Roller cam for 505

[allkiller]

Hi, been reading on here for sometime, Im putting together a 505 /400 Block stroker
4.15, callies crank,  K1 6.760 connecting rods, Ross piston 12.1, Milodon pan and single line system, Ali mains caps,  Indy 440-1 heads and single plane intake. 1050 dominator
727 manual VB, 4.10 Posi rear end.

I want to go roller cam,  its a strip, occasional street driven car. I can get 97 - 99 octane pump gas where i live.
Can anyone give me some advice as the best cam to go for, in this combo.
and also what sort of power this combo might make.
The car is a stock weight  E body, with half cage and frame connectors and new SS springs. Im hoping to get the car into the mid tens second or quicker bracket.
many thanks
And Happy New Year 

[Animal]

Hi Steve , some good guys on here.

[firefighter3931]

Welcome to the website. 

The motor should make descent power but how much depends largely on how well the heads flow. You really need cylinder head flow numbers to pick a good cam. The stall speed will also come into play and influence the duration specs to a large degree. 

You will want some descent rocker arms like Harland Sharp, Jesel or T&D if you expect it to last on the street for any length of time. Big roller cams don't like to spend time in traffic idleing. With that in mind the best course of action is to use a cam that is designed as an endurance grind....this will keep the valvtrain happier because you won't have to run a killer valvespring.

What does the car weigh ? How much stall can you tolerate ?



Ron

[allkiller]

 Hi guys,
Ron, the convertor i have is a 3800 JW but this can change, as i was going to get another if needed depending on engine final spec. but if you need this up front to determine cam spec..... i have only experienced the 3800 stall and thats no problem, in fact its great fun 
The rocker arms are Indy supplied 1.5. also up for change if needed
The 440-1 heads have had some work, but only mild porting...i was going to have them worked by a local specialist to me.
I dont have current flow figures sorry.

The Cuda weight is  3600 lbs  with me.
The car will not be idleing in traffic, i normally drive to the track race, and drive home, and a few car meets locally. probably less than 1000 miles a year

Ideally im looking for a cam that will help this combo make some big power, Thats why i went for the 440-1 heads so there was less of a limiting factor 
Would an endurance cam hurt 1/4 mile potential
Thanks

[firefighter3931]

Hi guys,
Ron, the convertor i have is a 3800 JW but this can change, as i was going to get another if needed depending on engine final spec. but if you need this up front to determine cam spec..... i have only experienced the 3800 stall and thats no problem, in fact its great fun 
The rocker arms are Indy supplied 1.5. also up for change if needed
The 440-1 heads have had some work, but only mild porting...i was going to have them worked by a local specialist to me.
I dont have current flow figures sorry.

The Cuda weight is  3600 lbs  with me.
The car will not be idleing in traffic, i normally drive to the track race, and drive home, and a few car meets locally. probably less than 1000 miles a year

Ideally im looking for a cam that will help this combo make some big power, Thats why i went for the 440-1 heads so there was less of a limiting factor 
Would an endurance cam hurt 1/4 mile potential
Thanks

Looks like a nice combo....at 3600lbs it will fly. That 3800 stall speed will change with a bigger mill in front of it. The big power/torque will flash the converter up much higher. Is that JW a 10in unit ?

The dash 1 heads have a lot of potential and will flow 370cfm + fully ported. I would feel better seeing the final flow numbers before picking a cam for this combo. Are you wanting it to run on pump gas ?


The rockers should be upgraded to a full roller setup....no bushed fulcrum stuff. Harland Sharp or T&D would be my choice.

A mild street roller/endurance grind will give up some power vs a race stick but it will live much better on the street. You can get away with 200lbs on the seat and 500lbs open on the valvesprings. The more agressive rollers need some pretty stiff spring pressures to keep the valves stable which in turn accerates lifter wear and increases valvespring replacement. Even a mild roller will require some routine maintenance depending on miles accumulated over the course of the driving season.


Ron

[Challenger340]

"Occasional street "  ?

How Occasional ?  Teardown schedule ?
Have you thought about a parts cycle out program on a regular basis ?
Are you running the 440-1K rockers, or upgrading for sure ?
97-99 Octane, or 100LL aviation ?

Apologies for the questions, just trying to "nail" this application.
RACE Rollers that make REAL power, the trade-off is durability on the street, like there is none,
and,
up to and including the point where it's not IF, but WHEN, ya got an Oil Pan full 'O broken trunions.

What are you looking for ?  750-800 ?

[allkiller]

 
Ron,
Yes its a 10 " unit, Yes realise with the stroker the Flash would be considerably higher
Pump gas yes on the street, race at the track, as i said we can get 97-99 octane over here and even 102 at some stations
I will get the heads sorted and give you figures, as that seems best
The rockers are the Indy supplied units , no part numbers ? so guess they are bushed fulcrum type, ali on a heavy wall shaft, ALA piston Pin....upgrading isnt a problem to full roller type
the heads originally ran with a Crower 32413,  grind 294R  .....294 in 298 ex, .624 / .627 lift. 
Maintenance not a problem,  But streetable and strip powerful is what i would ideally like....i realise this is a compromise....but the car is not thrashed on the street , no space, too many cars, it cruises to the track, cos it has to 

Bob,
1000 miles a year, probably less.
Teardown depending on mileage and motors performance/ routine checking, constant.

Not sure what you mean by parts cycle,..... is that 2 of everything and rotation/ replacement
97-99 Octane street, race fuel at the track.
Relaibility would be nice on the street, with a set up making the most power for strip use, as i said i would like to get the Cuda into mid 10's,  
700 would be nice 
I was looking at Dart blokes thread, only my car is heavier and i really wanted to go roller cam
not wanting to turn the Car into a total race car, witha  narrow powerband, and unforgiving on the street
The cam mentioned above was used on another car, what is your thoughts on that cam.
thanks Steve

[Challenger340]

Just my opinion here;

"punt" the dominator in favor of a H.P. series 950, and install a 440-2A adaptor(more power), better curves.
28" X 10" ET street W/4.10:1 cogs
Get some lash caps.

I'll dig up a part # tonight, for a Cam we've run, but gonna go find a sheet on it first, before sticking my size 13 in my yap.

Do you have access to a valve Spring Tester ?

That Crower looks good, easy on parts. I'd guess that you'd wanna pull it around 6500 when Mad at it.
Looks similar to the Crane Track Roller Series(old), which were actually very good !

The "trick", if your gonna do the street driving thing, is to pay very close attention to "thermally stabilizing" the engine & valvetrain prior to any rpm whatsoever !
Just because the temperature gauge reads 180 F, doesn't mean squat !

If you are determined to street it, Do THIS;
Start it, let it bump and fart around at the 1100 rpm, or whatever, NO RPM !,
and wait until the gauge gets up.
Then shut it down and let it sit for 20 minutes for the Springs, etc., can "heat soak" . Usually a good time to quickly pop the covers and do a lash check.
Then, after it's "soaked", re-warm and go toodling, setting off the neighbors car alarms.

ps; you'll know when it breaks a Valve Spring, it'll miraculously pick up power. Then it's Time to go looking seriously at the inners.

You got a V/spring # you are using, I may be able to help with that for longevity.

Bob out.

[allkiller]

 Bob
Springs are Crower 68364, and i can get a valve spring tester

Would Shubeck rollers help take the pressure off,  or is it the high spring pressures thats the problem with street driving this ??
Gonna be adding some spray too 200 ish later.
Anything is possible right ?? 

[firefighter3931]

  or is it the high spring pressures thats the problem with street driving this ??
Gonna be adding some spray too 200 ish later.
Anything is possible right ?? 

Steve, your assumption is correct....the agressive roller profiles are spring killers. These types of cams are not designed for extended use at low engine speeds. This was what i was alluding to in the previous post. The rocker arms also take a beating with the big spring pressures and the ICH (Dove) rockers won't last long in a street application. Some guys have reported issues with the Comp chrome moly steel (non rollerized fulcrum) rockers with roller cam spring pressures.

The other wear issue is the needle bearings in the roller lifters. Depending on the cam profile you could be looking at new lifters every season or even less. 

For these reasons, my preference is towards a milder "endurance" profile that is easy on parts and will live reasonably well at low engine speeds.


If you're looking for 700hp, a mild roller with the dash 1 heads (ported) will get you there easily. 



Ron

[allkiller]

Ron
Now we are talkin, 700 street useable would be fine....add a little Gas 

I kmow you need the head flow figures but any idea what cam you are considering ?  The shop refer to the head porting as sportsman porting....so guessing around the 350, 360 mark....... to be confirmed later.


Also have you had any reports on the Shubeck Roller lifters  and spring pressures ?
And of the 3 rockers you mentioned, which would you use....T+D, Jesel or Harland sharp ?

very thought provoking input
Steve

[firefighter3931]

Ron
Now we are talkin, 700 street useable would be fine....add a little Gas 

I kmow you need the head flow figures but any idea what cam you are considering ?  The shop refer to the head porting as sportsman porting....so guessing around the 350, 360 mark....... to be confirmed later.


Also have you had any reports on the Shubeck Roller lifters  and spring pressures ?
And of the 3 rockers you mentioned, which would you use....T+D, Jesel or Harland sharp ?

very thought provoking input
Steve

Steve, a 350 cfm 440-1 head would fit the bill quite nicely....your power goals will be well within reach. 


As far as i know the Schubec lifters are dead in the water....the company folded up last year. There have been some reports of failed flat tappet Schubec lifters with the ceramic pucks coming apart and littering the oil system with debris. I would stay clear 

The Isky red zone roller lifters seem to be a favorite with the roller cam crowd and hold up quite well. 

On the rockers, either T&D or Harland Sharp will serve your needs....Jesel is overkill inmo. I went with the Sharps and like them....very nice parts. My buddy went with the same rockers after he broke 2 crane golds in a 24hr period with his mild street roller cam and is happy with them too. 

On the cam ; i'm thinking the Comp "high tech 420" roller profiles would be an excellent option for this build with a good balance between power and reliability on a street/strip bruiser. 

I'd like Bob to offer his opinion here as he has lots of roller cam experience under his belt and has put together some pretty impressive bullets 



Ron

[allkiller]

 Thanks Ron,
I wuill wait for Bobs input, really appreciate this guys, 
the roller cam and associated hardwear is all new to me....and as you said i dont want a  sump full of parts. 
Unless you think the roller would be overkill and flat tappet could still acheive the same goals ?? 

[Challenger340]

OK, I'm gonna speak from the heart here.
Just my opinions, thats it, thats all.
I ain't trying to start any wars, just what 'I think" from my experiences.

Skip the Mechanical Roller, if you're gonna do any street driving at all.

Mopars ain't Chev's, 'nuff said.

Like I said before in another thread, I'm just finishing off a "pump gas" 540 Cheb right now, Merlin 111 & Brodix BB2 heads, and I'm using a "Street Roller" Mechanical Roller Cam profile, that uses springs with a "street friendly" seat pressure of 154# and high 400's # at lift.
From my experience, and others we've done & dyno'd, we'll top 700 h.p.
"It works" !

Now on to my Mopar experiences.
Mechanical Roller Cams, at least the ones that would be similar to the "street friendly" type spoken of above, (that we use in the Cheb's),

just plain don't work sufficiently well enough, in the Mopars we've done, to justify the added expense, parts cycling, and overall eventual grief that we've encountered for "street/strip" engines.

Our opinion, for ANY street driving at all, is that the Flat Tappet .904" dia. Solids available today, can provide equal or better performance in a Mopar, given the precarious Spring Pressures required to really make the Roller "THAT MUCH" Superior.
Comes back to the Spring Rates.
How much better can a Roller Cam be, That uses 150# seat pressure(street frindly) and lower duration @ .050, over a Flat Tappet Solid using 135# seat and big .050 numbers ?
The answer, in my opinion, is "not very much".

Don't get me wrong here, I've used RADICAL RACE Mechanical Rollers on the street, at anywhere between 200#-300# seat pressures, just because I wouldn't use "steriods", and wanted to stay out front.
Those profiles DO make more power, but they just don't "LIVE".
And with Lower "Semi-Race" Mechanical Roller stuff in the 200# seat range, IMHO, it just doesn't make sufficiently more power over many solids, to justify the costs in $ and reliability for the street.
It does make MORE, just not enough MORE, IMO.

In a "nutshell"
I couldn't find that "68364" Crower Spring. It said discontinued. But I suspect from the Cam grind you have, if it was the matched spring, that it's probably around the 200 plus # seat, and a 500# rate ?
If you're intent on a Roller, that Cam setup, imo, just ain't gonna make enough extra power over "half a dozen" Flat Tappet Profiles, to justify the grief I think you'll experience. But the INDY "kit" rockers will survive with it.

If you're intent on a Roller, The only Rollers really worth running, IMHO, are the BIG ones, with the BIG pressures, and they Don't LIVE on the street.
This Comp # 23-708-9.  DOES makes over 700 H.P. on a very similar combo to yours with INDY's,
The guy drives to & from the track, albeit thermally stabilized, and easy driven, yearly lifter rebuild/replacement, and 300 run INDY rocker cycle out.

I just "cringe".

I'll dig up and post the dyno sheet.
Bob out.

[allkiller]

 Bob, Now thats honest and thats what i want 
 
If a flat tappet is better for my use, then i will go Flat tappet....no problem,
As a newbie to roller cams and there compatability in Mopars, i  thought a roller would be better in my set up, it obviously isnt from what you have said and thats good enough for me.

Lets cut to the chase then....what do you recommend Flat tappet/ springs to make some big numbers from my combo....700+ ??
Cheers Steve

[BrianShaughnessy]

   I'll let somebody else pick you a cam...   I still have to pick one for my own 505 project but I am making a 10.5 compression 3000 miile/year street car.      But I'm still gonna run a solid flat tappet cam like I am in my 440.   

   The feedback reports I've seen on the Howard's on moparts and such have been very good.   See link  http://competitionproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=91718

   

[allkiller]

Thanks Brian
Definately gonna use a flat tappet Now  .....obviously Ron and Bob have gotta plenty of knowledge in building Stout engines, 
I really need a pointer to the best Cam for my combination of parts / heads etc.
Bob/ Ron....dont leave me now 
Cheers Steve

[firefighter3931]

Steve, if you want to go flat tappet the Comp XX or SQ lobes would be my choice. Either of those will be fine with the Indy supplied rockers and not be too hard on the valvetrain. 

The EDM lifters are a must have, inmo 

Lets see what Bob says 


Ron

[allkiller]

 Fantastic, Its getting a bit cheaper....thats a first 

I'll Wait n see what Cam Bob reckons.

[NMike]

what are EDM lifters?





sorry for the newb question

[allkiller]

Howards EDM lifters
They lubricate via oil pressure from a small lazer cut hole in the base to the cam lobe, rather than oil splash lubrication 
check them out.

[Challenger340]

Stay tuned, I'm working on it.

Did you say the heads have some porting ?
What exhaust header primary Diameter ?

You said 12:1 ? How sure on that number ? pretty close ?

You're still gonna need good 60 ft time for mid tens. Best hit hard on the leave, even if it means a mile or so per hour out the backside, worth the lower overall E.T.

Stay tuned.

[firefighter3931]

My pick for a flat tappet stick in this combo ;

From the Comp master lobe library : intake lobe #7266/ exhaust lobe #7267 on a 110* lsa installed on a 106* intake centerline.

302/304 advertised
272/275@.050
187/189@.200
.600/.600 lift@1.5:1 RR
110* lsa


Ron

[allkiller]

 Headers not bought yet was thinking TTI  2" or 2 1/8" what do you think

sportsman porting job should be good for 350 give or take a bit..not finished yet

Compression? 12.1 ross flat tops, 0 deck 40 thou quench 75 cc chambers

this is a 400 block stroker
Staying tooned 

Ron,  thats sort of close to the Crower i have in my 383, in the same car ... with ported 906 heads ....pulls like a train from about 3400

310/318 adv
265/267 @ .50
574/585 lift 1.5 RR
108 lsa

Thanks Steve

[firefighter3931]

Headers not bought yet was thinking TTI  2" or 2 1/8" what do you think

Steve, you will have to go with the 2in TTI's....the  2 1/8 are designed for use with a raised port head (SR/440-1) with a raised block (440) so they will not fit your chassis because you're building a lowdeck stroker. 

Ron,  thats sort of close to the Crower i have in my 383, in the same car ... with ported 906 heads ....pulls like a train from about 3400

310/318 adv
265/267 @ .50
574/585 lift 1.5 RR
108 lsa

Thanks Steve

The Comp flat tappet has more duration, more lift and a wider LSA so it will behave differently. With an efficient cylinder head (ported 440-1) you don't need to overcam like you would on a port limited build using 906's....the heads will do the work. 


Ron

[allkiller]

 Ron,
Thanks again, bit of a learning curve this stroker....the cam you suggest, i looked at on the Comp Cams Master catalog but is that lobe designed for a .875 lifter ?
using a mopar .904 lifter how does it affect it,   ramp speed/ duration ?

Do the MM Lobes work better ?  this was about as near to yours i could get using the .904 lifter lobe...quite a bit more lift though
6589/6590 I/E   271/275 @.50  627/639 lift w 1.5RR

Is this way out ?
steve

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
Thanks again, bit of a learning curve this stroker....the cam you suggest, i looked at on the Comp Cams Master catalog but is that lobe designed for a .875 lifter ?
using a mopar .904 lifter how does it affect it,   ramp speed/ duration ?

Do the MM Lobes work better ?  this was about as near to yours i could get using the .904 lifter lobe...quite a bit more lift though
6589/6590 I/E   271/275 @.50  627/639 lift w 1.5RR

Is this way out ?
steve

The SQ lobes are indeed an "agressive".875 lifter profile and they work fantastic. With a stock block running unbushed lifter bores on the street these are safer. The MM lobes are on the ragged edge and the lifter geometry needs to be spot on or you will wipe the cam. The MM lobes are very very agressive and don't like to be run at low speeds idleing and in traffic. I would use them only in a pure race build with a bushed (lifter bore) block that has had the lifter bores squared up perfectly. 


They will make a little more power but the downside can be quite substantial in the event of a failure. 



Ron

[allkiller]

  Ok the block has squared and bushed lifter bores but Im not gonna risk it then 
Thanks Ron

Bob any specs yet 

[allkiller]

 Bob, you ve left me 

stayin tuned though, any thoughts on Rons choice ?

302/304 advertised
272/275@.050
187/189@.200
.600/.600 lift@1.5:1 RR
110* lsa
installed on 106

[allkiller]

  

[Animal]

 

Sorry to laugh Steve , maybe Bobs gone away for a month.

[allkiller]

Think your right Adam....i ve beeen Macarooned
With only the Bumpstick to go .....im patient though, slowly, slowly, catchy monkey 

[Streetwize]

you didn't mention a stall but assuming it's a 9" with ~42-4500 stall I'd be looking at around a 274/278 @.050 with about .700I/.670E lift, 110 centers in at 106.

I have a comparable Hydraluic roller with a little less net lift in my 517 low deck with the killer CNC 370+ cfm Chapman MW heads and it's a BEAST but it has suprisingly good street manners in a 3700 pound 70 Charger. Won't get to the track until spring but I'm chomping at the bitt to get her there.

[allkiller]

Mr Wise...its a 10" JW 3800 stall...will be more behind the stroker though

Is the cam you mentioned flat tappet ?? as ive been instructed thats the way for a occasional street duty car.
Its considerable more lift than Ron suggested
Thanks Steve 

[Streetwize]

You said a roller, no?

I'm assuming a 1.6 set of rockers, wouldn't make much sense to run a big flowing head with 1.5 rockers. So at .700 that would be a lobe of around .438 or about .657 with a 1.5 rocker.

You generally want about .050 more lift than your target flow point in the head but it's less critical with a roller lobe.

You said mostly track, occasional street so the choice is a little more aggressive.

[allkiller]

 Flat tappet is what im going for.

My rockers are 1.5 Indy rockers.

Are you looking at roller cams ? Im not going that route now.
what do you suggest flat tappet..with the set up
This motor is all new to me, compared to my little 383 and old school tried and tested methods
thanks

[allkiller]

 Still waiting for that Bumpstick recommendation Guys
Ive been patient 

[firefighter3931]

Still waiting for that Bumpstick recommendation Guys
Ive been patient 

I would use the SQ custom cam from page 1 of this thread. 



Ron