This just makes me mad (tag fraud/rebody rant)

[Ghoste]

So I'm making small talk with a guy last night at my little bride's office Christmas party and after it turns out that he lives near my parents, he makes a statement to the effect of, "Are you the one who drops by there all the time with the old Charger?".  Naturally, I'm more into the conversation at this point and when he mentions that his son is restoring a 70 Cuda, then he's got my attention just that much more.  But then, he dropped the bomb.  He tells me that his son's car is on a rotisserie right now and the progress is stalled.  Why?, I ask.  Because it was a 383 car originally but he wants to make it a Hemi car so he's been hunting for tags to change them over, the good news being of course, that he thinks he's finally found a set and he's making a deal with some guy to buy the Hemi tags so he can put them on his car.  I casually mentioned that that may not be completely legal.  The guys wife pipes up at this point and mentions that it's perfectly legal, her brother did it with his Cuda.  Since it's a small world, it turns out I know her infamous brother and I know about the Cuda of which she spoke.  I did indeed know already that he had "magically" transformed it from a 318 car to a "factory" 340 car.
This is the kind of thing that makes me want to scream.  I didn't to anything but nod politely and bite my tongue.  There was of course, no way I was going to get in an argument with anybody from my wife's work.  I do however, plan to try and track this Cuda down and watch for any shady numbers swapping.  This is even really a rebody, it's just vin fraud. 

[nakita7]

Have you seen the price of these cars? Where there is greed, there will be illegal activity. I have personally seen a rebodied Hemi car, and that was 15 years ago, when they were worth 10-20% of what they are today!!! I would bet it goes on all the time...

[69bronzeT5]

 

[charge69]

I understand how you feel you should bite your tongue about this with your wife's co-workers but!!!!!!!!!   I am not sure I could have done it. Lots more numbers to change besides the vin tag and body tag to make it undetectable to the knowledgeable MOPAR enthusiast!  This kind of thing really pizzes me off, though! Definitely one to try to track down and keeps tabs on.

[1969chargerrtse]

Wow   first off, you write very well and handled yourself great.  Man, I don't know what to say?  It's wrong and Illegal (right).  You're better than me, I would of been polite, but there's now way when the Mom jumped in and said it's o.k because the other car is the same way, that I could of not said politely, you are wrong!  and we would of hit it head to head then.  I hear your frustration, and I'll bet your little bride heard it all night long.  We here ya brother.

[70 Battle Horse]

I'd tip off the police on both Cudas.....Then see how smug she is at next years party

[Back N Black]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

[1969chargerrtse]

I understand how you feel you should bite your tongue about this with your wife's co-workers but!!!!!!!!!   I am not sure I could have done it. Lots more numbers to change besides the vin tag and body tag to make it undetectable to the knowledgeable MOPAR enthusiast!  This kind of thing really pizzes me off, though! Definitely one to try to track down and keeps tabs on.

It should piss you off.  Think about it, If "real" Hemi cars were the only Hemi cars out there, how much fewer would be on the road, making rare cars like your even more valuable?  I went to a Mopar show this fall.  I was telling one of my friends, there were more Hemi cudas there than they ever made.  Now I know why.

[Mike DC]

It sucks.  This has a lot to do with my lack in enthusiasm for numbers-matching cars. 


 
Ever notice how the survival rates on the most valuable handful of models always seem to be A LOT higher than for the rest of them?  It has always smelled fishy to me. 

The usual excuse is that the numbers cars were more likely to be prized by their early & middle-years owners, but I don't entirely buy that.  I think that high horsepower & status was at least as likely to get the car driven into a tree in 1976 as getting it preserved to the present.   

[hemihead]

I'd tip off the police on both Cudas.....Then see how smug she is at next years party

Love that !  Does seem like there are more Hemi cars that was ever built doesn't it ? Same with Daytonas and Superbirds too . I really surprised that the guy admitted to swapping VIN's . And nobody will ever admit that a car he owns had a Swap Job done to it , even if he bought it that way. I wonder how many Chargers on this board are rebodies ?   

[Ghoste]

The uncle in this family (with the 340 car) is notorious within the local Mopar community for shyster tricks going back a few decades now so the nephew comes by it naturally I suppose.  As for the other numbers on the body, I have no idea how far he's going with his renumbering.

[pettyfan43]

That is one thing for sure, BOTH of my Chargers are factory 318 cars, I have NO PROBLEM with that, I will build them the way I want em. Like I told a buddy of mine, when I am driving that 66, with that big 440 humming along, it don't make a #$%^ bit of difference to ME what came in it originally.

If it were a Hemi car ORIGINALLY, then I would probably be more picky. I am looking for a fun reliable big block cruiser. When the 66 is done, I will hopefully have a nice reliable car I can drive anywhere. Same for my 73.

I AIN'T looking to go swapping serial numbers on the cars, and my cars will wear their VIN tags and fender tags with honor. I'm even putting the little V-8 emblems back on the 66. It will be obvious what both cars started as. Most Mopar people know that the 440 wasn't an option on the Charger in 66 ANYWAY!

[Troy]

At the Norwalk show a guy flat out told me he "found a better car" and swapped all his numbers to it. I hadn't talked to him for more than a few minutes at the time. He didn't know me and he obviously had no idea that he had done anything wrong. That isn't half as bad as the engine builder (who is no longer working on my engine due to other "issues") who told me he could stamp any numbers I wanted on my block to make it "numbers matching". He definitely knew better but made the comment that he does it all the time. I know people were faking these cars back in the 80s during the last muscle car boom so who knows how many cars from then are still around after a few different owners who still think their car is all original?

Troy

[hemi-hampton]

Being in the Mopar Resto Business I've been asked to do this But wont do it. Because of this I have lost business & they'll go find someone else that will do it for them. The people that want it done say whats the big deal, every body does it. Some people see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Changing Vin#'s aint any different then changing your socks or Underwear some seem to think. I think the problem is much bigger then any body realizes or can imagine. LEON.

[69charger2002]

sad but true. it will not stop until a one or a few make headlines getting busted for this. someone important or famous would be the best way to get the word out how seriously wrong and illegal it is. i would be devastated to save money my whole life, when i turn 60 go buy a 69 hemi charger.. only to find out 2 years later after serious digging that it had been rebodied and the last 6 of the VIN is in chris's registry as a plain old 318 car.. could you imagine?? it's just not fair to the hobbyist who PAYS to get a real hemi car. sure at times we wish that the douchebags with all the money who just spend $150k on a daytona because they think it's cool, or at next year's BJ they can get $250k for it.. would get screwed.. it's STILL not right and i wouldn't wish that on anyone.. it just plain sucks. and i get asked all the time if i have any R/T dashes or fender tags laying around.. i KNOW one R/T car i sold got used for a rebody after i sold it.. as after the guy had the car shipped to canada.. i wrote him an email telling me to keep me updated with the progress of the car, as i'd like to see it. that's when he dropped the bomb.. oh i cut that car up and scrapped it already. i bought it for the tags...      ah well. the more expensive these cars get, the more often it will happen

trav

[68charger383]

You come across this a lot.

Look at ebay...selling fender tags for some big money to guys looking to swindle people. They even sell the factory number stamp tools so you can put the numbers on the parts. 

[C_stripes]

I know a guy that is doing it with a 71 GTX. It is a factory TX9 440 4spd dana fender tag and vin. He bought them off of Ebay. He is using a 72 sat sebring + for the body. I have told him its not right and tried to get him not to do it but he is going to anyway. He says he is going to make it numbers matching. I gave him the whole story about if he bought a car and found out it was a fake/ rebody.  He said he would not care. Then I asked wy he cares so much that this car is going to be a GTX.  He replies. Its worth more.   I also know of a instance with a GTO judge out of Idaho falls.  If anyone   you know is looking at a  GTO judge that is a numbers matching Auto factory white that is in or around Idaho Falls idaho.  IT IS NOT NUMBERS!!! The trans and engine have been restamped.  I think someone should start a database that has all the known fakies vins listed.  It would be a public service.  Shore, People would not be happy about it. But who cares.  The people that would not be happy are the ones trying to rip everyone off.  Funny thing is, Is its not the average car enthusiast that is doing it.  Its the rich flippers.  Its not only in the mopar business that its going on in eather.  I was once told that there are More 57 Chevy 2 doors now than ever were made.  Its probably true.   I remember my Dada saying that in the early 90's 

SAD BUT TRUE!!!

Jeremy

[69bronzeT5]

I think someone should start a database that has all the known fakies vins listed.  It would be a public service. 

[Todd Wilson]

Being in the Mopar Resto Business I've been asked to do this But wont do it. Because of this I have lost business & they'll go find someone else that will do it for them. The people that want it done say whats the big deal, every body does it. Some people see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Changing Vin#'s aint any different then changing your socks or Underwear some seem to think. I think the problem is much bigger then any body realizes or can imagine. LEON.

Its out of control in the old Dodge truck world. They get away with it all the time. Frame #'s dont match serial tags.   Have a title/VIN but no truck..go find a truck with no title and swap it. And for some reason stuff pass's state inspection or gets thru customs on the Canada border. They look at the paper work and the VIN/Serial# tag phillip screwed into the door jam and all is well.  I have probably come across 50 various situations where illegal activity is going on. If its that easy for me to do I would think the law could set up a sting and bust people left and right but no one seems to care. Titles and Serial#/VIN's are sold on ebay every day.  I've called people out on stuff on the open forum and have got my ass kicked bad by lots of people who see nothing wrong with it on the forums.


Todd

[tan top]

Love that !  Does seem like there are more Hemi cars that was ever built doesn't it ? Same with Daytonas and Superbirds too . I really surprised that the guy admitted to swapping VIN's . And nobody will ever admit that a car he owns had a Swap Job done to it , even if he bought it that way. I wonder how many Chargers on this board are rebodies ?   

hmmmmmmmm    i have often wondered that when i see a restored hemi ebody  in a magazine  or for sale , it shows the fender tag  & it is full of all the desireable options & is a repop tag, not saying all but it makes you wonder   ........ & it still having its matching # motor . like i said it is probably genuine , but the survival rate seems high , knowing how these cars must of been beat on during the first few years

[1969chargerrtse]

I know a guy that told me how he restamped a very rare big block engine for his car.   He showed me how he laid down strips of masking tape and stamped nice and neat numbers on a bench, then peeled up the tape, laid it on the block pad, put the stamps back in the prestamped marks and restamped it.  I said what about the cast date on the side of the block?  Oh, I ground down the numbers that were not correct and Laid weld down to make new numbers and then painted the block.  

[rav440]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

ya what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags.  ?

[dkn1997]

I think the best move is what you did.  it would have gotten you nowhere to start a broo ha ha at wifey's work.  Now follow up and close the loop on this by watching out for that car and swooping in when the time is right.

[BigBlackDodge]

Ever notice that the people who don't have a problem with VIN swaps are the ones who are doing them? Let them pay for a 'factory' hemi Cuda' and discover afterwards that someone pulled the original /6 and swapped some numbers around..........................they'd have a lawyer in about 10 minutes. The only reason they are doing it is to make more money when they sell..........or why bother doing it?


When they're done restoring the car ask them to take it the state patrol/police station and explain what they did and why..............................I bet they'll refuse.


This is a clear act of fraud and highly illegal.


BBD

[bmoparmofo]

Ghoste, what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags. 

ya what about the numbers on the trunk lip and the rad support? That would not jive with his Hemi tags.  ?

Maybe they grind them down and restamp it somehow? someone mentioned ebay has some tools for this I guess.