All I want for Xmas is some HOOK!

[Hemidoug]

OK...so here's the deal....After putting together a "new" motor for the Hemi car one thing became apparent...the car doesn't hook worth a dam! So...... one of my biggest goals this winter is to get the suspension straightened out to handle my combo.  The engine is putting out around 600 hp going through an 833 and 4:10s in the Dana. I'm running 295 50 15 BF Goodrich radials in the rear and pretty much fry them at will. First is completely useless at WOT and I can get second to catch if I back pedal. Right now I know I have to replace the springs, they're bent up pretty good as well as on my third pinion snubber. I plan on checking/correcting pinion angle when I install the new springs.

So, what's a guy to do to get a street setup to hook? I'd need to keep the car streetable but yet get some bite at the track. Right now running the car at a track is just a giant waist of time.  I am considering the SS springs, but not looking forward to changing the cars ride height. Obviously a set of slicks would help out at the track.

So what's a good combo (tires/spring/shock/other tricks) for a 600 HP 3800 lbs car to get some hook? I'd really like to see what this car can do besides fry tires........

[Ghoste]

A lot of people seem to like the Cal-Tracs.    I do think that if you are running BFG Radial TA's that it's a big bottleneck in your program.  They look good but my experience has been that they are a little more slippery than some other choices.

[mally69]

I also have read that cal-tracs are good with weaker springs. I am going to use SS springs when i install my 512 into my charger..   I am also interested in hearing about this

[Hemidoug]

Yea Ghost...I know tires are a big part but the rest of my setup needs a good going over as well. I plan on getting a good set of slicks this year, but I want to get everything working together at the same time. I actually put an "S" bend in the springs, as well as broke 2 pinion snubbers.........If I just put a set of tires on it with more bite I'd rip that Dana right out of the car....That would be a little messy....

[Ghoste]

Do you frame connectors?

[Hemidoug]

Do you frame connectors?

Well...that's the other problem....The car is an original Hemi car so whatever I do I don't want to leave a mark.......frame connectors would leave a mark! I also suspect the car will go fast enough to need a rollbar....Ain't no WAY that's gonna happen......

[Ghoste]

An original silver Hemi four speed 69?  Now I hate you even more.   I think you'll either have to go to the SS springs or the Cal-Tracs.  That or put a restrictor plate on it. 

[Charger-Bodie]

how much track time will it see?

[Hemidoug]

how much track time will it see?

Just once in a while, nothing major. I figure that if I can get it to hook at the track it will also hook in the street (better then it does now anyway). I just want to have some fun with the car. Frying tires is fun but it gets a little old after a while. I want to see what this thing is capable of.....

[Charger-Bodie]

well, I have a friend with a 440+6 70rr and hes done a few things to make his hook up better without straying too far from stock it has: 1.clamped xhd rear springs
2 adjs pinion snubber
3.light shocks and 318 t- bars in front
4.light shocks in front
5.front sway bar unhooked
6.drag shocks in rear
7.he also had bfg radial t/a tires and he said it was a pig with them. he bought a set of repop polyglass and it hooks up WAY better!!

[gtx6970]

You might want to talk to the guys in the fast racing series

[Charger-Bodie]

You might want to talk to the guys in the fast racing series

Thats actually where my buddy got alot of this info as he is working toward just that.

[joflaig]

This is a great topic, I know I'll be wondering the same thing next spring after my 517 goes in. Since my setup will also be mainly street I'm not interested in pro-stock type mods. Yeah it would be nice to run slicks on the times at the track, but I too am a bit worried about blowing up my rear end.

[Ghoste]

What are you running for a rearend?

[joflaig]

What are you running for a rearend?

stock 8 3/4...and stock springs and AIR shocks... gears will go to 3.55 from 3.23

[Ghoste]

Without getting too off topic, I woud seriously think about a Dana upgrade after you drop in the 517.  Just one mans opinion though.

[NMike]

nevermond. i gots to go bak to skule 4 more laernin bout reedin

[firefighter3931]

Doug, i went with the SS springs and drag shocks front/back. The Comp Engineering shocks work pretty good. The key to keeping the rear tires from unloading is setting the pinion angle. It needs to be 6-7* nose down...this is critical ! 

The MT drag radials are much better than the BFG d/r's and hook awesome.  Take a look at the pic....this is an MT drag radial that is a dot legal tire...the car ran mid 9's and 60ft'd in the low 1.30's which is killer for a street car ! 

I would strongly consider some frame connectors....The US Cartool connectors look like they were designed by the factory. Basicly they folloe the contours of the floorpan and weld up to it. This is how these cars should have been made from the factory. 

These along with a set of torque boxes should do the trick and keep you from tearing sheetmatel when the big dog hooks hard. 


The pinion snubber becomes obsolete with SS springs....you won't be needing it. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

Problem is that once you start to hook, you'll start spewing clutches (or U-joints).

Got to have some slip somewhere in the driveline.

I was happy with the SLide-A-Link I installed on my Charger. That along with Nitto Drag Radials was about as much "hook" as I wanted to funnel through my 8.75 rear, and Keisler-supplied clutch.

[Hemidoug]

Thanks guys!

Ron...no can do on the frame connectors....one rule I won't break is cutting an original Hemi car...just not going to butcher the car to go fast. If I have to go that far for hook, I'll de-tune the motor. She already has the torque boxes installed from the day she was born....

I think I have a plan...I've ordered new OEM springs from Mopar Performance, next will be a set of Cal Tracks  followed by some quality shocks .....more on that at a later date. Since I've got to get new tires anyway, I'll go with the MT drag radials. I think that will be a good start anyway.....

[mally69]

without some kind of strengthening to the body with that kind of power  you might just end up with a nice wrinkle in the roof or doors that wont like to shut

[Hemidoug]

without some kind of strengthening to the body with that kind of power  you might just end up with a nice wrinkle in the roof or doors that wont like to shut

I don't plan on dropping the clutch at 4000 RPM off the line! I'll feather it and roll into the throttle comming out of the hole. My problem is that even if I do that now she lights 'em up on a roll. Second isn't any better....I've got to do some serious back peddling to get any traction before third. I'll still be taking it easy on her, but I want to achieve traction at SOME point in first...right now I've got none. The car just spins till third gear. There has to be a happy medium at some point....

[firefighter3931]

Doug have you seen pics of the US cartool connecors installed ? Lots of guys with high end cars are using them and they look like a factory installed piece.  I'm gonna use a set on my 70 6-pack charger at some point. 


US Cartool website :

http://www.uscartool.com/Bframeconn/index.html


Ron


Some pics of the install ;

[mally69]

Ron,  those thing's look great, I never knew they made such a thing, i am defintaly going to get a set of those. Good thing your around here to fill people in on stuff like these   

[Hemidoug]

Ron,
I agree, they are nice! I just have this thing about making ANY mods to it that a wrench can't make right......That's where the clone guys have it all over the "original" cars.....I really don't own my cars, I'm just a caretaker...someday (hopefully) my cars will out live me. I want them to be correct and true when they move onto the next caretaker.....maybe I'm just weird but that's how I feel about the iron in my garage....besides, I built the Hemi car to be a street car. The theme of the 69, if you will, is to remain as close to stock as possible but yet have some "subtle" changes for performance and comfort. When you look at the car none of the "upgrades" I've done to it stand out...you have to do some digging (with exception of the big red button on the gear shift) before you start to notice "stuff".  Again, if I have to go that far to go fast, I'll just take some HP out of the motor. Who knows......I've still got a certain 65 Satellite (which IS going to be a race car) that will need a motor someday. I'm still holding out hope that I might stumble on to the numbers motor for the 69 someday. If that day ever comes, it will be a whole nother ball game for the Hemi car....In the meantime I still want to have SOME fun with her.

[firefighter3931]

Doug, i can appreciate what you're saying.  I'd just hate to see you twist up that beautiful car and start tearing sheetmetal.  Once they start hooking good.... stuff happens 

That would be cool if you could find the #'s block for your car 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron,  those thing's look great, I never knew they made such a thing, i am defintaly going to get a set of those. Good thing your around here to fill people in on stuff like these   

They look good huh !  Honestly, i can't see any reason not to use them....stock look, better handleing and cleaner launches...even with street tires. These cars weren't made for 500+ hp engines and the unibody is a weak point....anything you do to stiffen the car up is a huge bonus. 



Ron

[Hemidoug]

Ron,  those thing's look great, I never knew they made such a thing, i am defintaly going to get a set of those. Good thing your around here to fill people in on stuff like these   

They look good huh !  Honestly, i can't see any reason not to use them....stock look, better handleing and cleaner launches...even with street tires. These cars weren't made for 500+ hp engines and the unibody is a weak point....anything you do to stiffen the car up is a huge bonus. 



Ron

Ron,
I do agree with you on everything you have said. I don't want to ruin the car ether way.....I just think if I go easy on the launch/shifting I can get away with it. If it is too hard on the car I can always go to a different tire to soften things up a bit. To tell you the truth, I'd be happy to get just a little more bite then I have now. Even if I can get it to grab after just a little spin it would be an improvement. I'm not looking to pull the wheels and stand the thing on it's bumper, but right now I can't even get to half throttle without wheel spin......Even with the wheel spin and peddling I get to 80 MPH in a 10th of a mile or less (top of third)....the thing is a Brute for sure!

[firefighter3931]

Doug, the stiffer leaf springs or caltracs along with a good drag radial will work wonders in the traction department. 

On the US cartool connectors ; i don't see them as ruining the car....just an improvement that should have been done at the factory. Everybody has their own tolerance level as to what they consider acceptable so no criticism here. 

Fwiw, the caltracs ride very harsh on the street...the SS springs would be my first choice in your situation. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

Once nice thing about a Slide-A-Link vs Cal-Tracs, is that the Slide-A-Link can easily be backed off for street use.

[Ghoste]

I thought they could both be backed off easily?

[firefighter3931]

I thought they could both be backed off easily?

They both can.... but that sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it.    Both the CE sliders and Caltracs need to be preloaded to work effectively. 

With SS springs you're allways ready to go as long as you have the right tires (MT d/r's) 



Ron

[Ghoste]

I suppose it depends on the spring rate in the car and it's primary useage.

[Hemidoug]

Well step one was completed today. Just got my new "restoration" springs from Mopar performance. Nice springs! Paid 200 for the set. Next up....Caltracks....

[firefighter3931]

Well step one was completed today. Just got my new "restoration" springs from Mopar performance. Nice springs! Paid 200 for the set. Next up....Caltracks....

Doug, you got the xhd springs correct ? 


Ron

[Hemidoug]

I got the "correct" Hemi springs for 66-70 B body....not sure if that is the XHD spring you are taking about....I'll post pics and PN later.....

[firefighter3931]

I got the "correct" Hemi springs for 66-70 B body....not sure if that is the XHD spring you are taking about....I'll post pics and PN later.....

Doug, those are probably the xhd springs with an extra leaf on the passenger side. I had a set on the 68 before i went with the SS springs...they are nice ! 

Those (XHD) springs will be going on my 70 R/T to replace the sagging azz originals. 


Post the pn's when you get a chance. 


Ron


Ps. A buddy used the xhd's with a set of Caltracs on his Cuda and they work great...in case you were wondering. The car 60ft's in the low 1.60's and hooks like a monster. 

[joflaig]

This thread allong with 471 Magnum's (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,21844.0.html) have really been helpful! Instead of starting another new thread I'll just post my quick followup here.

Based on what I've read on this board and elsewhere it seems that for me (90% street) a good combo would be the easily adjusted Rancho 9000s (or equivilent), XHD springs, and a CE Slide-a-Link setup. Like 471 Magnum, I have a 8 3/4 that I don't want to blow up with too much hook and the setup has to be really streetable. SS springs may be too stiff for my own comfort and if one side tilts just a hair at a standstill I know that will annoy me whenever I look at it.

It sounds like ESPO may be the way to go on the springs. I was thinking 1" extra on height because I'm not 100% sure what 2" would do to street handling -- I already have a truck  .

[471_Magnum]

Having bought and used the standard height ESPO's, I'd recommend the +1", especially if you plan to use negative offset wheels (like Torq Thrusts).

You might check with NYCMille/Mr. Angry. He probably has the entire rear suspension of my old car in a box and may be willing to part with it.

[Hemidoug]

OK...here are some pics of the new springs next to the original springs off the car. The new spring numbers are P4452982 and 983. The original spring numbers are 2539795 and 2539965. They look identical to the original ones and are made in Mexico rather then China....A BARGIN at 200 new in the box from Ma Mopar.....

[firefighter3931]

OK...here are some pics of the new springs next to the original springs off the car. The new spring numbers are P4452982 and 983. The original spring numbers are 2539795 and 2539965. They look identical to the original ones and are made in Mexico rather then China....A BARGIN at 200 new in the box from Ma Mopar.....

Doug, the 982-983 springs are the XHD's....which is what you want with the Caltracs. 



Ron

[Hemidoug]

That's what I thought as well....Thanks!

I thought I would pull this thread in as well....It's a thread I started on the SS springs....thought I would pull it all together.

Let's keep this going....good info for all!

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33318.0.html

[472 R/T SE]

I'm in the same boat as mine won't hook at all.  I have the connectors that will be welded on and as Ron once said, "You can grind any slag marks off if you ever want to go original again and paint over it and no one will ever know the difference".  I sometimes wish I would have bought the US Car tool ones but like you I felt it'd be too much slag to clean off when it's the entire floor although they're prolly better than only having two contact points.  I'm also installing either Caltracs or the Slide a Link when we put the new springs on.

IMO, if you don't want to run frame connectors I'd detune it.  It's only gonna take one time to get that hook you're after and your passenger door won't want to close correctly anymore.  I've also heard of elephant powered non connector convertible e bodies popping their windshield out.
I know of two guys who are running less potent Hemis' than yours Doug and one of them stopped doing the occasional racing before he seen the longitudinal stripe wasn't lining up anymore on the pass. side.  He was running slicks w/ no connectors I think because he was like you and not wanting to mess up an original V code car. 

I can appreciate you not wanting to deviate from original.  It's easy for guys' like me to preach connectors when I don't own an original "J" or "R" code car.    My only contribution is knowing folks running elephants w/ droopy doors.

[Hemidoug]

Ya...I'm definitely between a rock and a hard spot with this one....About the only thing I can do is find the sweet spot between chassis setup and throttle to prevent twisting her up. I know guys are getting some really fast times running F.A.S.T. and not twisting them up. I think a lot of that has to do with dropping the clutch at 4 grand and having it hook right off. That is the last thing I'm going to do. I'll ease it off the line and roll into it so it should be a little easier on her. I guess we will find out. Maybe I'll do the chassis tuning in steps and see how and where that sweet spot comes in. I needed new springs anyway, the ones on the car are all twisted up. I think I'll hold up on sticky tires just to see what the suspension will do first. I don't mind some slippage as long as I can get it to grab at some point...Stay tunned...I'll bring this post back in the spring with my results....

[firefighter3931]

  My only contribution is knowing folks running elephants w/ droopy doors.

It's not just Hemi's that have this problem....even mild wedge motors will twist em up pretty good. I've seen cars twist em up using just street tires that didn't hook all that well.  The unibody is just a poor design for hard core driving and the lack of frame ties just aggrivates the torsional twisting. It really is noticable how much better the car drives and handles with the frames tied....it's night and day ! 


The MP frame connectors are easy to install and easily reversable at a later date should the car be returned to a more stock look. I have them on the 68 but would opt for the US Cartool connectors on my 70 because they look as if they were built by the factory. The 70 is going to be more of a cruiser but i still want to play a little. 


Ron

[Hemidoug]

Ron,
I understand the Mopar frame connectors are bolt in....any word on how well they look/work? I ordered a set (cheap at 150 bucks). If they are a bolt in with limited hole drilling maybe I'll use those. The ones you are using are nice, but way too much welding to clean up if they need to be removed. A couple of holes can be filled easily IMHO and the car could be returned to original without too much trouble....

Got any pics/install suggestions? Where do they bolt to? Will they work on boxed frames?

[Chryco Psycho]

if you want to get serious a set of 32" ladderbars & housing floaters will get you hooked up

[Hemidoug]

na....Already going that route with my 65......

[joflaig]

I just added a 4-point rollcage. Sub-Frame connectors are on the list for next fall, BUT I am curious if anyone can quantify the benefit the cage will supply in terms of stiffness and preventing twisting versus a sub-frame connector only situation...

[472 R/T SE]

I thought they (MP) asked if you had a boxed frame when ordering?    I wanted to bolt mine in too but again Ron talked me out of it saying the torque will wallow out the holes over time.  With me I feel the slag will be easier to clean versus cleaning up holes after I've thought about it.

I have a set of bolt up ones but will most likely wait until spring is around the corner to add them so I won't be of much help until then.  I don't usually do any work until March or last minute.

Question...and sorry if I'm jackn' your thread.  I plan on cleaning (grinding) the areas where the connectors go and then taking it to the exhaust shop where he can lift the car with the weight of the car on four corners w/ air pressure equal all the way around & then weld.  Is this the correct method?  I should be able to weld only on the vertical sides on the subframe correct?

[firefighter3931]

Doug & Mike ; here are a few pics of the MP connectors installed on the 68. I would recommend welding them on and they can allways be removed later but i'm doubting you will want to do that once you feel the difference. 

The way  look at it is this : it's a lot easier to grind down a few welds and repaint the frame than it is to repair torn sheetmetal and repaint body panels. 


Ron

[mally69]

Those are the exact same type i have on mine now, and they DO work    except i didnt weld mine in, I have spacer's inside the frame rail so I can really tighten them down. I put those spacers in when i had the floor pans out.

[471_Magnum]

My '69 had welded in connectors. Not sure if they were MP, or homebuilt.  They were definitely at least modeled after the MP connectors. Whatever the case, they did the job. That car was by far the most solid and rattle-free Mopar I have ever driven, and it stayed that way for over 20K miles of abuse.

The MP connectors will not work on convertibles, presumably due to the torque boxes, which are also present on Hemi cars and some other HiPo cars.