Cross drilled rotors for Mopar Action disc brake swap

[bull]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-1978-Dodge-Charger-Mopar-Cross-Drilled-Rotors_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33564QQitemZ8003661136QQrdZ1

I haven't had a chance to look into this much yet but it appears these rotors are the same ones typically used in the early '70s A-body spindle/late '70s B-body rotor disc brake upgrade detailed by the Mopar Action tech article. As far as I can tell they are the stock rotors that have been cross drilled by the company selling them. Just an FYI.

[phat69charger]

Good find Bull, it makes sense too make the rotors fit the cars that come standard with disc brakes that you can find or get the parts for, and that most older body car owners are upgrading to, I did the upgrade using parts from a 73, so I guess I could buy the ones that they sell for $150.00 shipped: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-1974-Barracuda-Challenger-Charger-Drill-Rotors_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33564QQitemZ7966412000

I think that all of the companies that charge you extra for the the Cross drilled rotor kits will have to lower there prices once the word gets out that you can buy just the cross drilled rotors for the factory brake setup that you may already have pieced together yourself.

[Silver R/T]

theres no use for cross drilled rotors, theyre junk. if you want good rotor get some brembo blanks. Cross drilled/slotted will just damage your brake pads and eat them up fast and reducing brake surface contact resulting in poor brake performance

[phat69charger]

Well I wouldn't say there're junk, I've had a few mopars and I think it's all about your point of reference of good and worst, drum brakes that were on some of the mopars I had would heat up and the car didn't stop as fast as it would when the brakes were not hot, so if you never had a charger with drum brakes you wouldn't say that disc brakes that have cross drilled rotors is junk compared to front drum brakes on a charger, I've had four 69 chargers before this one i'm on now, two 67 GTX's, a 67 Coronet and a 68 Satalite, and these cars are not performance cars so I don't think you would be driving them in a way that would wear brakes out fast, even if these rotors are not top of the line Bembo Rotors who cares, regular replacement rotors are about the same price and brake pads don't cost that much, I've also had in the past 20 years eight Porsche 911's and one 930 Porsche Turbo car that ran 11.32 in the 1/4 Mi, now there considered performance cars they stop like you wouldn't believe, so my point of reference of good and worst for brakes maybe a little more than some.

I think that crossed drilled rotor are real effective for what they do if they were not, they would not offer them as a option with brake kits.

[Troy]

I believe the cross drilled rotors are overkill for the street and do tend to wear a bit quicker. However, buying anything with the name Brembo on it is not cost effective at all - even if they make some excellent brakes. The regular, non drilled rotors are just fine and way cheaper (which I think was the point of the thread but some people just don't get it). As always. do some research and try to ignore people with no clue...

Troy

[Steve P.]

Drilled are more in line with rallye cars and roundy rounders.. On and off the brakes over and over.. Those guys need to get through a race that takes a few hours and then they toss the pads for new ones anyway..  Drilled also looks good on points cars to some judges..

[Silver R/T]

Drilled are more in line with rallye cars and roundy rounders.. On and off the brakes over and over.. Those guys need to get through a race that takes a few hours and then they toss the pads for new ones anyway.. Drilled also looks good on points cars to some judges..

exactly theyre "fo sho dawg"

[bull]

I'm not a big cross drilled rotor fan, I just thought I throw it out there for those who might be of the opinion that they are superior to regular rotors. I've heard that drilled and slotted rotors are very susceptible to warpage but on this thick of piece it may not be much of an issue. I have heard that drilled or slotted (but not both) offers better heat dissipation without too much warpage but I'm probably never going to find this out for myself.

[Silver R/T]

drilled do provide better braking in WET conditions yes

[Silver R/T]

===========
First, lets get some physics. Tell me how a heatsink with less mass will
cool better? You do realize that a brake rotor acts as a large heatsink
to transfer heat from the brake pads to the rotor. The heat generated
from pads has to go somewhere and so it transfers to the rotor and
caliper.

Porsche claims: "Discs are cross-drilled to enhance braking in the wet.
The brakes respond faster because the water vapour pressure that builds
up during braking can be released more easily."
They have said nothing about enhancing normal braking circumstances and
the larger diameter rotors probably make up for the lack of material
present in a smaller cross drilled rotor.

From Wilwood's website:
Quote:

Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear
to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling
diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity.
Slots or grooves in rotor faces are partly a carryover from the days of
asbestos pads. Asbestos and other organic pads were prone to "glazing"
and the slots tended to help "scrape or de-glaze" them. Drilling and
slotting rotors has become popular in street applications for their pure
aesthetic value. Wilwood has a large selection of drilled and slotted
rotors for a wide range of applications



As for the Porsche rotors..

Quote:

1) The holes are cast in giving a dense boundary layer-type crystalline
grain structure around the hole at the microscopic level as opposed to
drilling which cuts holes in the existing grain pattern leaving open
endgrains, etc, just begging for cracks.
2) The holes are only 1/2 the diameter of the holes in most drilled
rotors. This reduces the stress concentration factor due to hole
interaction which is a function (not linear) of hole diameters and the
distance between them.
3) Since the holes are only 1/2 as big they remove only 1/4 as much
surface area and mass from the rotor faces as a larger hole. This does a
couple of things:
It increases effective pad area compared with larger holes. The larger
the pad area the cooler they will run, all else being equal. If the same
amount of heat is generated over a larger surface area it will result in
a lower temperature for both surfaces.
It increases the mass the rotor has to absorb heat with. If the same
amount of heat is put into a rotor with a larger mass, it will result in
a lower temperature.
3) The holes are placed along the vanes, actually cutting into them
giving the vane a "half moon" cut along its width. You can see t]hat
here:   

This does a couple of things:
First, it greatly increases the surface area of the vanes which allows
the entire rotors to run cooler which helps prevent cracks by itself.

Second, it effectively stops cracking on that side of the hole which
makes it very difficult to get "hole to hole" cracks that go all the way
through the face rotor (you'll get tiny surface "spider cracks" on any
rotor, blank included if you look hard enough).

That's why Porsche rotors are the only "crossdrilled" rotors I would
ever consider putting on my car.

BTW, many of the above features are not present in older Porsche brakes.
The above is for "Big Reds" and newer.




This is quite different from the standard drilled rotors you get from
brembo/kvr/powerslot/"insert random ricer parts brand name here" brake
rotors.

Further proof of the uselessness of cross drilled rotors are found here:
http://www.teamscr.com/rotors.htm



Quote:

Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really
doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the 40ââ,¬â,,¢s
and 50ââ,¬â,,¢s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first ââ,¬Ëœdrilledââ,¬â,,¢ because early
brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures ââ,¬â€œ
a process known as ââ,¬Ëœgassing outââ,¬â,,¢. These gasses then formed a thin layer
between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and

effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were
implemented to give the gasses ââ,¬Ëœsomewhere to goââ,¬â,,¢. It was an effective
solution, but todayââ,¬â,,¢s friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing
out phenomenon as the early pads.

For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature
than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief they donââ,¬â,,¢t lower
temperatures (in fact, by removing weight from the rotor, the
temperatures can actually increase a little), they create stress risers
allowing the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads ââ,¬â€œ sort
of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. (Want more
evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes
in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.)

The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors
are so oversized (look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula
car) that the rotors are drilled like Swiss cheese. While the issues of
stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to
reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember ââ,¬â€œ
nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors,
they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life ââ,¬â€œ
at the expense of higher weight. Itââ,¬â,,¢s all about trade-offs.

[Silver R/T]

From Stoptech

Quote:

Which is better, slotted or drilled rotors?
StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance
applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away
debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite"
characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of
benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many
customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and
occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe
applications, we recommend slotted rotors.
That almost sounds like an excuse to use cross drilled rotors, and for
your street car which probably is never driven on the track, the drilled
rotors are fine, but as Stoptech states, they will crack and are not
good for severe applications.

From Baer:

Quote:

"What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and
Zinc-Washing my rotors?

In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing
purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created
when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads...However, with
todayââ,¬â,,¢s race pad technology, ââ,¬Ëœoutgassingââ,¬â,,¢ is no longer much of a
concern...Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use.
Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baerââ,¬â,,¢s
offerings."




Then from Grassroots Motorsports:
Quote:

"Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really
doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the '40s
and 50s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake
pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a
process known as "gassing out." ...It was an effective solution, but
today's friction materials do not exhibit the some gassing out
phenomenon as the early pads. Contrary to popular belief, they don't
lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they
can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes
create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a
mess of brake pads--sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at
every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think
that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams
would be doing it...Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a
consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the
brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during
high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there
may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of
the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off
appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor
lately?)
And then, let's check out what was said on the aforementioned Altima
thread (Long thread at altimas.net that was deleted by that server. it
is hosted http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html)


Quote:

Here is how it works. The friction between the pad and rotor is
what causes you to stop. This friction converts your forward energy into
heat (remember Einstein: Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it is
converted). Now that heat is a bad thing. Yes it is bad for the rotors
but it is a lot worse for the pads. A warped rotor will still stop the
car - it will just feel like shat. Overheated pads however WILL NOT stop
the car. It is here where the rotors secondary responsibility comes in.
Its job now is to DISSIPATE the heat away from the pads and DISPERSE it
through itself. Notice that DISSIPATE and DISPERSE are interchangeable?
Once the heat is removed from the pad/surface area it is then removed.
Notice where the removal falls on the list of duties? That's right -
number 3. Here is the list again. Memorize it because I will be using it
a lot in this post:

#1 Maintains a coefficient of friction with the pad to slow the forward
inertia of the vehicle

#2 DISSIPATE the heat

#3 REMOVE the heat from the brake system

Let's look more in-depth at each step now shall we? No? Too bad assclown
we are doing it anyway.

#1 Maintains a coefficient of friction with the pad to slow the
forward inertia of the vehicle:
This one is pretty simple and self-explanatory. The rotor's surface is
where the pads contact and generate friction to slow the vehicle down.
Since it is this friction that causes the conversion of forward
acceleration into deceleration (negative acceleration if you want) you
ideally want as much as possible right? The more friction you have the
better your stopping will be. This is reason #1 why BIGGER brakes are
the best way to improve a vehicle's stopping ability. More surface area
on the pad and the rotor = more friction = better stopping. Does that
make sense Ace? Good. Let's move on.

#2 DISSIPATE The Heat:
Let's assume for a second that the vehicle in question is running with
Hawk (Seiji) (Seiji) (Seiji) Blue pads on it. The brand doesn't really matter but that is what I am using as my example. They have an operating range of 400 degrees to 1100 degrees. Once they exceed that 1100 degree mark they fade from overheating. The pad material gets too soft to work effectively - glazing occurs. This means that a layer of crude glass forms on the surface of the pad. As we all know glass is very smooth and very hard. It doesn't have a very high coefficient of friction. This is bad - especially when I am coming down the back straight at VIR at 125MPH. Lucky for us the rotor has a job to do here as well. The rotor, by way of thermal tranfer DISSIPATES the heat throughout itself. This
DISSIPATION lessens the amount of heat at the contact area because it is
diluted throughout the whole rotor. The bigger the rotor the better here
as well. The more metal it has the more metal the heat can be diluted
into. Make sense? This isn't rocket science here d00d.

#3 REMOVE the heat from the brake system:
Now comes your favorite part of the process. This is what you thought
DISSIPATION was. It is ok. I will allow you to be wrong. This is the
step where the rotor takes the heat it DISSIPATED from the pads and gets
rid of it for good. How does it do this? By radiating it to the surface
- either the faces or inside the veins. It is here where cool air
interacts with the hot metal to cool it off and remove the heat. Once
again there is a reoccuring theme of "the bigger the better" here. The
bigger the rotor, the more surface area it will have which means more
contact with the cooling air surrounding it. Got it? Good.
Now let's look at why cross-drilling is a bad idea.
First - as we have already established, cross-drilling was never done to
aid in cooling. Its purpose was to remove the worn away pad material so
that the surfaces remained clean. As we all know this doesn't have much
of a purpose nowadays.

[Silver R/T]

Next - In terms of cooling: Yes - x-drilling does create more areas for
air to go through but remember - this is step 3 on the list of tasks.
Let's look at how this affects steps 1 and 2. The drilling of the rotor
removes material from the unit. This removal means less surface area for
generating surface friction as well as less material to accept the
DISSIPATED heat that was generated by the friction. Now because of this
I want to optimize step one and 2 since those are the immediate needs.
If it takes longer for the rotor to get rid of the heat it is ok. You
will have a straight at some point where you can rest the brakes and let
your cooling ducts do their job. My PRIMARY concern is making sure that
my car slows down at the end of the straight. This means that the rotor
needs to have as much surface as possible to generate as much friction
as possible and it needs to DISSIPATE the resulting heat AWAY from the
pads as quick as possible so they continue to work. In both cases
x-drilling does nothing to help the cause.

Now let's talk about strength - and how x-drilled rotors lack it. This
one is simple. Explain again just how drilling away material/structure
from a CAST product DOES NOT weaken it? Since you are obviously a man of great knowledge and experience surely you have seen what can happen to a x-drilled rotor on track right? Yes it can happen to a non-drilled rotor as well but the odds are in your favor when pimpin' bling-bling drilled y0! Since you are also an expert on thermodynamics why not explain to the group what happens to a cast iron molecule when it is overheated. I will give you a little hint - the covalence bonds weaken. These bonds are what hold the molecules together boys and girls. You do the math - it adds up to fractures.

So why don't race teams use them if they are so much better?
Consistency? Hmmmm . . . no. I am gonna go with the real reason her
chodeboy. It is because of several factors actually. They are as follows
but in no particular order:
- Less usable surface area for generating friction
- Less material to DISSIPATE the heat away from the pads
- Less reliable and they are a safety risk because of fatigue and stress
resulting from the reduced material

[Steve P.]

So do they come in differant colors??

[Troy]

Somebody save this... Silver actually did research for the very first time to back up something he said! Yay! I'm impressed.

Troy

[Silver R/T]

Somebody save this... Silver actually did research for the very first time to back up something he said! Yay! I'm impressed.

Troy

i actually know stuff what Im talking about.. and I say this

your sister is hot!

I hope you do not have any hard feelings against me as Im gonna be family member soon

[Troy]

I have five sisters but three of them only date complete losers. Neither of the other two are in that picture...

(Uh, read that very carefully before jumping to conclusions...)

Troy

[bull]

I missed something. How did the hotty get invovled?

[Silver R/T]

I missed something. How did the hotty get invovled?

troy denies its one of his sisters cause Im dating her...too many hard feelings I guess

[bull]

I missed something. How did the hotty get invovled?

troy denies its one of his sisters cause Im dating her...too many hard feelings I guess

Oh. That explains it.