Education and some quotations

[aifilaw]

Ok, I'm by no means a paint and body man. But I have the opportunity to get a good deal for some good work. There's a guy who works at a clasic car restoration place who does a lot of side work, has is own shop out of his home down the street from me, and does a real nice job with body work and paint and says he'll give me a great deal to do the '72.

So I need to ask the experts here to make sure I'm going the right route.
The car is originally a B5 blue metallic hard-top. the paint is original.
He's talking about doing a full strip down, 2 coats of prime, 3 clear prime, 3 paint, and then 3 clear if I remember from the conversation, and there's talk about 2-stage et cetera et cetera...

Someone bring me up to speed on what a few of these mean, if that's the correct route, and about how much it would cost from a shop to do this work, and how much someone might do it on the side for?

Bear in mind, this isn't a show car, I never want it to be. This is a daily driver or weekend warrior, its going to get chipped from the road and banged by car doors, I want it to look nice, but barring accidents I want it to look nice for 20 years down the road.

Recommendations, thoughts of brands or types or qualities of different paints, primers, and clear coats? Any help is appreciated

[restoman]

Well, as a shop owner who spends a great deal of time fixing other shops and backyard operations work, I can tell you what you absolutely must do to protect yourself - get everything in writing and make sure you know exactly what you want and what you are getting, and make sure the guy doing the work knows what he is supposed to do.
Get everything in writng.
Check the progress as often as you can.
Get everything in writing.
Do your homework to know at least a little of what is required to do the work.
Get everything in writing.
Get a few references of the guy's previous work - talk to previous customers if possible.
Get everything in writing.
Take pictures of the progress if possible.
Get evrything in writing.
Don't assume the guy will do work that he hasn't specifically agreed to - if he didn't say it, or write it down, odds are he's not going to do it.
Get everything in writing.
If you see something you don't like, or aren't sure of, ask, ask, ask.
Get everything in writing.
Make sure the there is insurance on the car - backyard guys usually don't carry any and if you car is damaged...
And last, but not least - get everything in writing. Too often, I've seen fellas take thier cars to shops - backyard shops as well as legit outfits - and be dissatisfied with something. Without a specific written agreement, most times their is no recourse if something goes wrong.

I would be a little wary of someone who takes a paycheque for daytime work, while, in effect, robbing his employer of the chance to get the work for the shop by doing it himself at night. Be careful.

[hemihead]

Never heard of clear prime

[aifilaw]

Well, as a shop owner who spends a great deal of time fixing other shops and backyard operations work, I can tell you what you absolutely must do to protect yourself - get everything in writing and make sure you know exactly what you want and what you are getting, and make sure the guy doing the work knows what he is supposed to do.
Get everything in writng.
Check the progress as often as you can.
Get everything in writing.
Do your homework to know at least a little of what is required to do the work.
Get everything in writing.
Get a few references of the guy's previous work - talk to previous customers if possible.
Get everything in writing.
Take pictures of the progress if possible.
Get evrything in writing.
Don't assume the guy will do work that he hasn't specifically agreed to - if he didn't say it, or write it down, odds are he's not going to do it.
Get everything in writing.
If you see something you don't like, or aren't sure of, ask, ask, ask.
Get everything in writing.
Make sure the there is insurance on the car - backyard guys usually don't carry any and if you car is damaged...
And last, but not least - get everything in writing. Too often, I've seen fellas take thier cars to shops - backyard shops as well as legit outfits - and be dissatisfied with something. Without a specific written agreement, most times their is no recourse if something goes wrong.

I would be a little wary of someone who takes a paycheque for daytime work, while, in effect, robbing his employer of the chance to get the work for the shop by doing it himself at night. Be careful.

I'll answer the "get everything in writing" ones very easily, I plan on drafting a legal document, release, and contract from start to finish, I'm no stranger to doing business in this manner, and I've been burned enough to be wary. But I also don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Either way, as a shop owner, lets hear some responses. How would you do the job?

Do your homework to know at least a little of what is required to do the work.    <--- is what I'm attempting to do in this thread

[restoman]

There are sooooo many steps involved it's almost impossible to go over them all without boring someone to death. I'll cover the highlights, but there will be many gaps in this explanation.
'K, so it gets stripped to bare steel. That's the best way to do it. Then, depending on the body guy's habits and preferences, it either gets a coat of epoxy primer to seal the steel from moisture and surface contaminants with any repair work done on top of the epoxy, or the actual body work begins directly to the bare metal. Either way is perfectly fine. I've done it both ways with excellent results. The epoxy is somewhat glossy and is easier to see panel imperfections that might be missed in bare steel. Of course, any rust has to be blasted, holes welded up, panels replaced, ... All the normal body repair stuff.
What I prefer to do after the body work is apply several coats of a polyester primer - sometimes known as spray filler or spray bondo. I use Klassen Rust Defender, and like to apply three full wet coats. This gives a very good surface for heavy block sanding - this is the way to get panels straight. It saves lots of labour, is fairly inexpensive to use, has excellent adhesion and rust inhibiting properties, and provides a perfect surface for the next step - urethane primer. Usually, depending on how straight the poly primer leaves the body, I'll apply three coats of high-build urethane primer. Block it out, and re-spray if required. It's easier to touch up the urethane primer than the poly primer because the poly primer is so thick. Final prep should be around 600 grit, some folks like 800 grit on the upper surfaces.
Paint? The sky is the limit. This is where you need to be sure the products the guy uses are all compatible. There are many different brands, types (enamels, acrylics, urethanes, polyester, etc), and qualities. We prefer urethane or polyester base  clear systems, top quality stuff Autocolor, Pro Spray and Glasurit. The way I see it, if you're gonna spend the time and money to do the work, make sure what you use is the best, 'cause it ain't no fun to have to redo something because of product failure. The better produst s are also easier to deal with if there is a problem mid-way thru the job - runs, fisheyes, etc.

The only reason I kept repeating the get everything in writing line is because what you posted - stuff like clear prime, and talk of single stage,etc -led me to believe you may not have been paying attention to what the guy said. Truthfully, not a lot of people do, and I think that's why you hear so many horror stories about bodyshop experiences. Contracts are great, but make sure they cover all the steps and all the materials too. You don't want to find out two years down the road that what was used wasn't what was verbally promised.

[Charger-Bodie]

There are sooooo many steps involved it's almost impossible to go over them all without boring someone to death. I'll cover the highlights, but there will be many gaps in this explanation.
'K, so it gets stripped to bare steel. That's the best way to do it. Then, depending on the body guy's habits and preferences, it either gets a coat of epoxy primer to seal the steel from moisture and surface contaminants with any repair work done on top of the epoxy, or the actual body work begins directly to the bare metal. Either way is perfectly fine. I've done it both ways with excellent results. The epoxy is somewhat glossy and is easier to see panel imperfections that might be missed in bare steel. Of course, any rust has to be blasted, holes welded up, panels replaced, ... All the normal body repair stuff.
What I prefer to do after the body work is apply several coats of a polyester primer - sometimes known as spray filler or spray bondo. I use Klassen Rust Defender, and like to apply three full wet coats. This gives a very good surface for heavy block sanding - this is the way to get panels straight. It saves lots of labour, is fairly inexpensive to use, has excellent adhesion and rust inhibiting properties, and provides a perfect surface for the next step - urethane primer. Usually, depending on how straight the poly primer leaves the body, I'll apply three coats of high-build urethane primer. Block it out, and re-spray if required. It's easier to touch up the urethane primer than the poly primer because the poly primer is so thick. Final prep should be around 600 grit, some folks like 800 grit on the upper surfaces.
Paint? The sky is the limit. This is where you need to be sure the products the guy uses are all compatible. There are many different brands, types (enamels, acrylics, urethanes, polyester, etc), and qualities. We prefer urethane or polyester base  clear systems, top quality stuff Autocolor, Pro Spray and Glasurit. The way I see it, if you're gonna spend the time and money to do the work, make sure what you use is the best, 'cause it ain't no fun to have to redo something because of product failure. The better produst s are also easier to deal with if there is a problem mid-way thru the job - runs, fisheyes, etc.

The only reason I kept repeating the get everything in writing line is because what you posted - stuff like clear prime, and talk of single stage,etc -led me to believe you may not have been paying attention to what the guy said. Truthfully, not a lot of people do, and I think that's why you hear so many horror stories about bodyshop experiences. Contracts are great, but make sure they cover all the steps and all the materials too. You don't want to find out two years down the road that what was used wasn't what was verbally promised.

....and there ya have it!! 

[aifilaw]

Excellent start, I enjoy being bored to death with details. The reason I don't remember things correctly is because they aren't written down yet, and there's far too many things to remember thus far, so conversations that happened hours ago lack proper detail unfortunately.

I vaguely recall hearing years ago about special steps one had to take with metallic paint. I'm redoing it to its original B5 Metallic Blue, what does this entail?

After the base, I'm sure you put on a clear coat. How many layers of paint and of clear are standard for the kind of job I'm wanting? What goes on a stock car leaving the assembly line these days in contrast?

[1969chargerrtse]

There are sooooo many steps involved it's almost impossible to go over them all without boring someone to death. I'll cover the highlights, but there will be many gaps in this explanation.
'K, so it gets stripped to bare steel. That's the best way to do it. Then, depending on the body guy's habits and preferences, it either gets a coat of epoxy primer to seal the steel from moisture and surface contaminants with any repair work done on top of the epoxy, or the actual body work begins directly to the bare metal. Either way is perfectly fine. I've done it both ways with excellent results. The epoxy is somewhat glossy and is easier to see panel imperfections that might be missed in bare steel. Of course, any rust has to be blasted, holes welded up, panels replaced, ... All the normal body repair stuff.
What I prefer to do after the body work is apply several coats of a polyester primer - sometimes known as spray filler or spray bondo. I use Klassen Rust Defender, and like to apply three full wet coats. This gives a very good surface for heavy block sanding - this is the way to get panels straight. It saves lots of labour, is fairly inexpensive to use, has excellent adhesion and rust inhibiting properties, and provides a perfect surface for the next step - urethane primer. Usually, depending on how straight the poly primer leaves the body, I'll apply three coats of high-build urethane primer. Block it out, and re-spray if required. It's easier to touch up the urethane primer than the poly primer because the poly primer is so thick. Final prep should be around 600 grit, some folks like 800 grit on the upper surfaces.
Paint? The sky is the limit. This is where you need to be sure the products the guy uses are all compatible. There are many different brands, types (enamels, acrylics, urethanes, polyester, etc), and qualities. We prefer urethane or polyester base  clear systems, top quality stuff Autocolor, Pro Spray and Glasurit. The way I see it, if you're gonna spend the time and money to do the work, make sure what you use is the best, 'cause it ain't no fun to have to redo something because of product failure. The better produst s are also easier to deal with if there is a problem mid-way thru the job - runs, fisheyes, etc.

The only reason I kept repeating the get everything in writing line is because what you posted - stuff like clear prime, and talk of single stage,etc -led me to believe you may not have been paying attention to what the guy said. Truthfully, not a lot of people do, and I think that's why you hear so many horror stories about bodyshop experiences. Contracts are great, but make sure they cover all the steps and all the materials too. You don't want to find out two years down the road that what was used wasn't what was verbally promised.

....and there ya have it!! 

If Brian (1hot68) read all that, and ended up with, "and there ya have it!!" your all set.    Restoman and 1hot68 are pretty smart body guys, great site , ain't it. 

[aifilaw]

There are sooooo many steps involved it's almost impossible to go over them all without boring someone to death. I'll cover the highlights, but there will be many gaps in this explanation.
'K, so it gets stripped to bare steel. That's the best way to do it. Then, depending on the body guy's habits and preferences, it either gets a coat of epoxy primer to seal the steel from moisture and surface contaminants with any repair work done on top of the epoxy, or the actual body work begins directly to the bare metal. Either way is perfectly fine. I've done it both ways with excellent results. The epoxy is somewhat glossy and is easier to see panel imperfections that might be missed in bare steel. Of course, any rust has to be blasted, holes welded up, panels replaced, ... All the normal body repair stuff.
What I prefer to do after the body work is apply several coats of a polyester primer - sometimes known as spray filler or spray bondo. I use Klassen Rust Defender, and like to apply three full wet coats. This gives a very good surface for heavy block sanding - this is the way to get panels straight. It saves lots of labour, is fairly inexpensive to use, has excellent adhesion and rust inhibiting properties, and provides a perfect surface for the next step - urethane primer. Usually, depending on how straight the poly primer leaves the body, I'll apply three coats of high-build urethane primer. Block it out, and re-spray if required. It's easier to touch up the urethane primer than the poly primer because the poly primer is so thick. Final prep should be around 600 grit, some folks like 800 grit on the upper surfaces.
Paint? The sky is the limit. This is where you need to be sure the products the guy uses are all compatible. There are many different brands, types (enamels, acrylics, urethanes, polyester, etc), and qualities. We prefer urethane or polyester base  clear systems, top quality stuff Autocolor, Pro Spray and Glasurit. The way I see it, if you're gonna spend the time and money to do the work, make sure what you use is the best, 'cause it ain't no fun to have to redo something because of product failure. The better produst s are also easier to deal with if there is a problem mid-way thru the job - runs, fisheyes, etc.

The only reason I kept repeating the get everything in writing line is because what you posted - stuff like clear prime, and talk of single stage,etc -led me to believe you may not have been paying attention to what the guy said. Truthfully, not a lot of people do, and I think that's why you hear so many horror stories about bodyshop experiences. Contracts are great, but make sure they cover all the steps and all the materials too. You don't want to find out two years down the road that what was used wasn't what was verbally promised.

....and there ya have it!! 

If Brian (1hot68) read all that, and ended up with, "and there ya have it!!" your all set.    Restoman and 1hot68 are pretty smart body guys, great site , ain't it. 

I'm still in need of quite a few questions answered, but its definitely a good start. Believe me I'm no stranger to the site, been with d-c since chryco joined and had around 3,000 posts to the performance and engine area on the old board... but time and family have swooped down on me. This is my first stop by the paint and body section in all these years though. Never had any use for making them look good, only running strong. 

[restoman]

The only special care to be taken when spraying metallic is the very final sanding. Sometimes metallic will "stand up" in sand scratches - makes it look like the paint is cracking. But if your final sanding grit is 800 or so, you should have no problems. There are a few tricks of the trade known to painters to pretty much gaurantee no stand up, hopefully your guy is hip to them. Most metallics respond well to both medium-wet final coats, or for better metallic control, dry spraying at different air pressures and different speeds. You're really at the mercy of your painter here. Seeing some of his past jobs will let you know if he can paint or not. Not everyone can, and painting is an art in itself.
Bases need clearcoat, yes. In a base /clear system, also known as two stage, the base provides the colour and the clear provides the shine. Modern clears are urethanes for the most part, and have excellent UV protection and gloss. UV stabillity simply means colour fading is greatly reduced, and peeling and cracking should be things of the past. Of course, it all depends on wether or not the painter does his stuff the right way without short-cutting anything. Unfortunately, peeling and fading doesn't happen right away, it may be several years down the road before anything shows up, and then the guy, if you can find him, may simply say it's not his fault the paint didn't hold up. This is where talking to previous customers may pay big dividends.
I could go on and on - I love to talk about what I do and show off a little : - but body and paint work is one of those "you get it right or you don't" kinda deals. There are so many things that can go wrong, it's difficult to even give simple explanations of what to look for. For bodymen and painters, its like riding a bike - we do these things so often without even thinking of them,and there are so many steps to be taken,  when it comes to explaining what needs to be done, we usually drone on endlessly.
That's why its vitally important to check into the guy's previous work, talk to his customers, and keep checking the progress when hes doing your stuff. And again, get it in writing, so if something goes awry, you'll have an avenue for recourse.
I hope I'm not sounding sour on a backyard guy doing some work, that is not my intent.
Keep asking questions, and if I can help in any way, I'll type away.

[restoman]

The factory finishes are much different from anything available from the aftermarket. Factories don't spend near the time refinishing  that bodyshops do, they need a one shot kind of finish. Most OE paints are usually several undercoats (primer/sealers that ensure adhesion and rust protection), one or two coats of colour (VERY high solids material) and usually one full wet coat of clear. I believe the paints are heat activated before they cure. Factory finishes are nowadays applied robotically and are very thin. They can last a very long time with minimal care which is amazing considering how thin they really are.
Aftermarket paint jobs usually consist of several primer coats, several coats of base to achieve hiding (opacity) and two to three coats of clear. MS (medium solids) usually need 3 coats, HS (high solids) can get away with 2 coats.
If I remember the last paint course correctly, OE paint is around 1.5 to 2. mils including undercoats, and aftermarket paint go as much as 3 to 5 mils including primers, plus the the thickness of the OE finish underneath. This extra millage is why aftermarket paints chip easier, and is the prime reason we like to strip to bare steel. Too much thickness in the finish coat and a simple rock chip ends up looking like a crater.

[aifilaw]

While I'm dreaming up a few more.

I have two moderate dents (looks like someone dropped a basebal on it from 20 feet up), and 3 or 4 really tiny dents, there is no rust with the exception of some surface rust on the bottom pan of the trunk, he says there will be no metal replacement, just sand off and protect from future.
Given this, I assumed a reputable paint/body shop would charge me about $5,000 all said and done for the job I'm looking at having done here. Am I far off base?

Second, what are the materials cost, between the primers, rust preventatives, clears, and bases, that's about 7-10 coats, probably 3-4 cans of paint at an average cost of what? $400 a can? Just trying to get a feel for what the real numbers are these guys are going on. I realize the bulk of the cost is paying for the expertise and the skill of the painter, I realize its an art form, probably more so than any other aspect of an automobile. So that's where the real expense goes.

[restoman]

Without seeing your car, my shop would be somewhere between $5 to $8 k for what you describe. Could be more - a bodyman might see stuff an owner never would. That works out to around 70 to 120 hours, start to finish. Shop supplies and paint materials can easily hit $1500 to $2000 for a complete strip and paint job.

[hemi-hampton]

To Strip this Firebird to bare metal due to Laquer Checking/cracking & no major body work & paint Plum Crazy Purple (fc7) & just a daily driver, no show car was $7,000 & figured 120 hours. Not sure of Materials cost but used Dupont & could have been around $2,000 possibly. LEON.

[Mike DC]

 

   All that professional money & effort into the body, and he still had a '79 Firebird when it was finished.

   

[hemi-hampton]

I think it was a 81 & owned by a She. Since I changed the color had to paint under hood, trunk, jambs, ect, ect. LEON.

[TUFCAT]

I'm not busting your balls ---- (it just bothers me) that the front fascia (beak) and front fender vents weren't removed before painting.  Maybe the customer wouldn't pay the extra time?

[hemi-hampton]

TUFFCAT, After spending more then a day doing free extra work fixing hood not included in estimate, like regluing entire under hood bracing due to it totally seperating from top skin, this resulted in entire hood haveing to be Bondoed end to end top to bottom to get straight. Then I had much more then the 120 hours into it then I was getting paid so I lost money. In a nutshell time & money ran out. Bumpers did get stripped to bare rubber using bumper stipper, them primed seperate with SEM's Flexible bumper Primer, All very time consuming & more then most would do. Also note this was a Quicky Earl Scheib/Maaco job, The kind I do not like to do. I'd prefer to spend 2,000 hours on a car for a year at $100,000 so you get what you pay for. Also, I've taken them scoops off before & a pain in the ass, If I remember right only way to get to the Nuts on back are with the Fenders removed, I all ready removed, doors, trunk & hood, was not going to spend all day removing fenders on low budget job just to get scoops off. With $2,000 in materials car was done for $5,000. If she wanted to give me $10,000 then I would have removed bumpers, fenders & did a better job. When you bring me your car strip it all down for me to save yourself some money. LEON.

[hemi-hampton]

TUFFCAT $40 a hour X 120 hours = $4,800.00. Which means 3 weeks. I've done to many cars in past where customer pays for 3 weeks & you spend 4-6 weeks on it & lose money big time. This is why I charge hourly on my Mopar Resto's, I did not quote the price on Firebird, Incompetant boss did. LEON.

[hemi-hampton]

TUFFCAT, Here's some better work for $50,000+ . enjoy, LEON.

[hemi-hampton]

some more.

[hemi-hampton]

more

[hemi-hampton]

more

[hemi-hampton]

I got more pics but it wont let me post anymore? Must be past my Quota? LEON.

[TUFCAT]

I totally agree, and respect the job all you guys do.  Most people have no idea of the time involved - nor do they want to pay for it. TRUST ME when I tell you that I've known many people who bragged about their 3500-4000 paint jobs, and when you saw their cars - you either died laughing - or shit your pants because it was so bad.    Paint is one of those areas "where you get what you pay for" - its just that simple....so you CAN'T BE.... "fussy and cheap". If you're FUSSY ....you better expect to pay the piper. 

On another note, I'm sorry to hear that you lost money on that job. I don't want to get you more pissed off......but it's a shame that in your business YOU lose money - not the owner.  You should be paid for your work regardless. If the boss made a mistake, you shouldn't be penalized ---THEN have to step in and fix it.

Its just the nature of the business I guess.    Rant off.  TUF