440 cylinder head questions,need input

[andy74]

the 440 that i am building for my car is getting closer! my current 440 has a set of 906 heads,machined to make 9.3 to 1 compression with the flat tops i have now.a guy who comes to my dealer ship has a complete set of 452 heads,new valve springs,valves etc that he will sell me ,wants me to make him an offer.
now,the new engine is already equipped with trw l2266f30 flat tops,and a mopar 280/.474 cam,all new arp bolts,stock 68 rods and crank,balanced and blueprinted by a real good local machine shop.i got this engine by trading 2 stock,one 383,one 440(77) rebuilders,and a big block 727 rebuildable tranny from a motor home.
i know that a lot of guys dont like these pistons,but its what it came with,and what i run now,so i have to live with em! any how,should i use the current heads i have,or buy the others and use them,and keep my other engine complete?
keep in mind i dont race,and its a street driven72 charger,727 with a 2000 stall and 3.55 gears,although i have a 2600 stall convertor i can use-andy

[RD]

i would run the 452's just because they have hardened valve seats.  everything else about the heads are practically the same.  You can always machine the 452 heads if you want higher compression.  just dont forget to take some off of the intake ports so your intake will fit properly.

[firefighter3931]

  The 452's are a good flowing head....the hardened seats are a bonus. The 2266's are approx .080 below deck so with a .020 steel shim head gasket and an 88cc chamber the static compression ratio works out to 9.13:1....i did the math. If you want more static compression, simply milling the heads as Jamey said will get you there. I wouldn't run higher than 9.5:1 and you can certainly get by with 9:1 as long as the cam is properly specced for the combo. Something with shorter duration and minimal overlap will help build cylinder pressure and create good torque/throttle response. You don't really want to go too crazy anyway with a street car...the idea is to be able to enjoy the cruise and have a little fun now and then.

Ron

[andy74]

ron, should i leave the cam that is in the engine alone or change it now?like i told you before,i am working on a budget,and traded some stuff for this engine,havent spent much of the budget,but its getting close!

[MoparYoungGun]

Personally, I do believe you should swap out the cam. I would either swap it to a Engle K56/K58 or a Comp Cams XE268. But that's just me. Ron or Neil will be able to give you a better choice than myself, they might also say to just leave it alone. Good luck with the rest of the build !

[RD]

just keep that cam.  its good enough for what you want.

[firefighter3931]

just keep that cam.   its good enough for what you want.

Use the 2600 stall and degree the cam in. I'd be looking to advance it 4* to move the powerband down a couple hundred rpm so it matches up with the rest of the combo. It's not the best choice but you've allready got it....might as well use it.  

Ron

[andy74]

i can get any mopar cam for about 150 bucks,i dont want to run solid lifters,and i can sell the cam thats in it back to the guy i got it from,what would you guys recomend?i have a split duration summit cam in the 440 in my car now,which runs great,just is really mild(.445/.465, 280/298),that engine will come out and go on a stand,for a redo next year-andy

[cudaken]

 Andy, did you get the new baby smell out of the Charger yet?

If the 452's are stock, stick with the 906's heads you have. All BB heads stock flow about the same not counting the 426 Maxies.

Harden seats, well I think that sort of a myth. There was a posting about this about a month ago that it does not apply to Mopar. They have better seat's and do not need the harden seat. One thing I know, just because you read it does not mean it is ture.

My 70 383 Cuda has 96,000 miles on the 383 with stock 906 heads. Getting tired but not the heads. My 69 Charger 906's head's final gave up the ghost at 156,000 miles. Seat was not the problem valves where sticking. Had a head job and did not replaces the seat. Was running fine after a nother 62,000 miles. There may have been a few seat's replaced, that was a long time ago but head work was only $350.00 in 1989.

My Runner now has a 383 with 906's heads, miles are not known. Bought it used when I sold my 426 Maxie to buy the house. I have drove it around 30,000 miles and have no clue as to what was on it when I bought it.

Use's the 906's and save your money. If or when you fry a valve have harden seat's added then. If you are as lucky as me, that will be 96,000 miles or better.

                      Cuda Ken

[firefighter3931]

Andy,

From a performance standpoint the 906's and 452's are a wash. I have seen valves countersunk into the seats on some older high milage (906) heads. A simple way to check is to lay a straitedge across the valve tips and see if they're all the same height...if some are higher than others then the valves have sunk. This will usually be the case on the exhaust side due to the higher temps those valves are exposed to. I assumed that you intended to keep the other motor intact and start fresh....hence the 452 head recommendation.  

As for the cam; there are lots of options in the $150.00 price range. I had good luck with the Crower hdp282 grind in my old 440 combo. Nice street manners and excellent bottom end power. Ran it with a 2500 stall and 3.55 gears. It was pulled for something bigger and was transplanted into a friends 440. He was impressed with the improved streetability and bottom end power....his old cam was the 509 which was all wrong for the combo. The difference was night and day between the two grinds for that application. The 509 was so soft on the bottom end that the car wouldn't turn over a tire to save it's life. With the Crower, a little stab of the throttle creates a smoke show. The Engle cams are also very good...i've heard nothing but good about them.

Ron

[cudaken]

 Andy, the came that came with the new 440 is P4452993, it replaced the Hemi Street Cam that had 284/284/484/484 68 overlap and 108 center line.

Speck's on the P4452993 you have is 280/280/474/474 60 over lap and center line of 110.   I ran the bigger cam and like it on the steet. It was just a little soft in the bottom end but still pulled well. That is why the new cam out, will pick up the botton end a little.

Like you say, you are on the budget, try it and if you don't like it change it later.

                                                       Cuda Ken

[firefighter3931]

The 280/480 cam is bigger than it looks on paper. It has 238* duration at .050 lift which is large for a street motor with a mild build. The car will perform better with a grind that has less duration @.050 lift. That is the spec that determines the engine's powerband by and large...not the "advertised" #'s which in this case is actually 280*.  

If it were mine, I'd be looking at a cam in the 220*-228* range at .050 for the combo outlined above. While the 280/480 will work...it will be softer on the bottom end and more sluggish off idle. Advancing the cam timing will help and move the powerband down a few hundred rpm if you decide to keep it.  

Ron

[MoparYoungGun]

The 280/480 cam is bigger than it looks on paper. It has 238* duration at .050 lift which is large for a street motor with a mild build. The car will perform better with a grind that has less duration @.050 lift. That is the spec that determines the engine's powerband by and large...not the "advertised" #'s which in this case is actually 280*.  

If it were mine, I'd be looking at a cam in the 220*-228* range at .050 for the combo outlined above. While the 280/480 will work...it will be softer on the bottom end and more sluggish off idle. Advancing the cam timing will help and move the powerband down a few hundred rpm if you decide to keep it.  

Ron

, that's exactly what I was thinking when I suggested that you should swap out the cam.

[andy74]

okay,i will bite the bullet and get a different cam,tore the other cam out this weekend! as for the heads,i actually have a nother set of 906s,was going to put them on the engine in my car now,they are decked,have new springs,and the valves and seats are in great shape.i got them in trade for a 3rd gen charger rear bumper and brackets.the guy at the machine shop that my dealer ship uses checked them out,and tells me that the combustion chambers are 85 ccs,so i can use them and the shim gaskets for a decent comp ratio with the slugs in the new engine,right?

[firefighter3931]

Hi Andy, those should work out fine. With an 85cc chamber, .020 shim gasket and .080 deckheight...the static compression works out to 9.35:1   It might be worthwhile to get a deckhight measurement and see exactly how far those pistons are below deck. I'm using .080 because that's where they "usually" are. I've also used a 4.35 bore in the calculations assuming it has been overbored .030 with the new pistons.

Now you just need to decide on a converter and size the cam accordingly.  

Ron

[andy74]

Hi Ron, yes it was bored .030 over,I am actually looking at the reciept from the machine shop right now!the shop did a good job,replaced all the bearings,line bore and honed,fit the pistons,rings and rods,turned the steel crank .010,and painted everything chrysler blue,if i didnt know better,i would have assumed it was a late 70s block-so any way,ill start doing my homework on the cam and convertor selection-keep me in mind if you come across a used street dominator!

[Charger72SE]

Hi guys,

the shop has my stock 440HP for a rebuild and we are also trying to decide on a cam

here's what we are doing with the rebuild:

new SpeedPro 2355F pistons & Moly rings  30 over
replacing the crank with a steel crank from 440source
new Clevite bearings all around
new chain, water pump & high volume oil pump
new staunless steel valves

my Charger is for street use and is all numbers matching, so I'm keeping it stock
SpeedPro pistons take the 440 up to about 9:3 compression from original 8:2 with 452 heads
the valve springs are being checked - the engine has 48K miles on it
the rear end is 8 3/4 with 323 gears

my questions:
- what is size is the stall converter that came with this car?
- with a 30 over bore on a 440, what is the new cu in?
- what cam do you recommend? (sorry, cams are something I just don't know anything about)

thanks much!

[MoparYoungGun]

my questions:
- what is size is the stall converter that came with this car?
- with a 30 over bore on a 440, what is the new cu in?
- what cam do you recommend? (sorry, cams are something I just don't know anything about)

Not really sure on the converter.
Your 440 should now be 446.
For a cam, I would reccomend an Engle K56 or something similar.