Re: just contemplating my build... [UPDATED: 4/2/08] - ALL DYNO #s

[firefighter3931]

Question for Ron and everyone else, would 1.6 ratio rockers help in this situation? I suppose it might help some in the upper Rpm's, but if your not going to spin it past 6k then maybe its not worth it?

Dave, the 1.6 rockers would probably help a little but the downside is you need to run stiffer valvesprings to keep the valvetrain stable with the increased valve action. With hydraulic cams you are somewhat limited due to the lifter design...too much spring pressure and the lifters will collapse. On a fast rate hydraulic (Engle/ Comp XE hl series) my preference is for a 1.5 rocker for those reasons.


Ron

[joflaig]

I went down to the only mopar specialists in town this morning and talked to the owner for over
a half hour. I presented him with the list that you all helped me formulate here. He said I had
done my homework and that it looked like a really good, well thought-out build. At any rate, if someone like me can go into a engine shop and sound like I know what I'm talking about then it's definitely because I've been well educated! Thanks! 

The place I went to is called Kilpatrick Engine (http://www.kilpatrickengine.com). They were recommended by the resto shop and basically specialize in mopar. The owner runs several drag cars too. In fact on the shop floor he had a 528 hemi that had blown up after a couple hundred runs. There was also a #s matching hemi out of 67 GTX they were rebuilding and many 727s getting rebuilt as well. He walked me through their process and showed me all their equipment. I probably don't know all the tell tale things to watch for when checking out an engine shop, but I was impressed none the less.

One of the main things he suggested I change was the cam. He said to go to a Comp Cam, said something about the lobes being for chryslers. The profile he suggested was pretty close to the Engle.

He nixed the idea of a girdle and didn't think I should bother replacing the main caps, but that it wouldn't hurt if I did (I think I will).

He said that the heads should only need minimal work and no cnc. He also suggested a Comp rocker arm set and showed my how the oiling worked to an advantage with a set he had in the shop.

For the tranny he advised I go with a B&M flex plat, Red clutch and band, 5:1 lever and ANA ultimate sprag gear (I have no idea what that is!)

He had nothing negative to say about 440 source though he did have some kit in stock for a 520 that he said would work as well as the 512 kit. He said the Chinese made cranks used to be terrible, but are fine now. He said I should go with the Clevite 77's, H series rod bearings and I beam rods and ARP2000 rod bolts.

One other big thing was adding positraction. I have a '69 R/T automatic, which should have a 3.23 8 3/4 that does not have sure grip. He said the 8 3/4 should handle this whole setup without a problem. He said to stay away from Auburn for the sure grip. Anyone have any advice on rebuilding the rear end? I will go with 3.55s.

They don't have a dyno, but he said they have so much experience with combos like this they can pretty much dial it in and when the motor is broken in I can get it tweaked on a dyno later on. He was pretty much against dyno-ing a freshly built motor.

In terms of warranty, they will only warranty their own work, but If I come in with rod hanging out forget it. I guess this is probably always a very, very gray area.

Cost wise, he thought he could rebuild the tranny for about 900 bucks. This would include all the parts (probably not the converter, I would think?). On the labor for the motor he said I was looking at 35-40 hours at $86 an hour for about 3k. Does this sound right?

[Rolling_Thunder]

You'll love that cam....    I ran the K60/K64 110*  in an Indy headed 440 (very similar to your planned build) recently and it made gobs of torque and HP...    you'll love the Engle stick   

[firefighter3931]

One of the main things he suggested I change was the cam. He said to go to a Comp Cam, said something about the lobes being for chryslers. The profile he suggested was pretty close to the Engle.

The Engle cams are also ground for Chrysler engines....same as the Comp XE hl grinds that he is recommending. The xe285hl is pretty close to the Engle cam we picked out. I still like the Engle but it's your call....

He nixed the idea of a girdle and didn't think I should bother replacing the main caps, but that it wouldn't hurt if I did (I think I will).

I would still use billet steel caps and main studs along with a line bore....at 500+hp this is a good idea 

He said that the heads should only need minimal work and no cnc. He also suggested a Comp rocker arm set and showed my how the oiling worked to an advantage with a set he had in the shop.

A basic cleanup of the heads and guide clearance check/valvejob should be done. The Comp rockers are overkill with a hydraulic cam....you can spend the money if you want to but there won't be any performance improvement vs the ductile iron rockers. 

For the tranny he advised I go with a B&M flex plat, Red clutch and band, 5:1 lever and ANA ultimate sprag gear (I have no idea what that is!)

Those are all good trans upgrades. I would opt for the 4.2 lever as opposed to the 5.1 as it releases the bands earlier...basicly more street friendly. The bolt in sprag is a safety feature in case you break an axle/u-joint/driveshaft....it keeps the trans from exploding.  PTC or Turbo action can fix you up with a nice 2500-2800 stall.

One other big thing was adding positraction. I have a '69 R/T automatic, which should have a 3.23 8 3/4 that does not have sure grip. He said the 8 3/4 should handle this whole setup without a problem. He said to stay away from Auburn for the sure grip. Anyone have any advice on rebuilding the rear end? I will go with 3.55s.

The older clutch style suregrips are stronger and rebuildable...they are the better choice. Dr Diff can rebuild it for you and install new bearings, a ring and pinion and sure grip. I would send it out to him. 

They don't have a dyno, but he said they have so much experience with combos like this they can pretty much dial it in and when the motor is broken in I can get it tweaked on a dyno later on. He was pretty much against dyno-ing a freshly built motor.

In terms of warranty, they will only warranty their own work, but If I come in with rod hanging out forget it. I guess this is probably always a very, very gray area.

I would insist that the engine be dynoed. Most good engine builders won't have a problem with that and it's a good way to make sure the engine is properly broken in with a controlled environment. The engine can also be tuned for optimum performance and your fuel delivery/ignition curve will be spot on before you drop it in the car. If there's a problem with the engine it will show up while it's on the dyno and corrections can be made before you take delivery. The onus is on him to back up his macjhine work/assembly should something happen. The shop will be extra careful looking parts over and assembling the engine if they know that it will be going on the pump. If they won't dyno and break in the motor...find another shop that will.  There is a dyno in your area and these guys have used it....they can make it happen if they want to.

Cost wise, he thought he could rebuild the tranny for about 900 bucks. This would include all the parts (probably not the converter, I would think?). On the labor for the motor he said I was looking at 35-40 hours at $86 an hour for about 3k. Does this sound right?

Those prices seem in line allthough the $86/hr  shop rate seems a little high. If they do good work then it's worth it.



Ron

[joflaig]

Thanks Ron that is all really excellent advice. 

There are a couple of dynos in town and this shop even brings one in for a contest in the summer I think. He talked about some zinc thing so that the cam would essentially be "pre-broken" in. Is there any valid argument against letting a newly built engine open up on the dyno?

[firefighter3931]

He talked about some zinc thing so that the cam would essentially be "pre-broken" in.

The builder is referring to exteme pressure additives, namely Zinc & Phosphorus which are needed during the breakin and afterwards. This has been discussed numerous times here on the board. Bottom line ; the latest batch of passenger car oil formulations Suck and you need an additive to keep your cam/lifters happy.

Is there any valid argument against letting a newly built engine open up on the dyno?

Actually, there's no valid reason why it shouldn't be done. The first 20 minutes of the engine's life are the most critical. The cam forms a wear pattern with the lifters and the bearings and rings are worn in during this important time. The newer style Moly piston rings seat up very fast and the dyno operator can monitor all the critical engine functions while it's on the machine. Stuff like oil pressure, water temperature, air/fuel ratios and exhaust gas temperature will indicate that there might be something wrong if any of these values are out of whack. 

The engine can also be fine tuned while it's on the dyno ; timing curve and air/fuel ratios can be dialed in for best performance so there won't be any guesswork when you drop it in the car. With a build of this magnitude (and expense) the dyno break in (and tune) is a no brainer. You'll sleep much better at night knowing that all is right before dropping the engine into the car. You will also know how much power it makes and where that power comes in and where it peaks. 



Ron

[joflaig]

Yeah, he did mention the fast break-in moly rings.

So how does that work, they complete the build put it in a truck and go over to the dyno shop and test and tune themselves or with the folks who have the dyno? I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't want to see that first hand. This would be where they first fire it up, right?

[Challenger340]

Yeah, he did mention the fast break-in moly rings.

So how does that work, they complete the build put it in a truck and go over to the dyno shop and test and tune themselves or with the folks who have the dyno? I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't want to see that first hand. This would be where they first fire it up, right?

Thats basically what we do at our shop.

We send ALL ENGINES, when completed, just down the road to an Independant Dyno testing facility.

We will NOT even put a crank in a Block for ANYBODY, unless we're doing the engine complete, finished, and Dyno tested/Tuned !

We insist upon it !

And YES, we run the engine to MAXIMUM Horsepower/RPM as many times as possible AFTER BREAK-IN, in an 8 hr. day while tuning.

It's the only way we can PROVE a patent product, prior to the customer paying for his engine.

If ANYTHING is gonna go wrong, WE WANT TO KNOW FIRST ! Then it's our problem, NOT the customers.
Thats just "good business", and we're in the engine business !

We always try to attend the actual Dyno'ing of the engine, in our customers best interest, but time doesn't always permit, we're just too damn busy !

Customers are ALWAYS invited to attend the session ! It's their engine.

Anyways, we always attach an instruction program, specific to our criterion on the particular engine, for the Professional Dyno operator to follow & adhere to.
And believe me the guy is VERY Professional and good at what he does. Thats all he does is test engines, from all over, for various Race Teams.

Your shop should have no problems with the dyno session as stated above.

It's in EVERONE's best interest, theirs and yours, and most importantly, your Engines/Investment BEST INTEREST !

Bob out.

[firefighter3931]

Well said Bob....i like the way your shop does business. 

Joeflaig, talk with the builder and tell him you want to attend the dyno session and observe. 

It'll be a great learning experience for you. 



Ron

[joflaig]

I think I have a plan then, thanks!

[Steve P.]

It'll be a great learning experience for you. 



Ron

And one you will never forget.. 

This is definitely one for the books. When this one is done and dyno'd we will have to make sure it goes into Proven combo's..   

Ron, you should write a book. (Not that you haven't written more than a few on here allready).. 

[duo-stripe]

I'm still far from pinning down the exact details on my engine rebuild, but I do have some general, broader questions.


1. Would there be any argument at all for keeping the stock hp exhaust manifolds on a 500ci stroked 440, .30 over, runnng EZs or EZ-1s -- or ditch 'em?

2. Is there an intake/carb combo that will fit under the stock hood on a '69 with EZ-1 (max wedge) heads?

3. What would you do to tranny (it's an auto) with this motor? Beefier clutch?

4. Rear end is totally stock, any concerns here in terms of strength standing up to all the torque?

5. Do you think we're looking at 8mpg or 10mpg (I know we're missing tons of details still)? I am happy with 10mpg, but 8mpg (lawful driving behavior) starts to get a bit much.


Thanks guys -- and yes I've read, and re-read most posts on the board I could find related to this stuff!

I had a 500 stroker in my 69 RR with a mild cam, singleplane intake ( TM-7 ) and a DP 850 with original magnum exhaustmanifolds and original 906 heads; it wasn't a perfect combo; it had a little bog between 1000 and 1500 rpm, i think due to the intake. Midrange power was awesome and good but after approx. 4500-5000 rpm the engine would "stall" i don't know how to say it perfect in English, but it was just like all the power broke down above that rpm-range.
The big volume needs to breathe in my opinion. Good heads, good cam, good intake.
if you keep things on the moderate side you will get a fast engine that is good to drive in idle, midrange and will get a decent gasmileage.

good luck,
Marcel
the netherlands

[joflaig]

This is definitely one for the books. When this one is done and dyno'd we will have to make sure it goes into Proven combo's..   

I agree, and I will try and get as much detail in this thread as I can so others can get some value out of it. I wish I could speed up the whole process, but it's unlikely the engine will see the dyno until late Feb.

Speaking of dynos I called both places that have them in town. One shop will only dyno what they build. The other will do three pulls for $350 bucks. They said I could sit in, no problem. I'm not so sure this includes any tuning.

When the engine shop is done and has it ready for the dyno should it be started up for the first time and broken in strictly on the dyno?

[BrianShaughnessy]

Sounds like an adventure.   Enjoy the ride!  Not that I can or should  add anything but wtf       

What were the specifics of the 520 kit that this builder had?   Would he cut you a break to use it? 

Also for what it's worth... I posted a link with Barton's labor rates recently... it was $70 / hour for sake of comparison.  I'd imagine it's still valid.     They also posted a rate of $440 to install billet caps & studs and align bore/hone.   I paid more local but I felt better that it wasn't too far off.   

As for the rear...   if you saw any the last couple MA mags you might have seen my friend Rick building the 8.75 in the Runner.    He's using an MP aluminum chunk housing, NOS 3.55 gears, a tru-track diff, 1350 yoke, and 33 spline axles.  So far so good -  but we still haven't gotten it back on the track again either.   But that same investment will get you a Dana 60 from Dr. Diff.      

Oh well... good luck 

[Animal]

Great info Ron , always a joy to read your posts , very informative.

What was the reason you opted for a single plane intake , only ask as i've fitted a single plane on the 440 , but heard you loose low end torque , won't know  till i give her a blast.

[joflaig]

What were the specifics of the 520 kit that this builder had?   Would he cut you a break to use it? 

I don't recall the specs, I think he had it and just wanted to off load it.

As for the rear...   if you saw any the last couple MA mags you might have seen my friend Rick building the 8.75 in the Runner.    He's using an MP aluminum chunk housing, NOS 3.55 gears, a tru-track diff, 1350 yoke, and 33 spline axles.  So far so good -  but we still haven't gotten it back on the track again either.   But that same investment will get you a Dana 60 from Dr. Diff.      

Yeah, the goal here is more or less just replace the ring and pinion and swap in a sure-grip unit (clutch-type). Beyond that I don't want to go over board too much on the rear end. You could just keep going and going and yes in the end you have a Dana 60 or a new complete Moser something or other.

[firefighter3931]

Great info Ron , always a joy to read your posts , very informative.

What was the reason you opted for a single plane intake , only ask as i've fitted a single plane on the 440 , but heard you loose low end torque , won't know  till i give her a blast.

Thanks Adam 


The reason for the single plane is because the stroker makes so much bottom end power that in most cases the slight reduction in torque won't even be missed. Of course, the single plane also breathes better up top and a stroker needs all the air and fuel it can get.

There's nothing wrong with a single plane on a 440 as long as the rest of the combo is matched to it. My 446 has a single plane on it and the Street Dominator was a better choice than the Performer RPM for that specific build. If you have enough Cylinder head flow/Cam + gear & stall speed... the single plane will be a better choice. 


Ron

[Animal]

Thanks Ron, should be ok then.

[joflaig]

Good news and bad news. Just came back from the shop. The have finished my interior! I brought my camera, but there was no memory card, doh! Anyway, it's all black: new headliner, new carpet (lead septum underneath), black leather Corbeau TRS racing seats (seat frames chopped 2 inches), 5-point racing harnesses (black, with black shoulder pads) AND a custom fab-ed 4 point roll cage, with a cross bar from the top of the drivers side to the bottom of the passengers side and a harness bar which on the passenger side is hinged and has a pin in one side for easier access to the back seat. In addition there is a new Billet Specialties steering wheel. I also got a new Wildwood discs on all 4 corners, yehaw!

More good news: I brought the part number (2852838) for a '69 8 3/4 and we got under the car and checked it out. It seems like the whole rear axel was replaced, possibly in the early 80s they thought. The numbers we found were a 3 on one line then 2881488 and under that 82. The REALLY good news was that it looks like I already have a 3.55 sure-grip rear end. When the car was in neutral both wheels spun on the jackstand. Also, we put markers on one tire and turned the drive shaft. It took about 3 and a half turns to get the tire to go around once. Does this all sounds right to you guys? They are going to open it up just to check the condition. Lord knows you can't hear a problem in the rear end when you are driving this thing. At a minimum they thought I should replace the clutch pads.

The bad news was that it seems my steering box is on the way out. I just assumed the steering was a little loose because it was an older car. I have to research a new one. They mentioned something about "fast ratio". I have power steering.

[Steve P.]

FIRM FEEL. just FIRM FEEL.

[firefighter3931]

FIRM FEEL. just FIRM FEEL.

Firm feel does a nice job with steering boxes. 

Joflaig, sounds like you have a 3.55 suregrip centersection. There is a number on the driverside near the yoke and that number will tell us what case you have. It will be a 741/742/489....those are the last 3 numbers in the sequence. Which one do you have ?



Ron

[joflaig]

I went and ordered from Firm Feel after reading all the other posts on the board. I got the stage II '73 or later box with the large sector steering gear and a new pitman arm. I couldn't go with the fast ratio setup due to header clearance problems.

As for the #s I'll have to check on that next time I am over at the shop.

I sure saved a ton of money on the rear end though!

[Steve P.]

Very good. You will love it...

[joflaig]

Since I now have some cash freed up from not having to muck with a new posi and gears I though I'd use it to replace the shocks and springs. Based on all my reading here, the air shocks I have (a remnant from the 80s no doubt) don't seem to be a good thing for the body or for handling (why were they popular ).

Given this build is a "mild" mostly street setup my only goals for the strip with this would be to gain more traction at the line and for the street not to have an extremly hard ride (I can live with something that is somewhat hard). So, I was thinking SS springs (mp, eaton or espo?). If in the future I do get a set of drag radials for trips to the track, would that, in combination with my engine build and SS springs, create any problems for my 8 3/4 3.55 rear end?

I've seen a million recomendations for various brands of shocks. What would be a good combo here?

I am also interested in SS springs because I'd like to gain a couple inches of height in the rear for a raked stance.

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

I went with the MP SS springs and the Comp Engineering 3 way adjustable shocks. 


Ron