This just makes me mad (tag fraud/rebody rant)

[Ghoste]

I think there are a few fakes of those floating around too.  I'm not sure the moral is to stay away from "numbers matching" so much as to be wary before damning the torpedoes when it comes to opening the bank account on a car as an investment.  If you buy it because you love it and the price is secondary well, that's quite a different animal.

[Old Moparz]

I think there are a few fakes of those floating around too.  I'm not sure the moral is to stay away from "numbers matching" so much as to be wary before damning the torpedoes when it comes to opening the bank account on a car as an investment.  If you buy it because you love it and the price is secondary well, that's quite a different animal.

Yes, fake build sheets are out there as well as fake fender tags. I'd say they are more common than fake VIN tags & easily reproduced since they aren't illegal. They aren't illegal because they aren't recognized by the DMV as the true ID of the vehicle. Think about it, they basically used them to assemble the car on the line at the factory & not to register the vehicle. Over the years, with the rise in value on the cars, the more rare options that a car had, the more value "people" place on the car. Authentic options installed at the factory raise the price, so it makes sense that certain people see the advantage of using the buildsheets & fender tags to profit.

Someone on Moparts sells original, blank, Chrysler, build sheets for something like $500 a piece. (I don't want to post an incorrect name, but I know he's from Arizona.) He claims he's just a hobbyist helping other hobbyists. They got their paws on them through some old dealership purging old papers. He claims he also has the ability to print them with the correct font with whatever options you stated came with your car. Technically, there isn't anything wrong with doing this, but almost everyone knows that the only true reason to do this, is to increase the value of the car & profit from it. If there wasn't, why would a simple sheet of paper be bought for $500 when others reunite owners of cars with original buildsheets for free?

The more value you place on rarity, authenticity, & whatever else separates a vehicle from similar vehicles, the more chance there is that you'll be taken by a less than moral character. A lot of the fun in the car hobby, or any hobby, is lost when you have to constantly worry & research more & more of it so you aren't ripped off. Years ago I couldn't wait to one day own a real Hemi car, or some other car that was rare & different, but I have almost no desire for that now. I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't be cool to have a real one, but I'm content with just having a base model of whatever car I happen to like.

[JimShine]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

ya what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags.  ?

I believe over time it will be exceptable to have these stamps missing on a fully restored car. The trunk lip is already on the market, the radiator will be here soon. Both come blank.

[hemihead]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

ya what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags.  ?

I believe over time it will be exceptable to have these stamps missing on a fully restored car. The trunk lip is already on the market, the radiator will be here soon. Both come blank.

But there are more places than just those.

[Ghoste]

And they aren't a huge secret.  Maybe not commonly known but known enough for any good counterfeitor.

[Back N Black]

I think some people go are way too far in trying to save a numbers car or a R/T.The only numbers i'm concerned with is Horsepower and torque.

[69_500]

I don't recall anyone selling origional blank broadcast sheet. but I could have missed it. I do know people who will make you a broadcast sheet for your car though. They do it so that people can put a sheet back under the seat and leave it there, and keep the origional one out for safe keeping. They will not make you a sheet unless you have one already.

There are others reproducing sheets too though, and will make it with whatever options you want on it. There is however some test that can be performed on the paper to tell if its from the correct era. which helps in telling if its an origional sheet or a repro.

[Tigger]

I have a question for anybody who is willing to respond. If you know VIN tampering is illegal and you know someone who did it or is now doing it, did you blow the whistle or just were you just afraid of legal backlash?

[71gtx]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

there are no numbers on  trunk lip in a 70-74  e-body  or a 71-74 b-body its on cowl the numbers

68-70 bodys ithe numbers on the trunk lip

[The70RT]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

there are no numbers on  trunk lip in a 70-74  e-body  or a 71-74 b-body its on cowl the numbers

68-70 bodys ithe numbers on the trunk lip

To bad all of them weren't on the cowls, that would make it harder to change then.

[Old Moparz]

I have a question for anybody who is willing to respond. If you know VIN tampering is illegal and you know someone who did it or is now doing it, did you blow the whistle or just were you just afraid of legal backlash?

Blowing the whistle would be fine with me & I wouldn't have a problem doing it if I had to, but you have to remember it's not something you can just claim without having proof. There's a legal process to just about everything we do, & if it isn't adhered to correctly, you're wasting your time. Unless you're the buyer who's been ripped off & have receipts from a seller, cancelled checks, a copy of the ad claiming the vehicle is what they say it is, you're claim is just that, a claim. We've all heard stories about individuals & companies who have done something wrong to someone we know, but in most cases we aren't directly involved.

Use halpag as an example. Most of the people on D-C.com, Moparts.com, & other car forums, are well aware of their practices & what they've done to people as far as selling "quality" vehicles. What's the actual number of people who can legally claim & prove that they have been ripped off by halpag? It's very low compared to the number of people who know what kind of scumbags they are. The same thing that prevents us from ganging up legally on a scam artist like halpag, protects us too. It would be chaos if anyone & everyone who is unhappy over a sale could just go to court & say "This person is a thief, go arrest him or keep him from selling cars or parts."

Like I posted earlier, I'm aware of someone who is a vendor that is well liked & trusted in the hobby. I've known this individual personally since the early 1980's & have "heard" things by several people who are friends of mine about them. There was no reason for them to lie to me, & they've been friends of mine for 20 years or so, & I trust them. Now if that same individual had sold me a car that was the result of fraud, I'd have every piece of paper documented & file charges against them without a second thought. I don't expect anyone to simply believe me because I posted this on a forum, but hopefully someone reading what I typed will be more aware that anyone can be guilty of fraud.

[The70RT]

I have a question for anybody who is willing to respond. If you know VIN tampering is illegal and you know someone who did it or is now doing it, did you blow the whistle or just were you just afraid of legal backlash?

Never knew of any myself. Unless you got screwed then who wouldn't turn them in? If you just know someone that did or is doing then you have to stick your neck out and it could get hairy. I doubt if your local law enforcement would have a clue and would have to call in an expert on mopars. Around here you deal with the highway patrol on inspection on non highway titles or a built car etc. 

[Ghoste]

I wonder what would happen if you bought one of these "rebodied, recreation, clone" whatever muscle cars that somebody swapped tags onto in an effort to increase the value and you offered to pay the guy with bogus cash?  If it looks and feels just like real money, there shouldn't be a problem right?

[UFO]

Would this not be considered two separate problems?
One is a rebody. Where you take original tags and make a "repair" to the body shell.
Two is a tag fraud.Where you turn a 318 car into a hemi or base car into an R/T.

[Ghoste]

To me, a rebody is a little more involved than a "repair".  It comes down to your individual definition but when I think of a rebody, I think of basically putting tags on a better bodied car which is still vin swap.

[hemihead]

As far as any legal action goes , it would depend on which party had more money . If the buyer is a wealthy guy he might get something done. If the seller is rich , no chance. Let's face it , in this world just because it's the right thing doesn't mean justice is served.

[no318]

Would this not be considered two separate problems?
One is a rebody. Where you take original tags and make a "repair" to the body shell.
Two is a tag fraud.Where you turn a 318 car into a hemi or base car into an R/T.

Very good point.  I agree.  There is a difference.

[Ghoste]

Again though, don't you think a repair is where you take some bad sections out and replace them with good metal and a rebody is where virtually the entire car is replaced, and/or the valuable tags are just swapped over onto an around better "dodnor" body?

[UFO]

This is where everybody has to decide at what point the shell has an identity,after all a 318 auto shell looks just like a 440 auto shell.
The same goes for other makes as well.What about the new mustang and camaro shells,how are they registered?

[Ghoste]

So just swapping the 440 tags onto the 318 shell is okay with you?  (yes I'm trying to paint you into a corner  )

[UFO]

If I know about it and the price reflected it.A solid shell is a lot better than a bunch of patches.In repairing a truck floor recently I have seen how things are done.Tar,fibreglass mat and a piece of lumber do not make a floor pan.
I personally would not buy a car that far gone in the first place.

[Alaskan_TA]

What about the new mustang and camaro shells,how are they registered?

They are titled as "kit cars".

[69_500]

It doesn't matter how solid the other car is, once you move the tags or numbers from one to the other it becomes FRAUD. Doesn't matter how you spell it, its WRONG>

[no318]

I think the point is that there are ALOT of restored cars that have new floors, trunk floors, inner and outer quarters, tailpanels and even roofs, etc. etc, replaced.  Not much remains orig.  That really isn't much different from replacing the whole shell with a better one.  Neither car is what it left the factory as and the later probably has better "fit" when everything is done. 

[Ghoste]

So if I buy an envelope with a title, a vin, a broadcast sheet, and a fender tag and it's all for a rare Hemi car.  Let's also just say it comes with a box of excellent rust free metal from the same car that matches what I have in the envelope, and let's just assume that the rust free parts are a rad cradle and a trunk lip.  So now I own a car that's virtually the same as the Hemi car except that it's in incredible condition.  If Iput all of the Hemi identification on the rust free car, it isn't wrong, I'm just saving a Hemi car from extinction, right?  It shouldn't matter what it left the factory with just so long as I haev the identifying proof that shows it to be a real Hemi car.  You'd happily pay top dollar for that right?