Camshaft choice problems

[Belgium R/T -68]

currently restoring a -68 Charger R/T but have some trouble choosing camshaft and looking for some help.
Will use edelbrock RPM manifold and heads, KB 237 flat pistons approx 10,3 comp and a edelbrock 800 AVS carb.
For converter I choose a B&M 2400 and put a 3,55 gear in the end. Is the edelbrock RPM camshaft a good choise for a
allround use ( no racing, quick at redlight) or is comp CL21-224-4 a better choise? What will be the caracteristics of these
two camshafts in my 440 charger? 

[firefighter3931]

Engle k56 would be perfect for that combo. 


Ron

[Charger-Bodie]

Id reconsider the carb choice though  i just got rid of my 800 AVS in favor of a froform douple pumper.....runs MUCH better!!

[Belgium R/T -68]

Engle k56 would be perfect for that combo. 


Ron

Thanks Ron, where can I find the Engle camshafts and to learn: what would be the problem
with the two I proposed? 

[Rolling_Thunder]

engle camshafts are made at www.englecams.com - no parts house that i know of carries their brand -

the Edelbrock cam has alot of seat time and have alot of duration...    not an ideal cam - I would know I have one in my 440 at the moment...    id i had to do it again i would go with a Engle cam K56 / K58...      but I would trust  Firefighter's opinion   

Comp's cams have never really been my personal favorite, but cant give u any reason why...

[Chatt69chgr]

For the engine proposed by Belgium R/T 68---------------what would be the difference in performance between running a K56 and a K58?  Is the K58 just set up to operate at a higher rpm band?

[Belgium R/T -68]

Would the comp cam selection result in poor performance or how should I understand you?

[firefighter3931]

For the engine proposed by Belgium R/T 68---------------what would be the difference in performance between running a K56 and a K58?  Is the K58 just set up to operate at a higher rpm band?

The k58 is a 230*@.050 cam and he doesn't have enough stall to make it work well. Too much duration, inmo. 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Engle k56 would be perfect for that combo. 


Ron

Thanks Ron, where can I find the Engle camshafts and to learn: what would be the problem
with the two I proposed? 

Hi and welcome to the site 

Both of your other cam choices are basicly too big for the build you have outlined (2400 stall/3.55 gears) and would be weak down low. It's important to match all the components when trying to sort out a build or you will be very disappointed. The biggest mistake most folks make is going too big on the cam....then wondering why it performs poorly.

With a 2400 stall you want a cam with low to mid 220*@.050 duration to keep the engine in the powerband where the converter/rear end gearing choices have dictated it should be. 

As Rolling Thunder posted (correctly) the Edelbrock cams have lots of seat to seat timing (poor idle quality) and lots of duration relative to the valve lift. That makes it mediocre at best.  The Comp xe274 is a better choice than the edelbrock stick but it still has too much duration for your intended application...and it is ground on a Chevy lobe pattern which means it's a slow, lazy profile. 

The Engle cams are modern camshafts designed specificly for Chrysler engines and take advantage of the larger lifter diameter that the factory blessed us with. Basicly these cams idle better and make more power than most others. There are several members here who have made the switch to Engle and have never looked back. 

The K56 is ideal for your build....it will drop right in w/o any head modifications and the powerband of this profile is perfect given the parameters outlined above. It will make lots of manifold vacuum (power brakes) and be easy to tune with a nice clean idle. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Ron, you have convinsed me! Will order the K56. Can I use the lifters coming with the Comp and
edelbrock camkits I already bought since I didn't see any lifters at the Engle website?
With adding TTI 1 7/8 headers to my car do you think I could reach 450 hp? Did not say before but
included also is new Eagle H-beam rods and completly balanced + windagetray ofcourse.
For the moment the car is totally dismantled for paintpreparation and the meaning is to make something special
out of it. Here in Belgium they don,t grow on trees. Will add some pictures as I proceed. Also have a cuda -70,
Challenger conv -70 and a -69 GTX conv. I am really a Moparfreak but it,s expensive here compared to chevy and Ford.

[firefighter3931]

Yes, you can use lifters from the other cam kits as long as they are brand new and never been run. The Comp cams #911 valvespring will work fine with this cam profile or you can use the springs from Engle.

As for power ; this cam can pull enough rpm to make 450hp but the cylinder head flow largely determines how much power the engine makes. With a stock unported iron head it would be less than 450hp but it will make lots of torque....which is what you want on the street. With a descent aftermarket aluminum head it would easily make that number...if not more. 


Ron


Ps. You have some nice cars.....Moparfreak indeed ! 

[Belgium R/T -68]

Yes, you can use lifters from the other cam kits as long as they are brand new and never been run. The Comp cams #911 valvespring will work fine with this cam profile or you can use the springs from Engle.

As for power ; this cam can pull enough rpm to make 450hp but the cylinder head flow largely determines how much power the engine makes. With a stock unported iron head it would be less than 450hp but it will make lots of torque....which is what you want on the street. With a descent aftermarket aluminum head it would easily make that number...if not more. 


Ron


Ps. You have some nice cars.....Moparfreak indeed ! 

Thanks, I bought the Edelbrock RPM heads 84 cc, complete. 2,5 TTI exhaust all the way so I will hopefully have my 450Hp then!!!!
Should maybe be worth wile to invest in a new adjustable rockerkit, have an old crane system. Can you recomend a good set up
incl pushrods for reasonable money.

Thanks // Per

[firefighter3931]

Excellent....you will Luv the RPM cylinder heads. I'd say your 450hp benchmark is easily within reach and it will make 500+ ftlbs of torque. 

The crane ductile iron rockers are fine for this build....if you have them then by all means re-use them. 


Save some $$ for new tires....you'll be needing to replace them often. 



Ron

[six-tee-nine]

I really don't want to hack the topic, but i can't seem to get over your name.

You Belgian?
Because i am too and there are just a handful of Chargers over here (4 including mine that i know of), so i like to know / meet every new Charger-owner in our small country....


Anyway welcome to the site and i'm sure you'll be hooked pretty soon....

[Belgium R/T -68]

I really don't want to hack the topic, but i can't seem to get over your name.

You Belgian?
Because i am too and there are just a handful of Chargers over here (4 including mine that i know of), so i like to know / meet every new Charger-owner in our small country....


Anyway welcome to the site and i'm sure you'll be hooked pretty soon....

I am actually Swedish but lives since 10 yers in Belgium, My charger was white until I stripped it for the resto.
2006 it was "best mopar" at Stekene spring meeting for the rest I don't drive that much with my cars.
Hopefully after the resto I will come out moore, hope to see you then.

// Per

[Belgium R/T -68]

Storyend: K-56 arrived today at my house in Belgium! 5 days after I ordered it.
Great guy to talk to at Engle, he really wanted to make sure I got what I needed,
he had no problems with me not beeing a professor in Camtechnology. Truly recomended shop!! 

//Per

[firefighter3931]

Wow....that was fast !  One piece of the puzzle completed....good job ! 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Wow....that was fast !  One piece of the puzzle completed....good job ! 



Ron

In my eager to learn I read David Vizards "How to build horsepower" and got interested
in part concerning rockerarm ratio. Would it be a gain of performance for me with the K-56
to go up to 1.6 ratio? 

[SeattleCharger]

Let me guess at this one, beginner amateur educated guess:   my understanding is that going from stock 1.5 rocker to 1.6 rocker is a way to change the way the rods are opening the valves( something like that, crude description I know) ,  it is an easy way to mod an engine without changing cams that will fool the engine into thinking a stock cam is actually a bigger cam,  its easier to do than switching cams because you just take off valve covers and switch rockers, and bingo, engine acts like you put a bigger cam in it.   The thing is, if you choose a K56 grind to match up with your combo, then change the rockers, you may as well not have bought the K56 in the first place, because now the engine is just going to act like you put the K58 cam in it, or something like that, when really you wanted the exact characteristics of the K56 in the first place, so I would guess no, you don't want to do that, you will change all the traits of the duration and lift etc that you achieved a certain way with the K56     

[firefighter3931]

Wow....that was fast !  One piece of the puzzle completed....good job ! 



Ron

In my eager to learn I read David Vizards "How to build horsepower" and got interested
in part concerning rockerarm ratio. Would it be a gain of performance for me with the K-56
to go up to 1.6 ratio? 

The 1.6 rocker will accelerate the valve action but won't alter the duration much...maybe a few degress at most. The Engle cams are designed as a fast rate profile and thus don't need a 1.6:1 rocker ratio to make power. 

With a hydraulic cam, my preference is for a 1.5:1 rocker arm when using a fast rate of lift profile (Engle) to keep the valvetrain more stable at higher engine speeds. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Wow....that was fast !  One piece of the puzzle completed....good job ! 



Ron

In my eager to learn I read David Vizards "How to build horsepower" and got interested
in part concerning rockerarm ratio. Would it be a gain of performance for me with the K-56
to go up to 1.6 ratio? 

The 1.6 rocker will accelerate the valve action but won't alter the duration much...maybe a few degress at most. The Engle cams are designed as a fast rate profile and thus don't need a 1.6:1 rocker ratio to make power. 

With a hydraulic cam, my preference is for a 1.5:1 rocker arm when using a fast rate of lift profile (Engle) to keep the valvetrain more stable at higher engine speeds. 



Ron

If you never ask you will never learn and know!

Thanks // Per

[Belgium R/T -68]

Will upgrade my not yet build engine to a 500 stroker with a 850 proform carb, is the K58 a better choice then or is the stall/gear still the problem?

//Per

[firefighter3931]

Will upgrade my not yet build engine to a 500 stroker with a 850 proform carb, is the K58 a better choice then or is the stall/gear still the problem?

//Per

With a 500in build the K60 would work fine with your combo. 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

With a 500in build the K60 would work fine with your combo. 



Ron

Will I still have enough vacuum for my powerbrakes and a reasonable idle?

[Belgium R/T -68]

Any thoughts on the vacuum and idle with the K60?

//Per

[firefighter3931]

Any thoughts on the vacuum and idle with the K60?

//Per

Per, the k60 will idle fine, be easy to tune and make lots of manifold vacuum......plenty for a PB booster. No worries ! 


Mike is running this cam in his 505 stroker : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Great Ron!!! Seems that the biggest difference between my and Mikes engine will be that he has the Holly intake and I will go for the edelbroeck RPM.
Hope that doesn't take down my wishes for lowend torque?

[firefighter3931]

Great Ron!!! Seems that the biggest difference between my and Mikes engine will be that he has the Holly intake and I will go for the edelbroeck RPM.
Hope that doesn't take down my wishes for lowend torque?

If you're looking for lots of bottom end torque the RPM intake will make more than you need....no worries there ! 

The reality with stroker builds is that they all make so much torque that it doesn't really matter what intake you use.....the engine will make more than you can possibly hook on a street tire. 

I like the holley SD because it makes excellent torque and moves enough air up top to keep the engine happy at wide open throttle. Both intakes are a good choice for a street stroker build but the Holley will make better top end power while the dual plane RPM will make slightly better bottom end power.

If you look at Mike's dyno sheets it's obvious that torque is not an issue.....600ftlbs is a ton of power on the street 



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

  Will order the K60 and keep you updated along the build.

//Per

Ron, after reading Mikes thread again and checking Engles website I see Mike has a 112° cam while the catalog saying 108°, what should I select and what's the difference?

//Per

[firefighter3931]

Will order the K60 and keep you updated along the build.

//Per

Ron, after reading Mikes thread again and checking Engles website I see Mike has a 112° cam while the catalog saying 108°, what should I select and what's the difference?

//Per

Mike's cam was a custom order that is designed to mellow out the idle and increse manifold vacuum for power brakes. Wide lobed profiles extend the powerband while tighter lobed profiles create a more narrow powerband. On a large displacement cruiser build i like the wide LSA for better street manners and a wide powerband. On a more race oriented build the tighter lsa cams work well with loose stall converters and deep gears.

As you saw in Mike's build the wide 112* lsa is an excellent choice....it makes very good power from idle to redline.



Ron

[Belgium R/T -68]

Then my choice will be the 112°  Hopefully I can make a dynotest in neighbourland The Netherlands because here I don't find any.
Would be really sad not to be able to do one.

//Per

[Belgium R/T -68]

Good news! The only Mopar speedshop in Belgium will install a Dyno!  Just in time for my stroker.

[firefighter3931]

Good news! The only Mopar speedshop in Belgium will install a Dyno!  Just in time for my stroker.

Excellent....you will enjoy the experience ! 



Ron