Re: just contemplating my build... [UPDATED: 4/2/08] - ALL DYNO #s

[firefighter3931]

To me, a 1x5 patch would be no big deal....install the new metal and go with it. 



Ron

[joflaig]

That's what I figured I'd do. They suggested I box in the other frame rail even though there is no corrosion. I don't see the need for it, so I'm not sure where the suggest comes from .

It's funny I had half joked with them about a line locker a few months ago, and I guess they thought I wasn't kidding and ordered a Hurst unit. I don't "need" it, but I guess I'll keep it anyhow. 

I had a nightmare last night that my transmission wasn't really a 727 and when the heads came off the bore was way over stock and I had to deal with sending the balanced crank and pistons kit back to 440 source!

[joflaig]

Well, today I feel like a guy who didn't know if his girlfriend was a virgin or not and just found out. 

The engine builder tore it apart and we're looking at a .060 bore.

Well I was assured the block had a standard bore, but I guess I made the big newbie mistake of ordering the stroker kit before knowing for sure. 440 Source will not take returns of course. I can either sell the stroker kit and try and find something that works at this bore or sell my block and get something to work with the kit!     

Right now, I'm just leaning toward a new block. Aside of trying to make a 512 stroker work with it, I mean if I ever rebuilt a .060 block down the road, I'm kind of limited. If I go for it, my builder may be able to set me up since he's the only mopar engine shop around and is surely plugged in.

However, looking around I'm seeing prices all over for the spectrum. I know MP has a bad rep on the hemi, what about their 440 blocks? Is $1500-2000 a reasonable guess on the cost for a re-conditioned "original" 440? Are there certain years I should avoid? My block was from a '71.

[Steve P.]

Another thing to think about. Maybe talk to your builder about sleeving your motor. Then you can use everything you have now and KNOW you have a serious block with no more core shift issues.   

[joflaig]

Another thing to think about. Maybe talk to your builder about sleeving your motor. Then you can use everything you have now and KNOW you have a serious block with no more core shift issues.   

Good point, I totally forgot about that. What are the typical pros and cons here?

This wasn't even something 440 Source suggested and the guy there was very helpful (while telling me no returns!), wonder why?

[Steve P.]

The pro's:

You can go back to stock piston size or to a comfortable size bore.

If your motor has core any shift it can be corrected.  (aligning the cylinders).

Much stronger cylinder wall.

Will help keep your water temp down.

Way less chance of a cylinder cracking.



The cons:

Only one I can think of, cost.   


My 

[joflaig]

The cons:

Only one I can think of, cost.   

Gee that sounds like a no brainer. I am already spending a small fortune. How much more could this run?

I'm trying to think what possible issue there could be doing this with the stroker kit, but I can't think of one.

[Steve P.]

I just asked a buddy what it cost him to do (1) sleeve in his 440. He said it was $130.00 for the one. Set up is the big time issue. I think it's cheaper per hole for multiple or in your case all 8.  I would ask your machinist.

I don't remember now if you said it is a matching numbers  motor or not. If it is then I think I would just pull the motor and put it under the bench. Find a good 440 that has not been bored and go from there.

[joflaig]

I don't remember now if you said it is a matching numbers  motor or not. If it is then I think I would just pull the motor and put it under the bench. Find a good 440 that has not been bored and go from there.

No, it's '71 -- not matching.

I think I can stomach the cost. It's less than a new block by a lot and it sounds like there are some real pro's.

I might be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing many builds here using sleeves -- and I mean by default for all the good reasons not as a last resort, sort of like for me. I am reading up on it, but is it more of a racing application?

[Steve P.]

Maybe not all, but MOST major racers use sleeved motors. ALL aluminum motors are sleeved. Anyone that is BLUEPRINT crazy will normally sleeve a motor.

I bought a 440 last year from an ebay seller for $112.70 . The ad said, (Local pick up only). Since it was in south Florida I knew it would go cheap. ( No one wants to drive down into Florida to pick up parts. Just those of us who live here).  I got the block with caps and a forged crank for that price. I then took all to the machine shop and cleaned and checked the motor for cracks and run out.   NO cracks and only .003 taper in the cylinders. BUT, that's not a deal you will find every day.  Oh yeah, the crank is also perfect.  What a deal...

[joflaig]

Sounds like the jackpot. I guess it can be a real crap shoot. I feel better now at least.

[firefighter3931]

I would look for another block. 

Here's a good deal from a very reputable shop in the midwest. The block is available in your choice of bore diameters and it comes all machined and ready to go. Square decked, finish honed, align bored, sonic checked, new cam bearings, main studs, as well as having the lifter bores bushed and the geometry corrected (that alone is a $500 maching bill). You would be doing most of this stuff to your block anyway....


https://chenowethspeedandmachine.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=218&osCsid=9474efcff8fbe97a3b79163f2677569e



Ron

[joflaig]

I would look for another block. 

I take it this comment is based on the viewpoint of cost perespective? Sleeving what I have in itself wouldn't seem to have any technical disadvantage. The builder did say the block was "recently rebuilt". I don't know if that could have any bearing on machining costs, but when I go there tomorrow morning I will certainly find out his opinion.

[firefighter3931]

I would look for another block. 

I take it this comment is based on the viewpoint of cost perespective?

Basicly yes. Print off a copy of the link i posted above with all the machining done and hand it to your builder...see what he says it will cost to do this to your block and install the 8 sleeves. You'll have your answer then.



Ron

[joflaig]

Well, I spent almost an hour with the builder this morning. They had cleaned the block and were in the middle of doing a magnaflux when I got there. From a few feet away it looked great all in gray like that. However, not only is it bored .060 over, but as it turns out there are long hairline cracks in the valley. The lines certainly didn't require a magnaflux to see. To weld them and put 8 sleeves in the holes to get down to .030, which is what I need, makes absolutely no sense. Forgeting the cracks, even using 8 sleeves was nuts, according to the builder because a new block is cheaper.

So I'm getting a new block.

They have a couple shelves with a half dozen or more 440 & 426 blocks ready for rebuilding. 440-wise, there was a '66, a '68 and a couple of '72s I could pick from. I'm taking one of the '72s. From what I understand it should be a stronger block. He guarantees no cracks. I am having them sonic check it. The cost is $800 bucks -- and of course we still have to clean it up and machine it. This may still be less than buying a machined block from Chenoweth down in Illinois -- especially since I can't do a core exchange.

My old block is basically good for scrap. The shop didn't even want it. The old 452 heads, pistons & rods, and crank are, however, in fine shape and I guess I'll try and sell them. They thought the crank was worth at least a few hundred.

When I bought this car early last year the engine was advertised as being newly rebuilt. My builder observered that it looked like a recent 'NAPA parts rebuild'. I'm certain those cracks in the block were there at the time of sale. It must have been a completely half-assed build. I don't get it. And I wonder if I can make a claim against the seller (I can at least tell you what dealer in St. Louis to avoid if you happen to be buying there). I suppose at 375-400 HP these hairline cracks might not matter (for a time, anyway)?

At any rate, the builder was impressed at the parts that I had brought in, the choices made (thanks Ron, and everyone). I would imagine engine builders like to control everything and get annoyed when people bring in boxes of mismatched parts from swapmeets. Some suggestions he had are:

-Ultimate Sprag gear for the transmission
-replace stock balancer with Fluid Damper
-Use the Comp roller rockers (and Comp chrome moly push rods and lifters)

I guess the fluid damper would be the most controversial.

He said he didn't like the Be Cool radiators because they don't fit perfectly and suggested ordering a custom measured aluminum rad from Mancini. He said not to bother with an external trans cooler since I won't be racing that much and also felt a conventional fan with an aluminum shroud from Mancini would be fine. I got the sense he wasn't to hot on electric fans (of course, my resto shop recommends dual electric Spal fans). Lastly, he recommended what is now Brad Penn motor oil (w/zinc) -- it used to be Kendall.

I always get an education visiting these guys.

Finally, I asked them how much HP this thing as going to make and he said between 600-650 (500 at the tires) which is much more than I expected. I was thinking 550 or at the most 575 at the crank. At any rate, after they break it in the engine will go to the dyno so I will know for sure.

And just to recap, here is my latest build list (it's changed a bit):

---------------------------------------------

Use: Primarily street/highway, few times a year at the strip

Desire: power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy, fits stock hood, room for future growth (porting heads, etc)

Note: Car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires

Block:

•   Sonic checked, pressure test, cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed, squared

Engine:

Compression Ratio: 10 - 10.5:1

•   512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.25" stroke/7.100" rod), balanced crank, -17 CC dished pistons, 1.480" Compression Height

•   440 Source Billet Steel Main Caps & ARP studs

•   ATI elastomer style damper

•   Holley Street Dominator Intake Manifold (low rise single plane) - Part# HLY-300-14
o   Felpro 1215 intake gasket, valley pan
o   ARP bolts

•   Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84cc,
o   Comp Pro-Magnum Roller Rockers
o   Comp Heavy Duty Chrome Moly Pushrods
o   Comp "stock" Springs
o   Comp Lifters

•   ProForm 950hp Carburetor - Part# PRO-67202
o   Dual Feed Line
o   20-7 Bracket Adapter
o   Carb insulating Gasket (3/8in)
o   3" drop Base Air Cleaner (K&N)

•   MP Hemi Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
o   3/8 pickup

•   MP 4.150 in. Stroker / 500ci Windage Tray - Part# DCC-5007345

•   Engle Hydraulic Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust)
o   294/298 advertised running duration
o   244/250 duration @ .050
o   .540/.557 valve lift
o   110* lsa
o   3 bolt flank

•   160-180 Thermostat

•   3 Bolt Timing Chain

•   2" TTI Headers


Transmission::
•   New or rebuilt Clutch plates & bands

•   10" Street "S-800" Series Torque Converter (Tight) Part #17805ST (2800 stall - 3400 stall range)

•   B&M Heavy duty Flex Plate (holes must be for 7/16 bolts with flat heads to work with convertor)

•   ARP hardware

•   Shift Kit

•   NEW Speedo Gear (8.75 rear w/3.54 gears, 275/60/15 rear tires)


Misc:
•   MP Distribtor

•   Clay Smith or Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (which is better?)

•   Fuel pump pushrod

•   High volume Oil Pump

•   Hardened Oil Pump Drive

•   MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rmp rev limiter)

•   MSD Blaster Coil 2

[Steve P.]

Wow,, that's a damn shame about the block.   I think 800 sounds rather pricey for a bare block. I recently overheard an engine shop by me say they pay $350.00 for cores from the bone yard.

Why are you going with a 3/8th oil pick up? That monster will need all the oil it can get. I would go to a 1/2 inch pick up like the Hemi's use.

My other question goes to the Fluid damper balancer. I am not the best person on the subject, but I know many here and my machinist don't like them. 


What price did they give you for 8 sleeves?? I'm interested in the comparo...

[joflaig]

Yeah, it's a shame. It cost me a few bucks in labor just to get to the point where they could tell me for sure the block was no good.

For the $800 the block comes magna fluxed (and a few other things I'm forgetting). They guarantee no cracks. And of course there is no shipping cost. He didn't even quote me for the sleeves. It seemed to be something he couldn't even imagine doing.

I'm only going of others' advice on the 3/8 pickup. The builder made no comment on that. I have to wonder, though, if he did disagree with some of the less pricey details if he would just change them to his preference. Would an expirienced engine builder nessesarily bother telling their far less knowledgable customer that they are switching to a 1/2" pickup? I did make it clear I want to document everything.

As for the Fluid damper balancer I'm simply trusting his opinion. I'm not the expert on that either. Of course it will take a month before I see my new engine and rebuilt tranny so I have some time to change some details if need be.

[joflaig]

Pics of the block... what do you guys think? Someone said these are cracks are from leaving water in it and freezing. How could you tell? Woud it be from not using a 50/50 mix and letting it sit for years or something?

[joflaig]

Parts I will sell. WIW? I already have an offer on the crank, but don't know how much to let it go for?!

[joflaig]

My biggest problem (NOT)! 

[firefighter3931]

Sorry to hear about the block.....better to find out now rather than later.  I agree with the builder/machinist....sleeving 8 cylinders is rediculously expensive. The only way i would ever consider something like that would be if it was a numbers matching block and it was going to be an OE style restoration. It's a moot point anyway because the block is cracked. You should forward those pics to the dealer you bought the car from and see what he says. 

As for the oiling system ; the 3/8in pickup is fine, inmo. This is a cruiser type build that will be running a hydraulic cam. If you were planning on drag racing, running a solid cam and spinning it to 6500 every weekend then i could see the point. I know many who race just fine with the stock 3/8in pickup week in and week out and have no issues. With good oil control (baffled pan/windage tray) you'll be fine. I would have him set the rod and main clearances at .0025 to allow for thermal expansion.

On the Dampner ; I'm not a fan of the fluid balancers. The elastomer style dampners work well and have never let me down. A friend of mine has seen a couple of busted cranks due to the fluid dampner and will not use them anymore. I trust his opinion on this. 


The price for that block seems reasonable given that it's been magged and looked over closely. The builder seems like a stand up guy so work with him on this. He has a vested interest in seeing this project through to your satisfaction....i doubt he will sell you junk given the magnitude of this build. 


The Comp pro-magnum rockers are excellent...you can't go wrong there. 


Looking forward to the progress pics and the dyno tune ! 



Ron

[joflaig]

On the Dampner ; I'm not a fan of the fluid balancers. The elastomer style dampners work well and have never let me down. A friend of mine has seen a couple of busted cranks due to the fluid dampner and will not use them anymore. I trust his opinion on this. 

I don't want to open the debate on this one, and I'm not an expert to have my own opinion, but your view does seems to be in the majority everywhere I've read so far.

[joflaig]

Well I got a lot of comments on the $800 price tag on the block so I talked to the machinist again just to double check. This does including the cleaning and magnafluxing. The particular block is at the standard bore. He was really not enthusiastic about doing a sonic check. He doesn't own the tools either and borrows them when he does need them. He was, of course, confident about the block and emphasised that we're only taking it to .030. He said a quarter of the blocks he picks up at swap meets end up in the trash. Sounds like they are pretty careful about what they use. I know opinions would differ on whether I should press on with this or not.

Anyhow for what I'm getting $800 seems pretty fair to me especially with no shipping or pick up cost.

We're switching to an ATI elastomer dampner. They are not cheap!

I emailed the outfit where I picked up this car last April. Keep in mind I did have it professionally inspected first. And to find these cracks in the block one would have had to have removed the intake manifold. And the engine was running fine. This was from their original ad:

"Sporting a fresh drivetrain with only 250 to 300 miles on it".

Based on what my machinist says about the condition of the pistons they may not have lied about it being newly rebuilt, but why on earth would someone have kept that block unless it was for the worst reasons?!

[joflaig]

Here's what the dealer said (I was very polite in my coorespondence with them):

"You may proceed how ever you feel is best but there will be no concessions made on the part of XXX. We had no way of knowing the block was in that condition and you have now had the vehicle for quite sometime now. I am sure you are aware that there is no way for you to prove that the damage was a condition that existed on or before the purchase date. Maybe you didn't have the antifreeze mixture right and the block got damaged while in your possession... there are just too many variables here. I have been in this business for quite sometime now and can tell you that this kind of stuff is just part of the old car game. If you cant deal with it then you are in the wrong hobby. In the past year alone, we have had to replace 3 motors and at least half a dozen transmissions due to failure while vehicles were in our possession. Not ONCE did we go back to the sellers and ask for anything. My suggestion would be to buy a well done crate motor with a warranty and get the car back on the road. Chasing after [us] for something will be a waste of time and effort, that I can assure you."

[Steve P.]

2 crappy thing here.

1) He's right. It will more than likely be a complete waste of time and money going after them.

2) He handled it like a bully.