from the chassis. Body warp, and front end rigidity is important, to get the car to handle on a racetrack, or curvy roads.
I think this is one of the reasons that we have different ideas of how to do stuff like this. A clash between old habits, and new ideas and userpattern.
Rolf

[Blown70]

Sounds like a good discussion here.  I will be putting a roll cage in the car too, and thus have more structure to make the car rigid.  However not sure how much of a cage at this point.

I already planned on plating a few parts of the existing frame, and the care will be completely stripped to do so..... no worries there.

THANKS FOR EVRYONES IMPUT...

Tom

[firefighter3931]

Sounds like a good discussion here.  I will be putting a roll cage in the car too, and thus have more structure to make the car rigid.  However not sure how much of a cage at this point.

I already planned on plating a few parts of the existing frame, and the care will be completely stripped to do so..... no worries there.

THANKS FOR EVRYONES IMPUT...

Tom

Tom, the cage is an excellent idea !  Mine has an 8pt bar in it and it made the chassis so much tighter that it's not even funny. With a Blown motor in your future this is a no-brainer. 



Ron

[Blown70]

I should have also stated this is for my 69, the 70 charger is welll....... all tubes with a 4 link anyway.....

[HeavyFuel]

US Cartool.  Turning out pretty good so far.

[Steve P.]

Looks great....  I wish they had come from the factory this way...   How much weight do you figure you just added to the car? Maybe 12 - 18 pounds?? Just think how many cracked "B" pillars and quarter skins would have been saved...

[Yeahmate]

US cartool. Not the easiest to install, but take the time in fabbing them up right and they look the part. Note; had to make up the park brake cable access trough the frame

[suntech]

Nice............Liked the way you made the cable guide

[HeavyFuel]

Yeah, I did that too.

[charger_mike75]

I got a question, on the bolt in SC, how did you guys drill the rear holes?   I got a set of Competition Engineering SC and couldn't get the drill straight enough to drill the rear holes.   

[Rack]

I think you can put a piece of tape on the part you're drilling to help keep the drill straight.

[The70RT]

I think you can put a piece of tape on the part you're drilling to help keep the drill straight.

That or start out with a 1/8" bit and drill a pilot hole.

[charger_mike75]

I tried that, my problem was my drill was hitting the rocker preventing me from getting a hole started.

[The70RT]

I tried that, my problem was my drill was hitting the rocker preventing me from getting a hole started.

I never encountered that. Maybe get an 45 degree angle adapter for your drill.

[bill440rt]

I got a question, on the bolt in SC, how did you guys drill the rear holes?   I got a set of Competition Engineering SC and couldn't get the drill straight enough to drill the rear holes.   

I can't speak for the C.E. ones, but for the MP connectors I held them in place with a jack underneath, marked all the holes & with a center punch, then removed the connectors. I drilled each hole separately from each side. The bolts lined up fine.

I ground the mating surfaces to bare metal, & bolted them in place combined with 3M panel bond adhesive (STRONG stuff!). My floorpans were freshly painted so I couldn't weld them in without doing damage. I figured, bolting them along with the panel bond adhesive has gotta be stronger than bolting them in alone, even if it isn't as strong as welding.

[Back N Black]

Turning a car from side to side on a rotisserie, is it not a issue with stress the body and frame on a uni-body car?

When welding or bolting in the sub-frame connectors should the car be level and on four axle stands?

[The70RT]

Turning a car from side to side on a rotisserie, is it not a issue with stress the body and frame on a uni-body car?

When welding or bolting in the sub-frame connectors should the car be level and on four axle stands?

That question arose on here on various threads and most think it doesn't matter. Some are even putting rear quarters floors front fenders and doors on while on a rotissorie. If you have a solid foundation to start with it shouldn't matter.

[HeavyFuel]

Turning a car from side to side on a rotisserie, is it not a issue with stress the body and frame on a uni-body car?

When welding or bolting in the sub-frame connectors should the car be level and on four axle stands?

That question arose on here on various threads and most think it doesn't matter. Some are even putting rear quarters floors front fenders and doors on while on a rotissorie. If you have a solid foundation to start with it shouldn't matter.

US cartools highly recommends that the car be level when welding in the SF connectors.  My car was made as level as possible, tacked, then turned on it's side for the final bead.  My car has very little rust, but I didn't want to take any chances.

[troy.70R/T]

i have been looking for torque boxes but can only find that auto rust techinicians makes them. Does anyone else make them? I have lookied at XV motorsports and U.S. Car Tool but do not see them on their web site. I would like to XV or U.S. Car Tool frame connectors but was hoping to but the torque boxes from the same place as well. I see the U.S Car Tool advertises their frame connectors as .125 wall Does anyone know how thic XV's frame connectors are?

[colrmustang]

.

[AutoRust]

I make rear torque boxes, working on the front ones currently.

Dude, about those rear torque boxes your "making"?   


Did you buy them directly from me and are trying to pass them off as something you "made"?     

Get real, those are the torque boxes from Auto Rust. Dont even try to imply differently. 

I have been active on this board for several years, most everyone on here knows me and my products, and everyone knows I make those rear torque boxes, they are not exact duplicates of the factory ones, they are actually a lot better.

Be a big man now, post up here and tell everyone you made a mistake and the rear torque boxes you have are from Auto Rust Technicians, and you would be happy to help them get  a set at the group discount available to all charger.com members

Otherwise , lets just say we don't play nicely with people that steal our stuff.


Thanks

Dave

[mauve66]

from his posting on www.66-67charger.com my understanding is he got a set from them and then made copies for alot less thean they were selling them, they aren't patented so free market trade as i understand it

[colrmustang]

I've grown really tired of this; IF you want to have someone apologize, then you talk to them one on one, WHICH IS NOT HARD TO DO SEEING AS HOW MY INFORMATION IS ON HERE. If you want me to stop, then I will since it cuts in your profits. A simple email saying stop is all that is needed. I get tired of everyone who is in this hobby making a killing off of anyone who wants to improve these cars.

[AutoRust]

from his posting on www.66-67charger.com my understanding is he got a set from them and then made copies for alot less thean they were selling them, they aren't patented so free market trade as i understand it

Umm, no, there not " A LOT" cheaper then I sell them for.
Direct from my web site

Torque boxes were also known as "hemi boxes" or "double floor plates". Our tests have shown that when combined with our weld-in subframe connectors, the two together provide a 20% decrease in chassis flex, which is also a 20% increase in rigidity. These are not factory-stamped pieces for show car restorations, they are for performance enhancement.
ART-2425-1 — $249.95/set

Available individually: ART-24-1 is a rear torque box and ART-25-1 is a front torque box. $69.95 individually.

He claims he will sell them for $65 each, where is the big savings?

[colrmustang]

Would you rather me drop all shipping, have them contact a sheet metal shop, and sell them for the price I told you in the message I sent you?

[AutoRust]

I've grown really tired of this; IF you want to have someone apologize, then you talk to them one on one, WHICH IS NOT HARD TO DO SEEING AS HOW MY INFORMATION IS ON HERE. If you want me to stop, then I will since it cuts in your profits. A simple email saying stop is all that is needed. I get tired of everyone who is in this hobby making a killing off of anyone who wants to improve these cars.

You are tired of this ??  Perhaps you might explain yourself a little better? Is this something that happens to you often? Is there a pattern here ?

Let me explain a few things here for you and everyone else to understand.
I could care less if you want to make yourself a set of torque boxes, I could care less if you want to make a few sets, and get your buddies to buy them from you.
Go for it. Go out there, and do the work. Get a car with some on it, develop yourself a pattern or 3, do the test fitting, make them fit right. Good deal, I am happy for you and your buddys.
BUT, if you want to get a set of mine, post pictures up and tell everybody there yours and your gonna undercut my pricing, then you just set the rules. I will play by your rules. This is business. I defend my products vigorously.
I will call you out, in a public forum ( seeing its your choice to go there first) and tell you to admit your stealing my ideas, and trying to hoodwink a few people into buying them from you at a "better" deal.   See my previous post above regarding your "better deal"

You might have noticed my Torque boxes are different then stock appearing ones, and I tell people flat out they are NOT original pieces. When people call asking about them, we typically ask if there doing a "Real Hemi Car". If so, you should call Harms for his factory correct ones. Mine are better the Factory ones, we use a heavier gauge steel, a better design for function, and we sell them as a performance enhancement item.

If you want to do the same thing we do, go ahead. HOWEVER, make sure you go ahead and run your business from a properly zoned location. Make sure you get all your business permits. Make sure you pay all your TAXES on the income, Make sure you follow proper business procedures. Make sure your telephone numbers are listed on all your advertisements so someone can contact you. Make sure you stand behind your products and cheerfully refund money if someone orders then and decides they dont want them. Did I mention paying taxes on your income?? All the taxes, to the state, the IRS, the local governments, and anyone else thats out there looking for it. Most state governments are hurting right now, I am sure they would be glad for you to pay taxes on the income you earned.

We are a good company here at Auto Rust Technicians. We have been in businees for 32 years. We developed products to help people save rusty Mopars. We do it for business, but we also do it for fun. We are car guys. We have been Mopar guys since the days they started building faster cars then anyone else. We went through the good times, and we went through the bad times when you could barely give away a Challenger with a glove box full of money. We are enthusiasts.
We save a lot of Mopars, here in our shop, and by selling kits that help others save old Mopars. We support and advertise in all the Mopar magazines, we pay a ton of taxes every year. We employ hard working guys in our shop that also are enthusiasts and tax payers who work for an American company producing American made products. We support and advertise at Major Mopar events around the country, and travel to them when our advertising budgets allow us to.
We support the sport.

How this might be considered " making a killing off anyone who wants to improve there cars?

Dave

[colrmustang]

So you know, I am copying everything over here so people know what i am saying. I would rather have everyone know what my intentions were, and how they have been greatly exaggerated.

From the 66-67dodgecharger.com forum:

Shall we continue on this forum?

Sure, if you insist. I really couldn't care less where you talk to me since you seem to be so dead set on not leaving me alone since I have already removed everything on the other forum+. If you have read said thread, you by now surely know what my intention was. IF you can't leave well enough alone when someone does what you ask, then why do you insist on harassing them?

NO WHERE have I explicitly said "these are mine, I came up with the design" which is your current argument. I am not going to pass off something that was originally a design of the Chrysler Corporation as mine. According to patent law, items have to be marked with the number of said patent. If you don't believe me, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent

Now, I am going to bluntly tell you since you haven't read in the thread at all; I am not making any money on these, at all, period. The costs of the boxes+labor for me is $59.77, and I then have to pay tax on that. Wonder where I come up with $65 now? Also, I lose money having to run around getting these things, shipping them (I use flat rate, normal person shipping, not business discount) and then there is the whole thing of you accusing me of stealing your design.

I didn't sit here and think, no matter what you assume, that I could make a living at this. It started just with the reinforcements, and someone asked me if I could make copies of the boxes (I suggest reading each and every post, not skipping around in there). I do this because I figure people could use some help in this kind of economy, but apparently people don't.

What else do you want? A sign saying your design is good? What about the fact that I am using your design ON an original Hemi car BECAUSE of it? Scott doesn't even carry the boxes, he will refer you to another company that charges $250 for them. All in all, your harassing me now on two forums for what purpose?

Original Thread:

http://66-67charger.com/forum/index.php?topic=8102.0

[colrmustang]

One other thing I have noticed RE-reading the original thread; why is it that several comments have been changed? Do you think that the last edit time is not displayed? Do you want me to post every message that has been sent back and forth, because I keep my messages. Or, I can screenshot and post up, which do you perfer?









Edit: Added pics since someone mentioned they can't see

[Big Sugar]

GUILTY ,......Yes I apologize to Dave at ART and to Robert (Colrmustang) for revising my posts after this all went down.
Dave , When Robert first expressed interest in possibly producing a few extra sets of Torque boxes for interested members on the 1st gen forum for a non profit price I supported his idea and agreed to purchase a set or two from him, I did not think of the other side of the story and for that I apologize.
  When I saw what was happening here on DC.com with regards to your side of the events, I quickly realized that some of my posts on 66-67charger site were not in the best taste, so I revised them. I did it out of respect for You and A.R.T. I realized that I was out of line for supporting the idea.
It was simply One Mopar enthusiast attempting to help another and it went too far.

My sincere apologies Dave
And too Robert as well for revising my posts behind his back.


Ron

[AutoRust]

Big Sugar,
No worries, And a big thanks for the apoligy. I had no issues with yourself, just the guy trying to step on me. 
If you need a good price on a set of Torque Boxes, ANYONE for that matter, give me a call. I can be persuaded to offer a deal, and always give 10% off the top on a set. Not a bad deal for the help it gives these cars.

What frosted me was the pictures that were posted of MY product, with someone announcing loudly and proudly they were going to copy them and undercut my prices and pass out a big savings to everyone that joined in with him.            
Thats just wrong in to many ways to discuss. So we will just leave it at that.   
I didnt mean to Hijack this thread and go on a tear.
You have to understand, its our livelihood, we do this to eat. I defend our company vigourously (perhaps a bit overwhelmingly at times).
My company has earned the respect of the Mopar community, and we value that. We charge a fair price for our products, and we reinvest the profits we earn back into the company.We dont go buy big boats or race cars, we try to develop new products to help keep the sport growing Our first set of Torque Boxes was for the 66-70 B-body. Then we developed ones for the E-body, Then for the 67-76 A-body. Then for the 71-72 B-body, then the 62-66 A-body, them the 62-65 B-body, the the 76-80 F-body.
We keep trying to help.  We  try to give back to the Mopar community whenever possible by supporting the Magazines and the Events at Carlisle and the Nats in Ohio. We appreciate the customers that have supported us, and we hope to earn there business again in the future. 

Thanks for the understanding.

Dave

[colrmustang]

Dave,

For what my word is worth, probably very little to you, what I did was not meant to step on toes or be made more than ONCE. Hindsight is 20/20 they say, and for what its worth, this whole thing is the stupidest waste of both our times. In the ultimate end, you didn't lose ANY business, trust me. As for me, just another reason to never help another person; getting stabbed in the back by people you are trying to help (not referencing Ron in any way shape or form) doesn't bring about good feelings.

[AutoRust]

colrmustang, I am sure if I felt up to it, I could go sentence vs. sentence with you, refute your point, make counterpoints, and basically win every part of your arguments.
Frankly I have no interest in that at this time.

Please dont copy other peoples products. And dont jump into a forum where they are an active member, and tell everyone your gonna sell some and give them a "better" deal them what I do.  That just pisses people off big time, which "might" be why the response to your "offer" was less then favorable.
I might strongly suggest some type of action is needed by yourself on 66-67 charger forum also

Dave

[A383Wing]

You 2 guys need to get a room by yourselves...... 

[troy.70R/T]

This question is for anyone who is welding in the U.S. Car Tool Or the XV Motor Sports frame connectors. How far apart are you spacing your welds along the floor pan?

[Steve P.]

I believe they are welding these completely. All done by stitching, but full weld when done.

[jb666]

colrmustang, I am sure if I felt up to it, I could go sentence vs. sentence with you, refute your point, make counterpoints, and basically win every part of your arguments.
Frankly I have no interest in that at this time.

Please dont copy other peoples products. And dont jump into a forum where they are an active member, and tell everyone your gonna sell some and give them a "better" deal them what I do.  That just pisses people off big time, which "might" be why the response to your "offer" was less then favorable.
I might strongly suggest some type of action is needed by yourself on 66-67 charger forum also

Dave

Dave, you have my support, and my business. The fact that you are an honest local business man who actually CARES about our hobbies shows me a lot. We'll be talking very soon, but I look forward to seeing you this summer 

[FLG]

colrmustang, I am sure if I felt up to it, I could go sentence vs. sentence with you, refute your point, make counterpoints, and basically win every part of your arguments.
Frankly I have no interest in that at this time.

Please dont copy other peoples products. And dont jump into a forum where they are an active member, and tell everyone your gonna sell some and give them a "better" deal them what I do.  That just pisses people off big time, which "might" be why the response to your "offer" was less then favorable.
I might strongly suggest some type of action is needed by yourself on 66-67 charger forum also

Dave

Dave, you have my support, and my business. The fact that you are an honest local business man who actually CARES about our hobbies shows me a lot. We'll be talking very soon, but I look forward to seeing you this summer 

I second that. I got rear rails from Dave. He and the rest of the guys at auto rust are great.

[troy.70R/T]

Thanks Steve. I guess now would be a good time for me to buy the auto darkening welding helmet that i have always wanted.

[Steve P.]

Thanks Steve. I guess now would be a good time for me to buy the auto darkening welding helmet that i have always wanted.

Yeah man... I LOVE mine.... Large window. Under $200.00 @ Central Tractor Supply.  The best thing for me since I don't get to weld very often. It is one less thing to mess with you when getting use to welding again.. 

[troy.70R/T]

I have been looking for a helmet with a big window but all I can find is the small window. What brand is your big window helmet. Also is yours adjustable for the darkness?

[Steve P.]

It's a Hobart and is adjustable. It's a few years old now and last I used it was still working perfectly. Only I screwed up. It is a smaller window. I use to use a MILLER helmet at Florida Power. I must have had that in mind. Those were BIG BUCK helmets. I do like mine though. No troubles at all and I don't weld every day. Meaning it is quick to get use to and very comfortable and light on your head.

I think I last saw them for around $100.00 there, but didn't really spend the time to see if it was the same one... My buddy bought one there last year for around $80.00 and uses his all the time without complaints... Who knows in today's market though. 

[troy.70R/T]

Thanks Steve I will do some checking.

[Steve P.]

Glad to help. Something I meant to stress is the weight. My old helmet was quite a bit heavier than this one and it makes a monster difference. Lighter is WAY better....  Very little fatigue in comparison to the old one.

[troy.70R/T]

Well I finally gor a welder and helmet and fram connectors and am ready to weld them in. I see some pics but was wondering if anyone could give me some measurements on where to weld them in at.  Obviously the one that slips over the frame in the rear is a no brainer but I need a measurement on where the front should be welded on. I see in on pic that there is a place cut out for I assume the fuel line???. I bought U.S. Car tool connectors. It also looks like in one pic that the front part of the frame connector actually has a samll tab that over laps the bottom of the frame rail. Mine do not have this. extra little tab. Just wondering if maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. Thanks for any help guys. Troy 

[Steve P.]

I have NOT seen the US Car Tool connectors up close, but I think the hole is for your e-brake cable. I'm not terribly familiar with Charger frames, but for the Coronet some companies have the hole pre-cut. I have seen others that are just drilled and not elongated.    Didn't you get any instructions with the rails? 

[mopar_nut_440_6]

I purchased and installed the US cartool connectors. I installed the rear first and then measured from the rocker over to the frame rail at the front and rear to set up square and double checked with a square off of the trans x-member. The tabs goes over the x- member. My connectors had no holes for the e brake cable but I added a tube through the connector.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,54980.20.html

[troy.70R/T]

Well I am pretty sure they Are US Car Tool but might be auto rust. Any way they didn't come with any instructions. there are no holes drilled anywhere on them and nothing cut out for the brake cable either. They also don't have that tab on them. How far over are your from your rocker panel.?

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Well I am pretty sure they Are US Car Tool but might be auto rust. Any way they didn't come with any instructions. there are no holes drilled anywhere on them and nothing cut out for the brake cable either. They also don't have that tab on them. How far over are your from your rocker panel.?

I would recommend just installing the rear section over your frame rail and then move to the transmisson x-member and square up the rail there. You can also take a measurement from the side of your rocker over to the connector at the front and rear to make sure they are square.

[troy.70R/T]

Thats what I was wondering. I just want to make sure that the car was designed so that the rocker would be square all the way along it. I guess what I am trying to say is I hope there is not an angle to the rocker panel.

[troy.70R/T]

Can anyone please give me some measurements??? I would like to know the measurement from the edge of the new frame rails to the edge of the torsion bar hub that it welded to the cross member. My inner rockers are a little bent up from installing the new outer rockers and I just want to make sure I get them in the right spot and not off a 1/4 inch. I could really use this informatin ASAP as I have this whole week off to work on my car. Thanks Troy

[Blakcharger440]

In one of the mopar mags XVmotorsports say that the MP style connectors actually stabilize the frame better than the other car tool type,but for the sake of looks the car tool type look more "factory". 


I think either way you go you are doing a worthwhile upgrade and making the frame more rigid. 

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Can anyone please give me some measurements??? I would like to know the measurement from the edge of the new frame rails to the edge of the torsion bar hub that it welded to the cross member. My inner rockers are a little bent up from installing the new outer rockers and I just want to make sure I get them in the right spot and not off a 1/4 inch. I could really use this informatin ASAP as I have this whole week off to work on my car. Thanks Troy

Hi Troy,

Sorry I just saw your post this morning and am working for 12 hours. I will get you a measurement later.

No offense, but I think you are worrying too much about this measurement.

Not trying to be a broken record but if you slide the rear of the frame connectors over the rear frame section and support it here,
then move to the front and lift it up into place,
take a square and square the connector to the transmission cross member,
then measure side to side and see how close you are before welding, you should find that they are very close and can make adjustments from there.

Let me know how it goes and good luck. It takes a bit of work to get them fitted but once that is done the rest goes pretty well and the finished product is very nice.

[troy.70R/T]

Thanks Mopar Nut I would appreciate it. I have used the square and then measured and am off from the front to the back by about 7/16 of an inch. And like I said my rockers are a little bit tweeked in places from when the rockers were put on. The square fits perfect but I just want to make 100 percent sure I have these in the right location. waiting a little longer now is much better than having regrets later. I probably am being to picky but my car is not on a rotisery so Ireallt don't want to have to start all over. That would be an even bigger pain. Thanks again I appreciate  the help.

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Thanks Mopar Nut I would appreciate it. I have used the square and then measured and am off from the front to the back by about 7/16 of an inch. And like I said my rockers are a little bit tweeked in places from when the rockers were put on. The square fits perfect but I just want to make 100 percent sure I have these in the right location. waiting a little longer now is much better than having regrets later. I probably am being to picky but my car is not on a rotisery so Ireallt don't want to have to start all over. That would be an even bigger pain. Thanks again I appreciate  the help.

Sorry for the wait. I was called away due to work. I just measured this morning and my connectors are 8-1/4 inches at the front from the outside edge of the rocker to the connector. I hope this helps. The rear is about the same but a bit more difficult to measure as it slips over the rear section and I had to do some frame repairs in that area on each side.

Cheers,

James

[troy.70R/T]

Reply thanks James I just finally went with the square and measuring many times. I really should have just called U.S. car tool and asked them but didn't think of that until I was all done. Thanks for the measurements though,Troy.