Charger 500 / Daytona Rear Window Plug Removal - Any Experience?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

As some of you know, I am just starting the restoration of my Charger 500.  Even though the quarter panels look fairly decent compared to many that I have seen, the decision has been made to replace the quarter panels with the "exact" reproduction full quarter panels made by Classic Body Designs.

To replace the quarter panels requires removal of the rear window plug so carefully installed by Creative Industries when they did the conversion for Chrysler...

Anyone on this forum have experience in removing an original plug, or can put me in contact with someone that has done it?  I am going to go have a close look at the plug installation on Friday and take a lot of pictures.  From what I remember, the plug was installed by notching the drip tray on both sides of the trunk opening... then welding at the notches, spot welding all around the plug, and even spot welding to the original Dutchman panel.  The joints were all leaded I believe...

As I said earlier, I will try to get better pictures on Friday.  Any pictures of a plug being removed, or even a plug after removal would be of great help to me!

Here are the best pictures that I could find in the ones that I have already taken...

THANKS FOR ANY HELP!

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Four more pictures...

[arrow]

they are pretty easy to remove , melt the lead out and cut the spot welds

[UFO]

This is the only pic I have.
From a 500.

[Magnumcharger]

I know a person who has done exactly that.
Joey Steckler from Joey's place restorations.
You might have seen the threads I ran here on the restoration of a green Hemi 500 up here in Edmonton Alberta, Canada.
http://www.joeysplace.com/

email: joey@joeysplace.com

http://www.joeysplace.com/cgi-bin/newsletter/newsletter.cgi?db=default&sb=1&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Thanks for the input and picture guys!  I have been a bit concerned about damaging the plug during removal... guess I just needed a little   

I still plan to take a lot of pictures, and will probably know a lot more about the subject in a month or so...   

Allen

[Highbanked Hauler]

 Should you decide to lead the quarter to the roof seam and the plug also you will use 20 pounds of lead or more. quarter pound sticks of lead don't go very far. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Should you decide to lead the quarter to the roof seam and the plug also you will use 20 pounds of lead or more. quarter pound sticks of lead don't go very far. 

Thanks!  That is just the sort of info that I need, I am trying to line up someone to do the lead work on-site at the body shop...

Allen

[69_500]

If it was up to me personally I'd stay away from leading it back in when reinstalling it. I'd go more for the welding it in, and grinding off the welds to make them smooth. Just my thoughts. I think that is what they did on Gene's car, and it is coming along pretty darn well.

[hotrod98]

On our resto work, we've started filling seams and welded areas with JB Industro Weld. It has to dry overnight before being sanded, but once it has set up, it will have shrank as much as it ever will. I welded the fender gill plates into the fenders on my wife's cuda and there has been absolutely no shrinkage at the welds since completing the car 3 years ago.
I'm helping a friend with his new paint store part time and we sell a lot of JB to local restoration shops.
JB has to be topcoated with a polyester glaze and sanded before applying primers.
It's a lot safer, quicker and cheaper than using lead.

[Magnumcharger]

http://jbweld.net/products/industro.php

http://www.builderdepot.com/seo/JBWELDCOMPANY_BM/206363_8280_J-B_INDUSTRO_WELD.ihtml

[arrow]

If it was up to me personally I'd stay away from leading it back in when reinstalling it. I'd go more for the welding it in, and grinding off the welds to make them smooth. Just my thoughts. I think that is what they did on Gene's car, and it is coming along pretty darn well.

Danny , thats real good advice - it wont take much filler when doing that . I usually use lead on most of my body work , but for health reasons , I and everyone else should stop .East Woods is selling new leadless body solder . I might try after I run out of lead .

[hotrod98]

We had a customer that insisted on using lead in his 55 chevy so we ordered the leadless body solder kit from Eastwood. Either we didn't know how to use it or it was junk. Would not melt very easy and didn't want to lay in real well. You might have better luck with it though.

[daytonalo]

I have always dug out all lead and weld seam solid , grind and short or long hair filler .

[Highbanked Hauler]

We had a customer that insisted on using lead in his 55 chevy so we ordered the leadless body solder kit from Eastwood. Either we didn't know how to use it or it was junk. Would not melt very easy and didn't want to lay in real well. You might have better luck with it though.

   When I did mine it was in 1983 and the box of lead i got had been sitting on somebody's shelf for years. I think it  was a mix of 30% tin 70% lead and you probably can't get it anymore if  they sent you  leadless body solder kit which I know nothing about. When you got the temperature right the lead was about the consistency of wheel bearing grease and works quite easily.  As someone said there products out now that do a quality job so why use costly  antiquated system.

[hemigeno]

I had talked with Vance Cummins about lead a while back.  He said that the lead used at the assembly plant (like on the quarter-to-roof seam) had a much higher melting point, and was "much better" than the grade used by Creative Industries.  Hamtramck's was harder to work with due to the higher heat involved, but it finished out nicer.  Creative essentially used the cheap stuff, which contributed to the poor finished look and even cracking of that area.

Figures   

Vance does have a big supply of both types of lead used, but he doesn't use it on an all-out restoration.

I'd echo what Danny & Larry have already said.  Weld it up solid and don't mess with the lead at all.  No worries, then.

[Magnumcharger]

Check this thread for some good example pictures of a welded-in plug:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,15508.0.html

[gtx6970]

weld it in.
Get a good welder/metal man and it will not need filler

[hotrod98]

weld it in.
Get a good welder/metal man and it will not need filler

You are kidding..right?
There is no way in hell that anyone could weld that relatively thin panel into place and not need at least some filler. I've been in the bodyshop business for 30 years and I've never met anyone that good. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Thanks for all the suggestions and information.  I am very hesitant to fully weld the plug in.  While it would work out great initially, I am concerned that if the car ever took a hit hard enough to wipe out a quarter panel, the repair options would be more limited without the ability to easily remove the plug for replacement of the quarter panel.

I plan to drive this car quite a bit, and know several neat mopars that have gotten hit hard on the street in the last 10-15 years... Superbird, Hemi `Cuda, (2) 440-6 `Cudas, Etc.

I am still leaning to doing the re-leading, but will investigate the other more modern methods mentioned.  Doing it the "original" way is not the reason that I was considering leading the plug in, I want to do it the way that yields great results, but does not limit future repair options...

In fact, I hope to do the C500 a lot different than Creative Industries did!

More suggestions & information would be appreciated.  Specific names of modern filler systems would be helpful for my research.  If I can find a modern method known to be as good as leading, I will go with it.  Anyone one ever use Marine Tex? A Dallas area restoration shop swears by it, but they generally don't do very good work... soooooooo

Google it: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=marine+tex

I have a good friend that has worked at GM-Arlington for about 25 years, I will talk to him as well...

Thanks again,

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Check this thread for some good example pictures of a welded-in plug:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,15508.0.html

Great pictures... Thanks Robin!

Allen

[daytonalo]

NO FILLER AT ALL ? NOT IN THIS LIFETIME

[Highbanked Hauler]

  Wait till you get the lead melted out.The plug in mine had  SIX welds to hold it in place while the lead held it on the car and you should find filler with the most being on the roof at the plug seam.Been there, done that. I only wish I had the pictures to prove it.

[69_500]

Allen just for wondering, but why remove the plug anyways? Just curious. I would think you could leave it in the car, dig out the lead but leave it spot welded in. Then do more spot welding, or weld it up solid, or lead it back in. Just curious why you are taking it out?

[hotrod98]

I was thinking the same thing myself. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen just for wondering, but why remove the plug anyways? Just curious. I would think you could leave it in the car, dig out the lead but leave it spot welded in. Then do more spot welding, or weld it up solid, or lead it back in. Just curious why you are taking it out?

That would mean cutting up the full quarter panels, essentially making repair panels out of them.  I want to replace the quarter at the factory seams!  That is why I antied up the $$$$$$$$$ to get the full panels instead of the much cheaper partial quarter panels which have been available for years.  Welding the partial quarters on and completely hiding the seams is labor intensive... then there is the risk of warpage during extensive welding!

Additionally, with the plug out, rust can more readily found and stopped... no surprises 5-10 years down the road.

[69_500]

Hmmm, so your wanting to have the same seam as the factory did on the C pillar. Makes sense. I was just curious.

[hotrod98]

Sounds like a solid plan. If I lived nearby, I'd be there to help with what sounds like a cool project. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Sounds like a solid plan. If I lived nearby, I'd be there to help with what sounds like a cool project. 

I wish you were closer too...  When your new shop is fully operational, and I recover from the C500 money pit, I may talk to you about doing one of my other cars.

Allen

[hotrod98]

Sounds good.  If I can ever get that darn paint booth assembled...I thought it was going to be simple. Fooled me. Four days now and it's still only half finished. 
I'm anxious to start on MoparStuart's back glass project. Just a few more days. Also, we should be back on Howie's nascar daytona clone by next summer. Things are going to start going a lot faster now that I have a larger shop to work out of.

[hotrod98]

If I still lived in Grand Prairie, we'd practically be neighbors. My wife worked in downtown Fort Worth, but my office was over at Mockingbird and Stemmons Frwy in Dallas. We really miss living in the DFW area. It's nice and quiet here in the hills, but there's not a lot going on as far as excitement. I may try to get with you next year and check out your hotrods. We've been talking about running down to your part of the world. My wife's had a craving for the shrimp ettouffe at Poppadeaux and the lasagna and sourdough bread at Spaghetti Warehouse.
Here's a couple of pics of the booth as it sits right now.

[Highbanked Hauler]

Hot Rod, just curious, what paint line do you, or are you going to use? Beautiful shop by the way,

[BigBlockSam]

 

[hotrod98]

Hot Rod, just curious, what paint line do you, or are you going to use? Beautiful shop by the way,

For the last nine years I've been using PPG DBC basecoat and Concept single stage. I've also used Sherwin-Williams Sunfire Urethane for the chassis, engine, suspension and even a flattened version for the semi gloss areas since it's so durable. However, I'll start using Pro Spray now which is a European finish that is identical to the old ICI Autocolor now known as PPG-NEXA. I work in outside sales part time for a friend of mine at his automotive paint store and can buy everything at his cost. Kind of works out well for me. We also sell an exact copy of the PPG DBC system made by a company by the name of Matrix. It's much cheaper than the real stuff and seems to work just as well. We can even use their mixing formulas on our intermix system. It's that close...even the toners have a similar number.
I've been debating as to whether to install an intemix system or not. The upside is mixing the paint whenever I need it, even late at night or on weekends. The downside is having to keep the toners well stirred and fresh. Once toners have been opened and put on the mixing bank, they tend to age a little faster with the mixing lids than when they were tightly sealed with a solid lid. Of course the biggest issue is the cost of the system to begin with. I'm not a high production shop so the paint company certainly wouldn't co-op the cost of the system with me.
Thanks for the compliment on the shop. It's coming along slowly. I still have equipment in the front shop that needs to be brought to the back shop. The old shop is pretty much used for storing the racecar and the hotrods now.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry about that.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry about that.

Educational hijacks like yours are very welcome & appreciated!  Most hijacks are much less useful... I would give an example, but it would probably start a hijack of this thread... 

HH was absolutely right... AWESOME SHOP! 

Allen

[daytonalo]

I love HOK # 51 

[hotrod98]

My House of Kolor book has it listed as HOK PBC31 over white base. Sunset Pearl  I can't seem to get that shade in Pro Spray base/clear even with the Xirillic pearls. Keeps coming out too much like PBC48 Cinnamon pearl.
I'll keep trying but I think you're best bet is to let me create it in a three stage. It just uses a bright white base. I can get it for you for much much less than the price of HOK and it will be easy to shoot. No tricky lacquer bases with urethane midcoats and that hard to shoot clear. Never was much of a fan of HOK.
I can re-create pretty much any of the HOK color colors in Matrix. 

[daytonalo]

Thanks ! What do you think of BASF ? We are about to switch to them after 20 years of Sikkens .

[Charger-Bodie]

Thanks ! What do you think of BASF ? We are about to switch to them after 20 years of Sikkens .

Just out of curiousity, Why would you switch from Sikkens?

Sorry to hi-jack

[daytonalo]

We had a rep from BASF over all week , much simpler formulas and after spraying it , we think it looks better . All of the OEM use it , we are too.

Larry

[Charger-Bodie]

We had a rep from BASF over all week , much simpler formulas and after spraying it , we think it looks better . All of the OEM use it , we are too.

Larry

Sounds like you had a good saleman anyway!!   All of the OEM use it.....

[daytonalo]

Basf is also glassrit[ not sure on how that is spelled ]

[Highbanked Hauler]

Thanks ! What do you think of BASF ? We are about to switch to them after 20 years of Sikkens .

Just out of curiousity, Why would you switch from Sikkens?

Sorry to hi-jack

      Paint companies are like banks buying each other up. Its hard to tell who owns who now.

[daytonalo]

I don't fall for sales BS !!! My partner paints full time for Volvo , loves Sikkens , but the more he finds out about BASF , he likes it .

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Basf is also glassrit[ not sure on how that is spelled ]

The best looking paint jobs that I have ever seen were done with Glasurit... IMO

http://www.glasurit.com.au/

BUT, I have been told by a professional painter that the equipment and technique required are somewhat different to get that look.  Are they going to provide training, etc ?

XS

[daytonalo]

From spending all week with them ,[BASF]my friend informs me that sikkens system is much more complex !

[hotrod98]

I sold BASF Diamont and Glasurit back in the 90's. The BASF reps were very nice until after I signed the bottom line and then they turned into the biggest jerks that I've ever dealt with.
They were arrogant to my customers and never once fulfilled a single promise that they had made. Their tactic is to switch reps on you after you've signed on and then basically deny that any of the promises had actually been made. They even sent me the wrong mixing banks and never corrected it. They just didn't care.
I had a lot of trouble with their polyester basecoat system and they wouldn't admit any problems. Just left my customers with big problems. If you don't do everything exactly right, the clearcoat won't stay on. And, their color match wasn't one bit better than SW.
I would much rather use Sikkens than BASF...any day. No question. I've been told that Sikkens has finally corrected their problem with recoat sensitivity. Not sure.
However, even Sikkens has been Americanized and is no where near as good as it was 15 years ago. In fact all of the European systems have suffered. Standox was marketed in the U.S. by Sherwin-Williams as American Standox. They started making the solvents and hardeners in the U.S. to save money and it went downhill fast. They were then taken on by Dupont and have never recovered. Most of the Standox shops in this area eventually switched to Sikkens.
Spies-hecker is basically the same thing as Standox. Many of their toners are identical.
If you want my opinion, there's very little difference in quality when it comes to basecoat as long as you use a premium system. Since opening this new paint store here one year ago, we've taken over a third of the business in this area with two lines, Pro Spray and Matrix. In my opinion, they're just as good as any of the other systems out there and cost at least a third less. They don't spend billions on sponsoring big name racecars or other high dollar advertising.
As for which big name brand I would use...hands down it would be PPG. You can correct any painter induced problems in the sealer or basecoat by sanding with their DX330 and then recoating. We can do the same thing with Matrix using the DX330. No more costly rework.  I haven't tried it with Pro Spray yet.
PPG's 2021 clear will stay open long enough to buff it out and then it locks up for durability. Other company's clears either lock up immediately or stay soft forever. Not good for a showcar.
Dupont is probably a little better product than PPG but is much more costly no matter what Dupont tells you. If you have a problem with PPG at least someone will try to help you rather than look down their nose at you and tell you that you (the painter) must have done something wrong.

[daytonalo]

My friend is been painting for 20 years and only with Sikkens , he must really like it to switch . He said with bASF you can sand the basecoat in minutes , sikkens you have to wait much longer . He painted several Volvo's this week and informs me he noticed a big difference all around .

Larry

[Charger-Bodie]

 Easier doesnt allways mean better!!

[daytonalo]

I thought I mentioned he liked the cars he painted with BASF over the Sikkens he used in the last 20 years . I'm not he painter in our business , he is , I only go with what he tells me . I will tell him all my members in DC think BASF is junk , by the way can I ask you how many years you have painted professionally ?

[hotrod98]

BASF does dry faster. Think about it...that's not a good thing. Causes poor adhesion. Wait until the cars start coming back with the clear de-laminating. We had so much trouble, I just moved the mixing bank to the warehouse and quit selling it altogether. That company cost me a lot of money and I won't forget it.
Your buddy will probably go back to Sikkens eventually.
What does he not like about PPG? I've never had a problem with any car that I've ever painted and I've shot a lot of them. I see a lot of them at car shows that I painted nine or ten years ago and they look great. Most of them are still winning trophies.
In my career, I've shot PPG, Sherwin-Williams, Sikkens, Standox, Spies-Hecker, Dupont, ICI, Pro Spray, Matrix, SW Sunfire, Dupont Imron, Diamont, Glasurit, Nasson and R-M and the only products that I would even consider shooting today are PPG, Matrix and Pro Spray. I would shoot SW Sunfire but no one carries it. They're phasing it out since it no longer meets the VOC requirements.

[daytonalo]

I know you know your s*it 

[Charger-Bodie]

I thought I mentioned he liked the cars he painted with BASF over the Sikkens he used in the last 20 years . I'm not he painter in our business , he is , I only go with what he tells me . I will tell him all my members in DC think BASF is junk , by the way can I ask you how many years you have painted professionally ?

      18 years pro. ...grew up in my dads body shop painted a complete for the first time when i was 11 on a step stool ..it was single stage deltron (dau)........ive sprayed all of them some and sikkens is the best match and durability ive used hands down

[daytonalo]

Make no mistake , we love Sikkens!!! They are very , very expensive . He is looking at his options .

Larry

[Charger-Bodie]

Make no mistake , we love Sikkens!!! They are very , very expensive . He is looking at his options .

Larry

have you considered lesonal? the cheaper akzo product....

[daytonalo]

We have been using that for years ! Again we love Sikkens , we are simply exploring other avenues !

[BigBlockSam]

i used Diamont on my charger .went on well . some of those other paints get crazy expensive . Rene

[hotrod98]

Diamont and Glasurit are the same chemistry...polyester. Both are BASF products.

[Highbanked Hauler]

How many of you have had a front  bumper cover changed on your high end European or Asian car lately?? and  the first time you wax it you find it full of stone chips?  That is where the quality of the better  paint shows up, ease of application, gloss retention and durability and keep the V.O.C  Volatile Organtic Compound  or emissions below a certain level.

    This is hijacking and I do apologise.

[daytonalo]

Larry , do you think Glasurit is garbage ? I thought many of high end cars use that System ? By the way , high end as in German

[hotrod98]

Most of the high end systems out there are german. In fact PPG which was originally named Ditzler is german.
Most of the durability is in the clearcoat, not the basecoat. The best clear out there uses the new scratch resistant (nano) technology.  It's around $300 a gallon and not very practical to use in a collision repair facility considering that the insurance companies usually allow less then a fourth that much in materials on their estimates.
Also, remember that the paint refinish that they use at the factory is rarely the same as sold to the repair shops. Many of the factories use a system that mixes the end product at the nozzle. Some systems even use an amine gas which causes the catylization. At a quarter of a mill per machine, not many body shops would be using an amine gas system.
I'm not saying that Glasurit is garbage, I'm just saying that it would not be my choice for a system for a repair facility unless you're only (or mostly) repairing cars that had Glasurit on them from the factory. For instance, Navistar dealers should use Sikkens since as far as I know, all of their trucks are still shot with Sikkins. 
When I managed the body shop at the Volvo truck dealership, we used Sherwin-Williams Sunfire because Volvo was shooting them with Sunfire at the time. They have since switched to Dupont Imron as of 2002 or 2003.
Bottom line...I would never consider using Glasurit myself. Maybe it's right for some guys. Just not for me.
In fact, thanks to the tightwad insurance companies, more and more shops are switching to the less expensive lines like Matrix and Pro Spray. There are others, but these are the two that I sell.
Final thought...My '71 Cuda has single stage Standox (german paint) on it and it isn't one bit better than PPG Concept. But it did cost twice as much so I guess it should have been better.

[BigBlockSam]

sorry about the hijack. what do you think of this deal . $199. for all the paint material. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Viper-Blue-Pearl-URETHANE-BASECOAT-CLEAR-Car-Auto-Paint_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ63702QQihZ010QQitemZ200184689085QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[xs29j8Bullitt]

We have plug removal experience now!  The C500 rear window plug was removed without a problem... 

Now back to the hi-jack of the hi-jack of the........... 

Good discussion BTW, I  am trying to get up to speed on paint differences as well.  The painter mentioned that he could use Matrix to save on the cost of the materials, but I am leaning to go with the "name brand"... thoughts?  Teach me Obe-Wan(s)!!! 

Allen

[daytonalo]

Could you please post some pics of the plug edges ? Always wanted to see if the edges were bent 90 degrees


Larry

[hotrod98]

On a one time deal, by all means go with a name brand refinish. On one vehicle you're not talking about a lot of difference in cost. I tend to think more along the lines of cost associated with repair facilities where a little cost difference can add up.
I always suggest that when having a car painted stay with the brand that your painter is familiar with. You don't want the guy experimenting with a new system on your car.

Now...how about a couple of pics of the edges of that plug.

[daytonalo]

Money is not an issue , I only do things one time !

[BigBlockSam]

stay with the brand that your painter is familiar   

  thats why i used the paint i did . thats what my painter used at the body shop he worked at  and he was happy with it . Rene

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Could you please post some pics of the plug edges ? Always wanted to see if the edges were bent 90 degrees


Larry

The edges are not bent 90 degrees, but there is a seperate 90 degree angle that is screwed to the inside of the sail panel to provide a landing for the flat edge of the plug.  There are several parts tack-welded to the lower side of the plug, including the "sawteeth" for attaching the headliner.

Basically a section cut through the plug would show a "flat" (except for contour) panel with an offset flange recess for the rear window & gasket.  The end that attaches to the sail panel lays on the seperate "L" angle mounted upside down with sheetmetal screws to the inboard side of the Charger's sail panel, offset enough to allow the OML of the plug panel to lie flush with the OML surface (edge) of the sail panel.

Check out the pictures below... if needed, I can provide a sketch.

Allen

[Highbanked Hauler]

That is what i was saying before, you have that little "support" screwed to the sail panels. On mine there was 6 welds holding the plug to the support flange  except where the plug welds to the drip rails on each side and the lead holds the rest of the plug to the body and fills in the gap.