2009 Corvette - May be the begining of the end of Proformance cars

[SeattleCharger]

What about the power generated from splitting an atom?   put that to the rear wheels,   someday . . .

[SeattleCharger]

I find it amazing that many more people aren't questioning the touted fuel economy improvements of anything today? My old 1984 ford tempo with a 2.3l overhead valve, carbureted 4 cyl. gets 450 highway miles on 8 gal. of gas, regularly, and it has over 200,000 miles on it and has never even had the carb off! My wife's 98 saturn can barely get that! (Ford even made a diesel version of the tempo that goes an extra 100miles) Now they want me to spend way more money on a new hybrid or electric with 6000 batteries (I can't get my cell phone bat to last 2 yrs so I guess I'll replace 6000 bat at 100$ a pop??)
     Talk about batteries I'm sure there are members on this board who have been in construction for the past 30 yrs. Remember when cordless drills first came out? Why is it that the first drills were a couple hundred bucks, 9.6 volt and the batteries lasted 6-10 yrs. Now the so-called  top end 300$ drills only last 2 yrs or less under the same use? I have gone through 8 drills (various so-called top-end drills) in the last ten yrs. These salesmen keep talking us into the next big thing in cordless battery technology and we keep getting disappointed.
    Having said that, I have heard of the new (2yrs ago) nano-technology in battery charging but this only addresses charging times.

sounds like a scam,  like the cell phone company will give you the phone practicially, but the minutes cost a lot month after month,
      you can get a tv for cheap if you want, but the cable costs,   computers are better and less money, but the internet costs.

   One of my vehices, 91 civic, gets 35 in the city,  driving that much more now cause it saves so much on gas money,  but ya, in 17 years a new economy car is not that impressive in the mpg area, but that's a scam too,

        notice how as soon as the big SUV sales started to decline, gas prices started to rise and rise, at the exact time,  its like they flooded the market with gas hogs as much and as long as they could, then as soon as the sales declined, they hiked up the gas prices to make a bundle on all the people who were driving them,    a new hummer or ford excursion getting 8 mpg or 9 mpg in 2007?  that is hard to believe,

[Mike DC]

As for the touted MPG improvements in the last 30 years, I don't think they're even supposedly real.  All that MPG crap has done is allow detroit to make cars heavier (more loaded with safety and unnessecary cushy stuff) without the mileage getting any worse. 

The fact that a lot of country doesn't actually care about getting all that cushy stuff is irrelevant, because the new car buyers want it as a whole.   

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As for Hydrogen, I would believe that America is in the slow process of switching to hydrogen cars.  Possibly.  But either way that wasn't my point.  My point was that hydrogen was not an economically viable substitute for gasoline powered cars in the apples-to-apples sense. 

Subsidizing a hydrogen switchover to cut down the oil dependence a little wouldn't hurt.    But the big-picture economics of it still don't work.  We can't get anywhere near the massive electrical power production that we would need to get a hundred million vehicles switched over to hydrogen.  If we do this, we're just trading a crippled economy because of oil demands for a crippled economy because of electrical power demands. 

Hydrogen cars might very very well happen, and it would indeed begin to help shield us from future middle-eastern oil issues.  But it's not gonna return us to the bygone days of virtually-free trasportation fuel 50 years ago.  Hydro is likely gonna remain more expensive than the worst gas prices we've ever had.  Either that, or very likely the costs will just get pushed around to somewhere else in the economy to convince us that transportation fuel prices have gotten under control again when they really have not.

     
   

[1969chargerrtse]

As for the touted MPG improvements in the last 30 years, I don't think they're even supposedly real.  All that MPG crap has done is allow Detroit to make cars heavier (more loaded with safety and unnecessary cushy stuff) without the mileage getting any worse. 

The fact that a lot of country doesn't actually care about getting all that cushy stuff is irrelevant, because the new car buyers want it as a whole.   

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As for Hydrogen, I would believe that America is in the slow process of switching to hydrogen cars.  Possibly.  But either way that wasn't my point.  My point was that hydrogen was not an economically viable substitute for gasoline powered cars in the apples-to-apples sense. 

Subsidizing a hydrogen switchover to cut down the oil dependence a little wouldn't hurt.    But the big-picture economics of it still don't work.  We can't get anywhere near the massive electrical power production that we would need to get a hundred million vehicles switched over to hydrogen.  If we do this, we're just trading a crippled economy because of oil demands for a crippled economy because of electrical power demands. 

Hydrogen cars might very very well happen, and it would indeed begin to help shield us from future middle-eastern oil issues.  But it's not gonna return us to the bygone days of virtually-free transportation fuel 50 years ago.  Hydro is likely gonna remain more expensive than the worst gas prices we've ever had.  Either that, or very likely the costs will just get pushed around to somewhere else in the economy to convince us that transportation fuel prices have gotten under control again when they really have not.

     
   

   I'm not getting this at all, and truly maybe I don't understand ?   "We can't get anywhere near the massive electrical power production that we would need to get a hundred million vehicles switched over to hydrogen."   This does not make sense? We produce Hydrogen, not a big deal at all and keep in mind it may be more per gallon unit whatever now, But we are in the beginning stages.  Anyway, We produce Hydrogen, we pump, push inject, whatever into  the fuel cell of a car, that fuel cell, separates atoms or whatever and makes electrons that the car motor runs on out the exhaust is pure drinkable water.   Where's this big electrical load for the Nation?   Pure plug in electric cars will use house current, but hydrogen cars run on Hydrogen, and that source is probably one of the most available sources out there.  As noted before, you can bet if all or most of the car companies are turning in that direction, and fuel stations are being built, it's been well thought out.

[Mike DC]

Look at it this way:

About 3/4 of the earth is covered by water that's a couple miles deep, and yet we have "water shortages" all the time.  It's not that mankind literally doesn't have enough water, it's that we sometimes don't have enough fresh non-salty water right near the places that we want to build large cities. 

Of course we can pipe in freshwater from a couple hundred miles away.  And we can de-salinize the local saltwater too.  But what are the economics of either one of those operations?  The water "shortage" is a lack of suitable water that can be maintained in the area cheaply enough for our needs.  Desalinizing or transporting water isn't technologically difficult at all, but the economics are another story. 




I'm not a big expert on hydrogen or anything but I've read about it in the past.  As I understand it, the hydrogen "shortage" is not a huge problem when we're not demanding A TON of the stuff.  But if we try to move major portions of our oil-burning jobs to hydrogen then the (cheap) hydrogen supply will never even begin to hold up. 

We can find hydrogen all over the earth, but hydrogen molecules easily bond to everything.  We have to do work to split it out of whatever it was bonded to.


Fossil fuels are unique situation.  Coal, oil, natural gas . .  we find huge wads of fuel sitting underground in virtually ready-to-burn condition.   

 

[1969chargerrtse]

Look at it this way:

About 3/4 of the earth is covered by water that's a couple miles deep, and yet we have "water shortages" all the time.  It's not that mankind literally doesn't have enough water, it's that we sometimes don't have enough fresh non-salty water right near the places that we want to build large cities. 

Of course we can pipe in freshwater from a couple hundred miles away.  And we can de-salinize the local saltwater too.  But what are the economics of either one of those operations?  The water "shortage" is a lack of suitable water that can be maintained in the area cheaply enough for our needs.  Desalinizing or transporting water isn't technologically difficult at all, but the economics are another story. 




I'm not a big expert on hydrogen or anything but I've read about it in the past.  As I understand it, the hydrogen "shortage" is not a huge problem when we're not demanding A TON of the stuff.  But if we try to move major portions of our oil-burning jobs to hydrogen then the (cheap) hydrogen supply will never even begin to hold up. 

We can find hydrogen all over the earth, but hydrogen molecules easily bond to everything.  We have to do work to split it out of whatever it was bonded to.


Fossil fuels are unique situation.  Coal, oil, natural gas . .  we find huge wads of fuel sitting underground in virtually ready-to-burn condition.   

 

Ah, Mike, formerly  Miked. Lets sit back and enjoy the ride of whatever it is whomever is doing.  I have no idea what the future truley holds, but sounds cool to me so far. Merry Christmas.

[SeattleCharger]

What about fission?  and what is fission?   isn't there some fusion reactor they thought they invented that turned out to be a scam, but it was like a nuclear reactor except it was in water,  was in some movie with keanna reeves and morgan freeman, is this anything at all relating to hydrogen power that you are talking about?  what are the simple basics of hydrogen power?   what does it have to do with batteries?  steam engines were not hydrogen power right, because you had to heat the steam with something other than steam,  enjoying reading the thread, just wondering how hydrogen and batteries are related, 

[1969chargerrtse]

What about fission?  and what is fission?   isn't there some fusion reactor they thought they invented that turned out to be a scam, but it was like a nuclear reactor except it was in water,  was in some movie with keanna reeves and morgan freeman, is this anything at all relating to hydrogen power that you are talking about?  what are the simple basics of hydrogen power?   what does it have to do with batteries?  steam engines were not hydrogen power right, because you had to heat the steam with something other than steam,  enjoying reading the thread, just wondering how hydrogen and batteries are related, 

   Boy did this thread change direction, sorry. Arthur.        Click here for  that answer.     http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/fuel-cell/

[SeattleCharger]

What about fission?  and what is fission?   isn't there some fusion reactor they thought they invented that turned out to be a scam, but it was like a nuclear reactor except it was in water,  was in some movie with keanna reeves and morgan freeman, is this anything at all relating to hydrogen power that you are talking about?  what are the simple basics of hydrogen power?   what does it have to do with batteries?  steam engines were not hydrogen power right, because you had to heat the steam with something other than steam,  enjoying reading the thread, just wondering how hydrogen and batteries are related, 

   Boy did this thread change direction, sorry. Arthur.        Click here for  that answer.     http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/fuel-cell/

thanks.     so the new vette runs on batteries?  J/K

   I like the argument of thinking of a slot car or even a remote control car, the speeds of those thing if put into scale must be incredible, it could happen IMO when demand spurs more research and incentive,

   Look at computer technologies, the processor, the chip,-  all the technology that not so long ago they said was impossible, computers the size of a whole floor on a big building, weren't crap compared to what can fit in the size of this period "." today, literally.  The cash involved in that has caused so much competition to create, the leaps in technology are huge and just seem to keep happening year after year,  why not with fuel cells/batteries and electric motors for vehicles?   the gas will run out or become so expensive, don't know how long, just a matter of time,  but by then computers and technology will allow for even more progress in electric car technology,
 

[1969chargerrtse]

What about fission?  and what is fission?   isn't there some fusion reactor they thought they invented that turned out to be a scam, but it was like a nuclear reactor except it was in water,  was in some movie with keanna reeves and morgan freeman, is this anything at all relating to hydrogen power that you are talking about?  what are the simple basics of hydrogen power?   what does it have to do with batteries?  steam engines were not hydrogen power right, because you had to heat the steam with something other than steam,  enjoying reading the thread, just wondering how hydrogen and batteries are related, 

   Boy did this thread change direction, sorry. Arthur.        Click here for  that answer.     http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/fuel-cell/

thanks.     so the new vette runs on batteries?  J/K

   I like the argument of thinking of a slot car or even a remote control car, the speeds of those thing if put into scale must be incredible, it could happen IMO when demand spurs more research and incentive,

   Look at computer technologies, the processor, the chip,-  all the technology that not so long ago they said was impossible, computers the size of a whole floor on a big building, weren't crap compared to what can fit in the size of this period "." today, literally.  The cash involved in that has caused so much competition to create, the leaps in technology are huge and just seem to keep happening year after year,  why not with fuel cells/batteries and electric motors for vehicles?   the gas will run out or become so expensive, don't know how long, just a matter of time,  but by then computers and technology will allow for even more progress in electric car technology,
 

That's my point.  Here is this roadster already made and sold, and on it's first year does 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, and runs for 250 mpcharge!  Imagine just 5 years from now?

[Mike DC]

Unfortunately this isn't the early days of these problems though. 

Problems with long-term electrical storage (batteries) have been around for 100 years.  They've been a major limiting factor in everything from the Apollo missions to modern cell phones.   For decades the story has been '_____ will become more practical as soon as future battery technology develops."  But it just keeps on not happening. 

[SeattleCharger]

Unfortunately this isn't the early days of these problems though. 

Problems with long-term electrical storage (batteries) have been around for 100 years.  They've been a major limiting factor in everything from the Apollo missions to modern cell phones.   For decades the story has been '_____ will become more practical as soon as future battery technology develops."  But it just keeps on not happening. 

We need something big, like the invention of the transistor or microchip,  some major breakthrough needs to happen that will revolutionize batteries, aren't we due for something sometime here?   could happen

[1969chargerrtse]

Unfortunately this isn't the early days of these problems though. 

Problems with long-term electrical storage (batteries) have been around for 100 years.  They've been a major limiting factor in everything from the Apollo missions to modern cell phones.   For decades the story has been '_____ will become more practical as soon as future battery technology develops."  But it just keeps on not happening. 

We need something big, like the invention of the transistor or microchip,  some major breakthrough needs to happen that will revolutionize batteries, aren't we due for something sometime here?   could happen

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here.   I keep making the point that Hydrogen is the electrcal power coming for our future cars.  End of story.  Let's stop hanging on about batteries, and how long they last, a Hydrogen car does not have them, please go to the links and learn what a fuel cell is about.     Forget about batteries, chips, electrical storage,etc... etc.. etc...

[Steve P.]

I have been trying to stay away from this one as I started an alternative fuel thread long ago and it got kind of nasty.

First: Sorry about the thread going completely into something else, but I feel this is a very worthwhile conversation among all of us. Also I am very happy to see that we are all keeping our heads about ourselves. I was afraid this could go and I reallllly don't want that to happen.

Second: I have to agree that holding power in a battery is a good concept, but not working well for reasons already mentioned. Although I feel the battery powered drills and such are only a throw away item so that the makers and sellers have a job next year as well. I still have 1 well working 9.6 Volt Makita battery and it has to be at least 6 years old. Two others have recently passed.. 

Third:  I have watched the science of all of this on TV. I have read quite a bit on it and I slept in a Holiday Inn last night. Of course only the last part really makes a big difference.    The thing I DON'T see here is anything about SOLAR POWER.  Solar power is something we can take full advantage of every day. Yes we would need to store power over night. That can be done with stationary batteries. This is very different from carrying multiple batteries in your car. Huge difference...   We have vast deserts that get a nice sun bath every day and otherwise don't do much else for us. Why not spend a few billion of our tax dollars on some serious photo cells and transmission lines?  Most of the country's grid is fully capable now. We would just need to move power from the source.

Honda has hydrogen making capabilities now that use solar power to split out the hydrogen. It is slow, but they use a very small panel. They are working on building complete fueling stations with solar panel roofs.

Fourth:  I think the car companies that are building hydrogen cars are missing out on something big. They need to capture the water going out the tailpipe and RE-CYCLE it. They say it is potable water. Drinkable directly from the tailpipe. Why not capture it and water your flowers? Give it back upon the next fill up??

Fifth:   I don't fully agree that today's cars are heavier than years before. Yes, power features, safety features and miles and miles of wire has put on some pounds, BUT they are really not any heavier than our old beasts.  No, what burns me is that we went into a fuel crunch years ago. Then we drove K-CARS that got ok mileage and got the job done. Now we are still driving the K-CARS only with more electronics and comfort features, BUT rather than pushing the technology to better mileage, they pushed for more power. The HUMMER comes to mind. Sure we can push some 4 bangers to make up for the completely useless HUMMER.  The tech. should have been moving to good comfort in a smaller package. Instead the guy two houses away from me drives his military looking beast back and fourth to work (AT HOME DEPOT), and only ever uses it to pull 2 jet skies.

Does anyone here think the new Vette needs to be able to go 200 MPH? Not I.  I say we need to go to solar and hydrogen power and leave the gas for our muscle cars. Our REAL MUSCLE CARS....

[Mike DC]

 
I agree about the unnessecary issue of using Hummers to get to work and back.

But the way to fix that is to raise the price of gas, in exchange for not demanding even more govt-mandated mileage(higher price) from all vehicles.  Try getting any support for THAT idea anywhere.


Of course I love my fast cars as much as the next guy.  I just think it makes no sense to water-down the fast cars for the enthusiasts out there just so the other 100 million people (who don't even feel strongly about cars in the first place) can ALL  run 5500-pound 300-hp trucks every day. 

[SeattleCharger]

. . . . .

Fourth:  I think the car companies that are building hydrogen cars are missing out on something big. They need to capture the water going out the tailpipe and RE-CYCLE it. They say it is potable water. Drinkable directly from the tailpipe. Why not capture it and water your flowers? Give it back upon the next fill up??

. . . . .

I knew a guy and his wife had this set up on there house, bought all these 90 gallon plastic barrels for cheap used, ten bucks a piece, lined 'em up the whole back of their house, and all the gutters drained into them, you know in Olympia, WA it rains a lot, so he never spent a dime on watering a pretty good sized yard with lots of landscaping, all the barrels had that black spongy type hose that used osmosis to pull the water out of barrels at a slow rate and ran all through the plants, he didn't have to do anything, the whole thing was cheap to set up, was free to operate, and required no labor, accept clean out gutters, which you gotta do anyways, thought that was sort of cool,

There is much potential for conserving and recycling, here it is a fine to not recycle into the city recycle bin if they catch you being lazy and throwing it in the regular can, most people need the incentive of costing them money,
   
A lot of ideas just need to be cool or trendy and people will do it,  although mostly associated with tree huggers and such, look at the popularity the Prius has gotten with some following, it isn't perfect, but has become a status symbol in a way of the "look at me, I care" etc, heh, but hey, that is american in a way, status or trendy,  but ya, gas prices going way up will pretty much do it,

Solar panels could become as status of a thing as having a perfect green lawn that in most cases is full of chemical fertilizers and chemical weed killers that run into the waters as pollution, and require lots of water.  why is this so popular?  I don't know, it isn't even natural, 

[1969chargerrtse]

I agree the thread has turned form where it originated, but it's not getting nasty.  I know I'm (almost) done on the subject after this.  I made my point about Hydrogen cars of the future, being just around the corner.  As for water out the pipe, that was one of the issues Honda got reported back from someone that didn't like seeing a puddle on his gagrage floor. How they handled it, who knows?  My main point was electric cars are coming, Hydrogen cars are coming, and I think it's cool and can't wait to see where we will be decades down the road.  As for big butt Hummers, and fast vette's  GOD BLESS AMERICA! As Rocky B  once said  " Go for it" 

[Steve P.]

I guess I got distracted last night while typing about the HUMMERS and such. Sorry..

I agree that having and driving what you want IS the American way. I drive a V-10 guzzler myself. Though I do tend to use it much more to it's potential... I would love to have a second vehicle on the road that gets great mileage. I can't afford it. Insurance here is a major deterrent. Otherwise I would have a little Kia Sportage to jump around town in. 

Another point I would like to make is that we do seam to follow a trend or what we see on TV getting pounded down our throats.   Tons and tons of clothes are sold every year that have someones name or brand on it. Nike, Hilfigur, Reboch.  Why do we buy these? Why do our kids want them?  It's because someone put an ad on TV and then the stores put them in their windows.  (Oooo, I gotta have that). WHY?? Do you work for that company or maybe they help pay your gas and electric bill?? NO!!!!!!!  Then why do we have to have it??   Ok, so why not go back to the days of garbage trucks and city buses with signs that said, (Keep America Clean). Back in the 70's we had those signs. There was a difference. There was a good message there. So what's keeping us from making more of those GOOD choices for America?

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again, we need to make a change. We could have made many changes before this and we have the chance to make a great change now.  Oil will NEVER be just a thing of the past. We will still need it for just about every other thing in life. Our textiles, plastics, lubricants, paints and so on will be needing oil for many many many years to come. We cannot write off OIL. But it sure would be nice to have some of our own left for the taking once we do switch over to electro/hydro/fission/rubber band or squirrel driven vehicles.. No??       

[1969chargerrtse]

" We cannot write off OIL. But it sure would be nice to have some of our own left for the taking once we do switch over to electro/hydro/fission/rubber band or squirrel driven vehicles.. No??      Yes.                 ( I don't like squirrels )

[Mike DC]

Now THAT is something we can find solidarity on. 

When the switch begins, it can either be a case of pushing the new thiing extra hard or taking away our gas to force it.  I think we can all agree on what we want to see in that situation. 

"They can have my gas-guzzling V8 engine when they pry it from my cold, dead hands."

 

[Steve P.]

It's a transition that will take many years as we have many more things that run on gas than just our daily drivers. Our lawn mowers/tractors, chainsaws, generators, etc, etc, etc. We can not expect to have to junk all of these things over night. This will take quite some time.

I can't wait for them to put out a bunch of electric Harley's....  I am tired of hearing straight pipes.... 

[SeattleCharger]

It's a transition that will take many years as we have many more things that run on gas than just our daily drivers. Our lawn mowers/tractors, chainsaws, generators, etc, etc, etc. We can not expect to have to junk all of these things over night. This will take quite some time.

I can't wait for them to put out a bunch of electric Harley's....  I am tired of hearing straight pipes.... 

Ask and you shall receive!

from the link:
"We have discussed a number of times about electric cars, but, this is probably the first time we came across an impressive electric bike and to top-it-all an electric Harley-Davidson! Yes...Harley-Davidson going green! Vogel, an inventor-entrepreneur and an Harley enthusiast has modified a Harley-Davidson chassis so that it houses 560 pounds of lead-acid batteries and an electric motor that can achieve 85 mph. The bike is less powerful than a stock Harley and can travel about 60 miles, at 55 mph, on a single charge. The electric bike can be plugged into an electrical wall outlet and recharged in three hours. Vogel plans to begin manufacturing the electric motorcycles in 2007 and will sell them for a price tag between $29,000 and $40,000."
Here is link:
http://www.bornrich.org/entry/new-electric-harley-davidson

[Jon Smith]

hydrogen doesn't come handily compressed in cylinders...you need a lot of power to compress it, it'd be OK if you used renewable energy to compress it...but the water vapour that comes out of the exhaust is more of a greenhouse gas than CO2

[Steve P.]

Recently, alternative methods of creating hydrogen directly from sunlight and water through a metallic catalyst have been announced. This may eventually provide an economical, direct conversion of solar energy into hydrogen a very clean solution for hydrogen production.

[SeattleCharger]