power wagon

[70kracken]

i just bought a 78 power wagon that's all the time four wheel drive.  i've been told that just changing the hubs will free the front end up and that's it.  i've also been told that something has to be done to the transfer case along with the hubs.  at this point i'm not really sure what to do.  i do know that the truck sucks down some gas!  any info would be great!

[Steve P.]

I'm not big on 4WD, but I know that every bit of friction reduces your mileage. I had a full time F-250 plow truck years ago that I put a Warm lock out set on and once that was done I was saving on U-joints. Never bothered to check mileage as that thing was a pig from the word go..

Gas was not my concern. Replacing parts and down time from plowing was..

[speedfreak68]

yes lockout hubs will help becuase you won't be turning your whole front end everytime the tire rotates, but as far as the transfercase i don't think you have to do anything to it. my dad and i did this and we didn't do anything to the transfercase.

[dukeboy_318]

Ive got a 78 power wagon with a 360/4spd with the NP205 transfer case all time transfer case,  Id leave the transfer case alone, that transfer cases is one of the best transfer cases ever made, so good infact its the same that the US military hummvees have, as for the front end, lock out hubs wont help that much,you'll still be running in 4 wheel drive even with the hubs connected, i wouldnt reccomend it but you could try it, but maybe a 1mpg increase from what ive seen over the years of being in 4 wheeling before getting into mopar muscle,  In my opinion, if you want better mileage, get a different truck, power wagons were built to be tough offroad machines, heck military used them, not fuel efficent trucks.  Heck, if you dont plan on using four wheel drive any, than disconnect the front drive shaft, put it under the seat and drive it that way. just my 

[70kracken]

oh yeah, that's right, cuz i have tons of money to just buy new vehicles when ever the one i have isn't just right!  and for ur info, i was a humvee mechanic in the marine corps and they definately do not have the same transfer case!  no disrespect at all, but i'd like to make the truck i have more efficient so i don't have to get rid of it.  i could really care less about four wheeling, it simply wears things out faster.  and the truck is just to damn nice to tear up.

[firefighter3931]

oh yeah, that's right, cuz i have tons of money to just buy new vehicles when ever the one i have isn't just right!  and for ur info, i was a humvee mechanic in the marine corps and they definately do not have the same transfer case!  no disrespect at all, but i'd like to make the truck i have more efficient so i don't have to get rid of it.  i could really care less about four wheeling, it simply wears things out faster.  and the truck is just to damn nice to tear up.

What's with the attitude Kraken ? 

As for improving milage ; what is the engine/trans/rear end combo ? How long has it been since the last tuneup ?

You need to supply better info if you're looking for reasonable recommendations. 



Ron

[chargerbr549]

Years ago I was in the parts business and I don't think it is very easy or maybe its not possible to convert the Dodge full time front end from the 70's  to lock out style hubs like the other manufacturers have but I could be wrong, I think a front axle with the same ratio out of a newer pick-up might work better for you but I can't say this from experience. As for the transfer case I believe they used to sell a kit to convert it so the transfer case would be able to dissengage the front driveshaft like part-time ones do.

Kevin

[70kracken]

as for the attitude, i'm looking for technical advise, not someone's personal opinion as to what i should do with my truck.  if i came off a bit crabby i apologize!  the truck is a 360, i believe the trans is a 727, but i'm not sure if that was used in 4x4's.  the front is a danna 44.  this truck is my first 4x4 and i the only reason i got it, is because i just wrecked my dakota and i'm using the mojority of the money to get my self out of debt!  the power wagon was just recently restored and and is cherry, and of coarse it was in my price range.  i could really care less about off roading and tearing this thing up,  however i don't just wanna take the front drive line out as that would leave the truck "incomplete" and that would bother me.  i would like to get this thing the best mileage i could get out of it and still be able to use the four wheel drive if i ever do need it.  i totally realize that if fuel mileage was that big of an issue for me i should've bought a metro.  it's not that big of a deal, but who doesn't like saving money?  if some pictures would help identify some things for me i'll be glad to post em up.  i'm just familiar with 2nd gen chargers so, i'm ignorant when it comes to trucks.  thanks for all the help and again sorry if i came off like an ass.

[Troy]

Honestly, with a truck that size it's going to be tough. I looked at one a while ago and the gas mileage was approximately 8. I have a 2WD Suburban with a 454 and it gets a steady 10-10.5 whether it's empty or pulling 10,000 pounds. Hemi Rams with EFI and modern technology seem to struggle to get 13-15. How much/how far do you drive? Do you know approximately what mileage it gets now? What kind of improvement are you looking for? For example, at $3.00 per gallon, if you get 10 mpg and can improve that to 11 then you'll save approximately $28 every 1,000 miles. However, you'll save only $12.50 if you get 15 now and improve that to 16. That's only $7.14 going from 20 to 21. I drive 400 miles per week so a small improvement could save me a bunch if I drive my gas hog of a Suburban but not so much if I drive my Tacoma. My motorcycle gets 54 mpg but it's 20 degrees outside and there's ice on the roads.

There are several ideas for saving fuel here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/drive.shtml (applies to any vehicle).

The first step I'd take is to make sure everything is tuned correctly and all systems are in working order (my Suburban gained 3 mpg after I changed $5 worth of vacuum hoses). You can disconnect the front axle which would probably provide the most benefit but then you have the other problems associated with that. Proper inflation of the tires is another biggie - especially if you have "mudders" or any other off road tread. It wouldn't be a bad idea to switch to street tires although it would take a long time to offset that cost with fuel savings. You can change gears in the axles or add EFI too but you have the same problem with the cost being way more than the savings.

If you *need* much better mileage then your only realistic choice is to start with a different vehicle. That's not criticism - just logic and common sense. I happen to drive cars that I like (form over function) so I learn to accept the limitations. I'd much rather have a Power Wagon than some little econobox.

Troy

[Todd Wilson]

If its an automatic its a 727. But since you said you werent sure what automatic you have are you sure what transfer case you have?  You say full time 4x4.  Does it have a 4high and 4 low only or is there a 2high  4 high/4low?

If you have 2high/4high/4low you should be able to get lock outs for the front hub and that will help some with mpg but nota lot.



Todd

[NMike]

if it is a 1/2 ton truck, 150, then it will have the craptastic 203 anchor. the best mileage you will see is about 12-13mpg.

the fulltime front axle it has is a useless hub design dana 44. you can't get an inexpensive kit for it, plus the bearings always wear out and the truck handles like crap.

you can swap in a chev or or later model gen1 dodge front knuckles/axles ends. you will need to instal the part time kit into the 203 case. otherwise the truck will not move unless you put it into the LOCK position.

in all honesty, unless this is your dream truck and or free, don't buy it.

[70kracken]

i already bought the truck, and i'm not overwhelmingly concerned with gas, it would just be nice if it was a little better.  i love the truck and have no intention of getting rid of it.  i only travel about six miles a day to work and back.  it's not killing me by no means.  if it was, i would have to make the better choice and get a econo car.  that's not the case at all.  i was just told by a couple buddies of mine that there were some things i could do to make it better and just wanted to see what the truth was.  you guys have answered everything i have ever asked and i appreciate it to the fullest.  i can always rely on proper info from this site.  i'll post some pics of the truck and see what you guys think.  happy holidays.

[dukeboy_318]

I just doubled check, both the humvee and the 78 power wagons have the New Process 203 full time 4x4 transfer case, i was just trying to help, please dont cock an attitude, like i said, that was my personal opinion, i myself restored mine from the frame up and know quite bit about these power wagons.  Im still learning bout the cars though. Like said above its extremely expensive and hard to convert it to part time 4x4, best option in terms of price and easy of install is to go to a junk yard and find a NP 245 series transfer case, should bolt right up to the 727 in you truck.  This transfer case was used starting in the 80s in dodge and ford trucks and until recently, its use was continued even in the diesel trucks in the lat 90s, so finding one shouldnt be hard, might run you 200 bucks and 6 hours of work to complete the swap.  , getting good fuel mileage from the heavy power wagon is about as easy as sovling gobal warming,  best you're going to get especially with the 360 is 8-9, not sure if it was mentioned but you might try swaping gears to 3.55, but its all about the cost vs benefits, you'll spend quite a fortune trying to improve this trucks mileage and at best get 10 mpg, Ultimatley it comes down to how much effort and money you want to put in to it. Again, dont be offended by personal opinions, you're going to get personal opinion i was only trying to tell you what others have said above.  Hope this advice helps you somehow

[dukeboy_318]

heres some links talking about it,
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/powerwagons/system.html
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/howto/47538/index.html
also got this off of the Armys knowledge base, quoted from the FM for the M998/M999/M114/M1025/M1026 series humvees

"The High Mobility Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle is a light, highly mobile, diesel-powered, four-wheel-drive vehicle that uses a common 4,400 lb payload chassis. Using common components and kits, the HMMWV can be configured to become a troop carrier, armament carrier, S250 shelter carrier, ambulance, TOW missile carrier, and a Scout vehicle. The 4,400 lb variant was developed as the prime mover for the light howitzer, towed VULCAN system, and heavier shelter carriers. It is a tri-service program that also provides vehicles to satisfy Marine Corps and Air Force requirements.  It is powered by a 6.5 liter GM diesel power is transfered via a 3 speed Allison built transmission and equipped with a New Process 203 Full Time All Wheel Drive, Integral Transfer Case... "

just to back my claims. 

[70kracken]

like i said, i was a marine corps humvee mech.  i do know that marine corps and army hummers are set up differently.  marine hummers are set up to ford deep water where as typical army hummers are not.  i do not know the exact differences in transfer cases, but i do know that the transfer case in marine corps hummers is a rinky dink piece of crap and looked nothing like the one in my truck.  the one in the truck looks as big as the tranny.  all these differnt models ur talking about, ur right.  i've had the privelage of seeing these in action, and keeping them in action.  again sorry if a came on strong, i suppose it was just a misunderstanding on my part.  i appreciate ur help.  oh and you for got about the gatling gun version 

[Todd Wilson]

With the 6.5 GM diesel I wouldnt want to be in the middle of the stuff with a hum-v.


Todd

[firefighter3931]

Kracken,

To improve milage you will need to focus on tuning the motor unless you swap out the front axle assembly/transfer case and even then the gains will be marginal. With your short commutes the logical choice is to tune the engine and leave the drivetrain intact. 



Ron

[dukeboy_318]

like i said, i was a marine corps humvee mech.  i do know that marine corps and army hummers are set up differently.  marine hummers are set up to ford deep water where as typical army hummers are not.  i do not know the exact differences in transfer cases, but i do know that the transfer case in marine corps hummers is a rinky dink piece of crap and looked nothing like the one in my truck.  the one in the truck looks as big as the tranny.  all these differnt models ur talking about, ur right.  i've had the privelage of seeing these in action, and keeping them in action.  again sorry if a came on strong, i suppose it was just a misunderstanding on my part.  i appreciate ur help.  oh and you for got about the gatling gun version 

true i forgot abotu that, i think theyve got the wimpy 205, same design just smaller case and gears, known in the 4x4 world to snap easily.  No problem about the attitude, let me express my apologies for getting a little bit of one too.  I do agree with troy and firefighter, i just dont think its worth dumping a lot of money in to save 20-30 bucks over the course of several fill ups.  One thing i know guys have done is gotten a 30 gallon tank from a ramcharger and put in to increase the range and the time between fill ups.

[ACUDANUT]

   The Military needs to 9 card the Humvee. (get ride of it)  Those 6.2 and 6.5 Detroit's suck ass and a royal PITA to work on.  I have wrote Hummer/GM and told them the need to buy the Cummins Diesel and put that in the Hummer.  It would be a heck of alot easier to work on and they are 10 times better and 100% more trouble free.
   BTW I prefer the 7.3 Ford Diesels but to the avarage mech, they are too big and complicated.

***My 73 3/4 ton Dodge 2wd gets 5 mpg down hill with the engine off.  But, I love the bold tough look.

[ACUDANUT]

BUMP

[dukeboy_318]

  even with the turbo charger 6.2, they are junk, im an MP in 834 MP company, and our trucks suck a**, they do 0-60 in 9 flat, 9 minutes that is on a good day.  Especially the uparmored ones, i got the privelage to drive one of the new MRAP vehicles, now those are nice, 330 hp cat diesel, they get up and got for their wieght

[ACUDANUT]

Whats a mrap ?  Got a pic ?

[C_stripes]

I just doubled check, both the humvee and the 78 power wagons have the New Process 203 full time 4x4 transfer case, i was just trying to help, please dont cock an attitude, like i said, that was my personal opinion, i myself restored mine from the frame up and know quite bit about these power wagons.  Im still learning bout the cars though. Like said above its extremely expensive and hard to convert it to part time 4x4, best option in terms of price and easy of install is to go to a junk yard and find a NP 245 series transfer case, should bolt right up to the 727 in you truck.  This transfer case was used starting in the 80s in dodge and ford trucks and until recently, its use was continued even in the diesel trucks in the lat 90s, so finding one shouldnt be hard, might run you 200 bucks and 6 hours of work to complete the swap.  , getting good fuel mileage from the heavy power wagon is about as easy as sovling gobal warming,  best you're going to get especially with the 360 is 8-9, not sure if it was mentioned but you might try swaping gears to 3.55, but its all about the cost vs benefits, you'll spend quite a fortune trying to improve this trucks mileage and at best get 10 mpg, Ultimatley it comes down to how much effort and money you want to put in to it. Again, dont be offended by personal opinions, you're going to get personal opinion i was only trying to tell you what others have said above.  Hope this advice helps you somehow

The only thing he did not mention is that you need a longer drive line in the rear. If you get a T-case out of a truck the same wheelbase as yours, Grab the drive line to.

[74Charger]

Have to love the Power Wagons.  My first truck was a 78' Powerwagon with a NP203 transfer case.  The only problem that I had is that it was chain driven and the chain would stretch causing the four wheek drive not to work properly.  You could hear it click.  Until I got a new chain. 
It was a great truck.  AS mentioned.  It was a heavy bastard.  Do not ever run out of gas and have to try and push it any where.  Mine was a 318 4spd with a 2bbl carb.  I believe I got around 10 mpg.

Over Thanksgiving I got my hands on another Dodge truck 4X4.  My brother had it.  Its a 1982 Power Ram.  Another 318 4spd.  I always wanted another Power Wagon.  I got this truck to fix it up for my  son when he turns 16.  Should be a great truck for him.  Here are some pics.




Good luck with your truck.  I would love to see some pics of it.

[dukeboy_318]

Whats a mrap ?  Got a pic ?

MRAP is what th army is calling the vehicle designed to replace the humvee, stands for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle, its made by international and is huge, ways 5-6 times the wieght of a humvee but supposedly bomb proof, no soldier  has yet to die in Iraq in one according to the pentagon. ill look for a pic

[Todd Wilson]

Whats a mrap ?  Got a pic ?

MRAP is what th army is calling the vehicle designed to replace the humvee, stands for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle, its made by international and is huge, ways 5-6 times the wieght of a humvee but supposedly bomb proof, no soldier  has yet to die in Iraq in one according to the pentagon. ill look for a pic

http://www.defenselink.mil/home/features/2007/mrap/

[Troy]

That appears to be based on an International RXT

Troy

[dukeboy_318]

yep thats it, its looks bulky and combersome, but from what i hear, its the best option available. its offroad capabilties suck, but its not designed for that.

[ACUDANUT]

  If they can blow up a 60,000lbs M1 Abram tank, than that truck won't stand a chance.  The only reason they have not lost one is because noone knows what it is...it's a UFO to the rag heads.

[dukeboy_318]

not to sound like a smart ass, but an ambrams wiegh 75 tons fully fueled and loaded, 68 tons empty. not 60,000 and yes they can blow one up, and destroy it and they have but because of the boat shaped under side, it deflects the full of the blast and the vehile takes it not the passengers, theres a video on youtube on a demo blowing one up, let me find it Iaqis have hit and destroyed several, but no lives have been lost

[ACUDANUT]

Dukeboy, you really like to argue don't ya. BTW 75 tons =150,000lbs.  I see why Crackin stop posting here. 

[dukeboy_318]

no not really, i just dont want people getting wrong info thats all.  Ive been around for a awhile and i think thats one thing most people that have dealt with me know im a down to earth guy that doesnt like to argure very much, just this is one area that i have a lot of expertise in and i like to try to share that if i can in anyway, sorry if i came off rash to anyone, that was not my intention, my intention was to describe the vehicle as best as possible. besides, cracken got an attitude right off the bat, all i did was to try to defend my self with the most accurate information I could give with verifiable sources.  NO hard feelings cracken, though man, i wish you the best in your fight for fuel mileage, seriously try to find a 245 or 241 transfer case, itll help better than hubs,  i did find one yesterday in junkyard nearby for 100 bucks just to give you an idea of what the price might be.  I will try to refrain from posting on this subject anymore as it seems to anger people.  Again, let me appologize to anyone that i may have come off rash about this subject. Have a merry christmas and a good holiday season everyone 

[Todd Wilson]

Dukeboy, you really like to argue don't ya. BTW 75 tons =150,000lbs.  I see why Crackin stop posting here. 

The Abrams is closer to 150g's then it is to 60g's.


Todd

[70kracken]

there's a difference between trying to provide good info and always having to be right.  just constructive critiscism....if no one believes you after you say something and you come back with another answer or story, that's aguing to me.  if you know what's right and what's not that should be good enough for you.  forcing ur opinions and ur knoweldge on someone else and trying to get them to believe you isn't right.  and to be perfectly honest this in one of the main reasons i don't come on here any more.  when you want technical info... you get personal opinion and then it becomes a debate.  i just wanted to know how to, if i could to free the front end up on my truck and now look what were talking about.  two pages of arguing and not even about the truck!

[ACUDANUT]

 Yes, your right. I am sorry. Peace love and the Beatles. 

[68 RT]

Your truck has the np203 case. I had a 78chev fulltime4X4. You can buy the part time conversion from just about any off road place. It does require taking the tailshaft off the t case.
It is not that hard of a job and takes about 2 hours. The kit also comes with lockout hubs. Just changing the hubs won't get you much. My milage before was 10 mpg after the kit around 12-13mpg. Truck did seem to have better acceleration though. Sort of wish I would have left it full time. As I recall kit was around 100.00 this was awhile ago 9-10 years. Hope this helps

Doug

[dukeboy_318]

there's a difference between trying to provide good info and always having to be right.  just constructive critiscism....if no one believes you after you say something and you come back with another answer or story, that's aguing to me.  if you know what's right and what's not that should be good enough for you.  forcing ur opinions and ur knoweldge on someone else and trying to get them to believe you isn't right.  and to be perfectly honest this in one of the main reasons i don't come on here any more.  when you want technical info... you get personal opinion and then it becomes a debate.  i just wanted to know how to, if i could to free the front end up on my truck and now look what were talking about.  two pages of arguing and not even about the truck!

I just told you what many other people also told you, so please do not single me out like that.  also i was not and am not and will not ever try to force my opinions on anyone, you asked if you could see a difference in fuel mileage and like many others agree, you will not see a big enough one to justify the money.  Also as many others as agreed, while i love power wagons, they are not and will never be fuel mileage vehicles.  I too own one and would never get rid of it,regardless of how high gas is, ill just drive it less, i under stand living on a budget, theres some members on here that know that.  Again, i meant no disrepect nor was it my intention to try to force you into accepting my opinion.  I also tried to give you technical advice and you also shot it down.  So maybe i am arguing some, but 70kracken so are you and you also need to be aware that when you ask a question like that, you will get alot of opinion based technical advice becasue you are basicly asking someone if they have heard of or tried this  and if they think it will help.  I myself have asked a lot of tech questions and alot of what i got is opinons, but that just helps to make my descision because maybe just maybe someone has tried it before and may or may not advise another person try it.  To all who are offended by my defensive posture, i appologize.  I know i said that i would not post here again, but i will not sit back and be verbually assualted and bashed as i have from the beginning by 70kracken just for trying to help a guy out.  I tried to keep an open mind on 70kracken and even tried to explain myself better.  I was not the only one who posted a personal opinion and yet he wants to continue to bash me.  I love this site and with the exception of one or two people on here, i enjoy reading what everyone has to say and love learning more about this hobby,  it is people like 70kracken who havea bad attitude from the start that ruin this enjoyment for all. As for constructive critisim, kracken you have had an attitude from the begining, for what reason, i dont know and will never know, but you too need to have some humility as well, and realize that iwas just trying to helpyou save time and money as i stated before, ive been into 4x4s for abotu 7 yrs and have built some impressive ones that have done very well at the 4wheel drive jamboree in Indianapolis, and have also seen just about everything tried on these vehicles by my friends and family, so please quit bashing me for trying to help you out, its your money try whatever you want to try, im not going to be the one upset when i only see .5 to 1 mpg increase in the city and maybe 2 on the highway and it takes several fill ups to pay for itself. Having been on this site and the old one since 2005, this is the first time ive argued and had to defend myself like this and that makes be very disappointed


attached is a picture of my 78 before i repainted it, 360 bored over .45, and stroked to 408, holleye 700 cfm 4150 carb sitting on a edledbrock performer rpm intake, I cant remember the cam, but its barely produces enough vaccum to run the brakes, 2.25 inch true dual exhaust coming out of a 3inch collector, backed by a beefed up 4spd trans, dana 60 rearend, 44 front, 4.56 gears, uncapped on the dyno, motor turned 430 hp and 450 ft lbs of torque, gets roughly 7 mpg highway 5 city.  This truck was built to pull and win truck pulling contests. 

[squeakfinder]

I used a Warn kit to convert my 78 Jimmy quite few years ago. I can't say it did anything for fuel milage but, it certainly handles better with the hubs unlocked.

This kit, I think is a little different than the Warn......


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Process-203-Transfer-Case-4X4-4X2-Conversion-Kit_W0QQitemZ270189287701QQihZ017QQcategoryZ33727QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem                         
It looks like you have buy the hubs separate with the above kit.

It's been a long time since I filled the 35 gallon tank to check millage, last time it was 10 mpg around town and 12 om the highway with a tailwind. The only reason I mention this is that your Powere Wagon is about as aerodynamic.

And probably about the same weight...if it's not, I'm sure dukeboy 318 will correct me..

[70kracken]

he's arguing again........i'm so sorry i stand down......you know everything, i know nothing, ur right, i'm wrong.  just drop it now.  all you have to do is post something else so you have the last word.  i'm done

[BMOTOXSTAR]

 

[NMike]

you can't just install the front locking hubs on a pre-81 dodge truck. all the dana 44 axles used that POS large bearing design. the locking hubs are for the newer style that is found on chev's and later dodges.

BTW the early trucks have the same bolt pattern as the cars. the 81-up 4X4 trucks switched to the ford 5x5 1/2 bolt pattern.

what ever you decide on, remember the bolt pattern differences.

i changed the ones on my truck to real axles from a cummins truck. straight bolt in, just need the dana 60 spring plates to hang the front axle on the OEM springs. Chev 60's are nearly identical to the dodge except they are an inch or two different in width. the rest of the axles, (brakes, bearings, gears) are all the same as the dodge

PS, if you do the T-case swap, there is a difference between auto and STD T-cases. plus there are 20 differnent drive shafts.

front is different if it is dana 44, dana 60, auto or standard
rear is different for dana 44, dana 60, auto, standard, long box, short box, extended cab, crew cab ETC...

[Chryco Psycho]

Your truck has the np203 case. I had a 78chev fulltime4X4. You can buy the part time conversion from just about any off road place. It does require taking the tailshaft off the t case.
It is not that hard of a job and takes about 2 hours. The kit also comes with lockout hubs. Just changing the hubs won't get you much. My milage before was 10 mpg after the kit around 12-13mpg. Truck did seem to have better acceleration though. Sort of wish I would have left it full time. As I recall kit was around 100.00 this was awhile ago 9-10 years. Hope this helps

Doug

This is exactly what I had to do on my 70s Dodge truck , it had the 203 chian type transfer case & I installed Dana 60 front & rear diffs

[firefighter3931]

he's arguing again........i'm so sorry i stand down......you know everything, i know nothing, ur right, i'm wrong.  just drop it now.  all you have to do is post something else so you have the last word.  i'm done

I don't get it....the guy apologizes and you continue to insult him.   


There's no pleasing some people 



Ron