Ques about NASCAR wing cars

[CornDogsCharger]

I have a question that probably has been answered one time or another on this message board.  My question is this..... the Daytonas and Superbirds... along with all other cars.... did these cars originate as a regular passenger car?  I mean, were they standard cars that were modified into the finished product that you see on the race track?  Did the cars originally have VINs?  Did the manufactures pull the bodies off the assembly line once they were complete and send them off to the race teams?  Or did the race teams start with a bundle of parts to assemble? 

  Last spring I visited the museum at the Talladega Speedway and got to see two of the K&K Ins #71 Chargers.  I can't remember off hand if it was the Daytona or the 500, but one of the cars had a '66-'67 dash in it.  So I guess it was originally a Coronet or Satellite.  Anyways, if someone could possibly give me the low-down on the Nascars, I would greatly appreciate it. 

Thanks!
Justin

[nascarxx29]

The racers recieved bodies in white from the factory .By changing certain body panels a charger 500 .Could evolve into a daytona for the next race



  Re: Clone Or Custom
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2006, 09:04:49 AM »   

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Quote from: Ghoste on May 27, 2006, 08:24:31 AM
So how many folks would consider the actual winged race cars to be original?  How many would consider them to be clones?


                    i would say the  original race aero cars are the originals and the street    XX29's
( C500's & Daytonas are the clones ).because the race C5OO & DAYTONA had all ready been built and track tested and the 68/69 basic charger  bodies ( in white) received the aero parts first , and then chrysler had to build street legal copy's to be allowed to race , if that makes sense  but the XX29  chargers are the original  ones also because they was sold as aero cars from the dealer .

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Ghoste
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  Re: Clone Or Custom
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2006, 09:05:48 AM »   

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I think they are both original to two different categories.  To me, it was a bit of a trick question and I never really considered Geno's point about the street cars being clones.
I only asked the question because Danny mentioned liking the originals so much, he hated seeing them cloned.  I understood exactly what he meant but it did occur to me that all of the race cars were most likely 68 models with updated sheet metal.

[CornDogsCharger]

So take for example, the '66 Charger Nascar.  Did it start out as a regular production car and then was gutted and modified into a nascar?  And if it was a production car.... did it start out as a hemi production car or a 318 car that had a hemi dropped in.  Sorry for all of the questions, it is just something that I have always wondered but could never get a definate answer.
Justin

[Aero426]

So take for example, the '66 Charger Nascar.  Did it start out as a regular production car and then was gutted and modified into a nascar?  And if it was a production car.... did it start out as a hemi production car or a 318 car that had a hemi dropped in.  Sorry for all of the questions, it is just something that I have always wondered but could never get a definate answer.
Justin

The car is question (69 Charger standard nose) was most likely built from a body in white.     I've seen that dash.   That particular car has some wierd stuff on it, and does not look to me like a car built in '68.

Some of the 1964 cars were gutted street cars built by Ray Nichels or the major teams like Cotton Owens or the Pettys.   As time moved forward, by 1966 cars began to be built up from bodies in white.   During this period, all Chrysler stock car race parts and cars were constructed by Nichels Engineering in Indiana.   Petty Enterprises built up their own cars, but the stuff still flowed to them from Nichels.   

In 1971, Petty took over the car parts and construction business from Nichels.   As things evolved, the cars were no longer built up from bodies in white, but from individual pieces built on a chassis jig and fixtures. 

Once again, after the early days of the Chrysler race program in '64, no cars were built from tear downs.    No race wing cars were built from street cars, except the #88 Daytona which is rumored to have been a Charger 500 press car that was stolen, stripped and recovered. 

[learical1]

Once again, after the early days of the Chrysler race program in '64, no cars were built from tear downs.    No race wing cars were built from street cars, except the #88 Daytona which is rumored to have been a Charger 500 press car that was stolen, stripped and recovered. 

Doug, a question for you.  Probably in 1978, I gave Jim Radke a large picture postcard of Joe Frasson (sp?) next to his Daytona.  Jim studied the picture for a couple of minutes and said that it was a street car turned into a Nascar Grand National stock car.  He didn't explain how he came to this conclusion.  Any comments?

[Ghoste]

Corndog,
I have a picture on the wall in my garage showing Sam McQuags 66 Charger under construction.  It is in the early phases of getting converted and it is literally a "body in white".  I'll take it down and scan it if you want.

[CornDogsCharger]

Doug, that is some awesome information.  I have a magazine from 1970 that covers the build-up of stock cars. The book never really give me a definate answer to what I was wondering.  It did have some cool photos.  In the "Body" section, they went to the Petty Shop to cover te buildup.  Richard Petty was quoted as saying that he liked to use factory Newport lower control arms because they were stronger than B-body arms.  They also have a grainy photo of Petty's Superbird being skined. 

Ghoste, I would love to see that '66 Charger picture you are talking about.  If you like, you can post it here or send it to me at CornDog05@yahoo.com

Thanks
Justin
"CornDog"

[Ghoste]

Here you are.

[Aero426]

Here you are.

That's from the Motor Trend article, "Ray Nichels tells how he stiffens the stockers."     That's a good issue and not too hard to find. 

[Aero426]

Once again, after the early days of the Chrysler race program in '64, no cars were built from tear downs.    No race wing cars were built from street cars, except the #88 Daytona which is rumored to have been a Charger 500 press car that was stolen, stripped and recovered. 

Doug, a question for you.  Probably in 1978, I gave Jim Radke a large picture postcard of Joe Frasson (sp?) next to his Daytona.  Jim studied the picture for a couple of minutes and said that it was a street car turned into a Nascar Grand National stock car.  He didn't explain how he came to this conclusion.  Any comments?

No clue.   With Nichels building LOTS of new cars in '68 and used 66-67 chassis readily available to have sheet metal updated, Jim's comment does not make sense, at least to me. 

Considering all the structural mods necessary to build a raceworthy Grand National car,  it would not make financial sense to try and do it yourself from a street car.    When you really start looking hard at the race cars, by the wing car era, there really isn't much of anything stock on those cars.   The unibody is heavily reworked, K frame unique, the brakes and suspension have absolutely NOTHING to do with production except for the general torsion bar layout.   Wheels are double center special pieces.   And the list goes on...

[Johnny Daytona]

In 69 the car thar Richard Brickhouse won the Taladaga race was a 63 or 64 Chassis That had a body put on it. Did any body see the chassis that was on ebay last year in Ohio, that was red and rough shape?  I did some research on it and found out that was Bay Darnell 69 Charger 500 and that it was a Nichels car. That it got several body changes. I was high bidder but did not make the reserve. It has been sold.   I know the 69 race was a lame attempt due to the strike and all. Still that car ran good elsewhere too.

[Brock Samson]

so when did the racer's actually move from being stock cars to the modified race cars?.. 
allot of the '63 cars look bone stock, but then by '65 they're looking wicked like the banana car... i wasn't old enough till '67 to be cognisant of the differences.

[Ghoste]

Not really a firm date Brock.  It's more like an evolutionary era that took place gradually through the 60's.
I didn't know the 99 car was an old chassis, I always thought it was a current one.

[daytonalo]

What is a double center rim

[CornDogsCharger]

Hey Johnny Daytona.  I don't rememebr seeing that one.  Do you have any pictures?  What did the bid go up to and do you know what it eventually sold for.  That would have been a cool find! 

Justin
"CornDog"

[Johnny Daytona]

 Hey  Corndog I bid 6300 for it. I don't have any pictures left of it. I deleated those files. But now it seems that I have become the noted historian for this car. What realy made me mad was That I would have paid more than I bid. My first thoughts were that it was a Nichles chassis by the layout of the bars. Then I got missled that it was built in 72 and that it was the car that won the USAC Texas 500 in 76, and not a Nichles chassis. So I did not bid again Only to find out from the new owner that it has a 69 fire wall in it. And perfect welds on the bars. Signs of Nichles. He was suppose to email some pics of it. I will ask him to resend. 

[BROCK]

Here is an old trick question:  "How many 69 Daytonas did MoPar produce for NASCAR racing?"
The answer is none:  they were rebodied older chassis.  I read a magazene article about a NASCAR
wing car that was found with Magnum bodywork & restored to it's former guies.  Trouble is
magazenes don't research facts on feature cars - they just spout the car owner's story.  It's
taken 30 years of putting up with that fact to gleen 1 page of real facts out of those bums.

[Aero426]

What is a double center rim

The 8" or so wheel center where the lugs attach is double thickness as stock.  When they build the wheel, they welded a second center piece over the top as a reinforcement.   Applies to both Chrysler and H-M wheels.

[Aero426]

In 69 the car thar Richard Brickhouse won the Taladaga race was a 63 or 64 Chassis That had a body put on it.

With full factory support, running a six year old chassis in 1969 doesn't make sense.   Not to mention the evolutionary changes along the way.   Where did you get this information from?

[Aero426]

so when did the racer's actually move from being stock cars to the modified race cars?.. 

About 1951, LOL. 

This is an older book from the early 1990's, but John Craft does a nice job of taking you through the years.  LOTS of old stuff.   It is out of print, but you can get this on Amazon for cheap.

[Ghoste]

What were the levels of mods they were doing that far back Doug?

[Aero426]

What were the levels of mods they were doing that far back Doug?

It became clear after the early races that pure stock stuff was not going to hold up in the tire, suspension and axle areas.  By the early 1950's, if a manufacturer offered a heavier duty part, it was allowed to be used.   Heavier suspension (like taxi/police), bigger brakes, reinforcing the brake backing plates, 1-ton truck rear ends.  Hudsons used full floating axles, and their multiple carb option on the street car came from racing.    Smokey once talked about the rule of no porting or polishing.  But they didn't say you couldn't pump an abrasive slurry through the heads and manifolds to clean things up a bit.     

[Ghoste]

So more like hot rodded than stock?

[Aero426]

So more like hot rodded than stock?

Pretty much.  Frames were stock.  As time went on, you got a gusset or reinforcement here or there.    A lot of the early stuff was simply safety related, or, "How do we keep this stuff from breaking".   Eventually NASCAR moved from its position of "strictly stock" to allowing some modifications in the name of safety.   In some cases parts were created for NASCAR and available "over the counter".   The Aero car bodies are possibly the ultimate expression of this philosophy.

When you look at Ford in 1967 starting to graft full frame '65 Galaxie front clips into Fairlane unibodies (again, for strength), it's hard to make an argument that much was stock.  In '68 Chrysler created the soon to be illegal 2" by 2" car by separating the body and platform at the rockers and re-jiggering things they way they wanted.    It maintained correct ride height, but the 2" drop of the front clip caused them to cast up special intakes with the carb recessed so the hood could close.   The fake #88 in the Talladega museum is one of these two cars.   So is it production based?   Well yes,  but it sure ain't "stock". 

[pettybird]

So that's why the "bathtub" intake? 



I was excited to see someone post about the NASCAR cars because I wanted you to answer...You'll forget more about the race stuff than I'll ever know.