Re: just contemplating my build... [UPDATED: 4/2/08] - ALL DYNO #s

[firefighter3931]

Okay, guess I'm going with the 512 -- though I have seem comments that a 7.1 rod won't be as reliable over the long haul.

I don't see it as an issue....heck there are thousands of lowdeck strokers running around on the streets with no issues. The 451 build uses a piston that has a compression height around 1.30 or so. The 4.25/7.1 rod uses a 1.48 piston which has a longer skirt. 



Ron

[joflaig]

I think we're getting really close! 

Now, you had advised on Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod. What would you use for springs? And lastly, how would roller lifters fit into this picture (excluding cost)?

[firefighter3931]

Now, you had advised on Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod. What would you use for springs?

The stock E-head springs are fine with the Engle grind we picked out. 

And lastly, how would roller lifters fit into this picture (excluding cost)?

Roller lifters complicate the build. The roller cam requires a bronze distributor gear which is a 'wear" item and requires periodic replacement. The Roller cam will last forever so no worries there. The roller lifters require attention as well...the needle bearings are also a "wear" item and the lifters will require annual inspections. Once the needle bearings start to go the lifter will need to be rebuilt or replaced. The valvesprings will also have increased seat/open pressures and will wear out faster requiring more frequent replacement. The more agressive valve action will also accelerate wear on your valve seats/valves. A descent full roller rocker should be used with this type of cam (Harland Sharp/T&D/Jesel) and will run in the $700 range at the entry level.  If you're looking for a zero maintenance build this is not it. 

Granted, roller cams make excellent power....in most cases +25-30hp all things being equal. You have to ask yourself if that increased cost and maintenance is really worth the extra $$ and wrench time. 

This (roller cam) is not a simple oil change & tuneup type build....you need to stay on top of it and pay attention. 



Ron

[joflaig]

That's excellent info!

It sounds pretty nifty, but you are right it would not be for me.

Re-compiled list:

Use:
Primarily street/highway, couple times a year at the strip

Desire:
Better pickup off the line, more power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy (yeah, I know), fits stock hood, and lastly room for future growth (porting heads, etc)

Note: car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires


Block:
Sonic check
cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed


Engine:
-512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.250" stroke/7.100" rod), premium parts, balanced, dished pistons
-Holley Street Dominator carb (low rise single plane)
-Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Stage 1 cnc porting, Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod, stock springs
-Holley 950 dp HP series or a Proform 950hp carb (3" drop base air cleaner)
-Richmond or Strange 3.55 Gears (ring and pinion)
-2" TTI Headers
-MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan
-MP stroker Windage Tray

-Engle Cam (k60 intake lobe/ k62 exhaust lobe --split pattern grind-- on a 112* lsa)
--3 bolt flank
--288/291 advertised duration
--238/244 duration @ .050 valve lift
--.534/.539 lift
--112* lobe seperation

-compression ratio: 10.5:1
-160-180 Thermostat
-3 Bolt Timing Chain
-ARP Studs
-New Main caps (new ductile Iron or Billet steel?)


Tranny:
-External Tranny Cooler
-New Clutch
-Turbo Action Hemi 11" Torque Converter (2800 stall)


Misc:
-MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rmp rev limiter)
-MSD Blaster Coil
-MP Distribtor
-Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (3/8 in fuel line, 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank)
-High volume oil pump

[firefighter3931]

That looks like quite the list....Christmas will be coming early. 

A couple of other small things ;

(1) fuel pump pushrod
(2) Hardened oil pump drive
(3) Heavy duty flexplate for the converter and arp hardware.

Of course you will need a full gasket set and probably some other miscelaneous stuff....but that should get you going.




Ron

[joflaig]

Yup, that's for sure!


I'm still getting a lot of feedback from folks saying with what is now a 512 engine that the cam is too small. FWIW, I ran it by Comp Cams and they can back with this:

21-228-4 high lif (3 bolt)

285 297 ADV.
241 247 @50
.545 .545 LIFT 1.5
110 LSA
106 CENTERLINE

[firefighter3931]

Yup, that's for sure!


I'm still getting a lot of feedback from folks saying with what is now a 512 engine that the cam is too small. FWIW, I ran it by Comp Cams and they can back with this:

21-228-4 high lif (3 bolt)

285 297 ADV.
241 247 @50
.545 .545 LIFT 1.5
110 LSA
106 CENTERLINE

Yep, that one will work too...it's a little bigger on the .050 duration but is cut on a narrow(er) 110* lsa. Overall it would equal out and the performance would be pretty close....the idle might be a little more noticable but nothing radical. The Comp XE high lift cams are descent and make excellent power. 

I would have no problem running that one either.....but definately nothing bigger ! 

You're still good to go with the stock e-head springs. 



Ron

[joflaig]

Engle seems to have this really good rep, are the Comp numbers applicable to something Engle can put out?

[firefighter3931]

Engle seems to have this really good rep, are the Comp numbers applicable to something Engle can put out?

Yes, but it would have to be a custom grind which is no big deal. All of the shelf Engle cams are single pattern and that Comp is a split pattern like the custom Engle i originally posted. 

Ok, if you want to a little bigger.... then a K62/k64 on a 110* lsa is as big as i would go.

291/298 advertised
244/249@.050
.539/.557 lift
110* lsa

This would be very close to the Comp xe285hl that you linked to earlier....and would behave in much the same way.


Ron

[joflaig]

Great, I will take that under advisement.

I have to say, this board just wouldn't be the same without your presence!

[firefighter3931]

Great, I will take that under advisement.

Cool....either one will get the job done. 

That's as big as you will get me to commit to....any bigger and you're on your own. 

The guys on Moparts don't have to drive this car or put gas in the tank...you do, so remember that. 



Ron

[joflaig]

But it sounds like your preference would be with the Engle brand, right? I mean, if you had to choose...

Thanks.

[firefighter3931]

But it sounds like your preference would be with the Engle brand, right? I mean, if you had to choose...

Thanks.

Yep, i like the Engle hydraulics and the Comp XE solids....just my preference. Ask any member here if they're happy with their Engle cam....there are several who have made the jump and never looked back. 

I've also recommended the Comp XE solids to a few members with excellent results....but those are more agressive builds than you will have...more stall speed and steeper gearing. 



Ron

[joflaig]

Well at least someone over at moparts finally said the latest combo would work, though they prefered a 248/252 @.050 and at least 540 lift, they also said it was "close enough". 

[firefighter3931]

Well at least someone over at moparts finally said the latest combo would work, though they prefered a 248/252 @.050 and at least 540 lift, they also said it was "close enough". 

Yep, i read the thread....i know most of those guys. Zippy and I have met several times and Streetwize posts here as well. Both are smart dudes...but like anything in engine building you will get lots of opinions. 

One guy posted on that thread is running a hydraulic roller with a little less duration than your "revised  cam" and seems very happy with it. Interestingly enough his is built for the same  purpose that yours will be. 


Ron

[joflaig]

Well I guess the next step is talking to the machine shop, giving Porter Racing a call and to start ordering parts!

I can't wait  !

[firefighter3931]

Ya, the fun begins  Make sure you have the block sonic checked as i mentioned earlier. You don't need to bore it more than .030....less is better. Once the block checks out then you can pick a bore diameter to go with the rest of your rotating assembly.

When you talk to Dwayne tell him i said Hello. 

Keep us up to speed as things progress....this will be lots of fun. 


Ron

[joflaig]

Will do. This will be my winter project.

------------------------------------

So just to re-iterate, this is the "final" list:

Use:
Primarily street/highway, couple times a year at the strip

Desire:
Better pickup off the line, more power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy (yeah, I know), fits stock hood, and lastly room for future growth (porting heads, etc)

Note: car has power breaks, 275/60/15 tires


Block:
Sonic check, pressure test
cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed, squared


Engine:
512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.250" stroke/7.100" rod), premium parts, balanced, dished pistons
Holley Street Dominator Carb (low rise single plane)
Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Stage 1 cnc porting, Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod, stock springs
Holley 950 dp HP series or a Proform 950hp carb (3" drop base air cleaner)
Richmond or Strange 3.55 Gears (ring and pinion)
2" TTI Headers
MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan
MP stroker Windage Tray

Engle Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust lobe --split pattern grind-- on a 110* lsa) -- custom grind
-3 bolt flank
-291/298 advertised
-244/249@.050
-.539/.557 lift
-110* lsa


compression ratio: 10.5:1
160-180 Thermostat
3 Bolt Timing Chain
ARP Studs
New Main caps (aluminum, new ductile Iron or Billet steel?)


Tranny:
External Tranny Cooler
New Clutch
Turbo Action Hemi 11" Torque Converter (2800 stall)
Heavy duty flexplate and ARP hardware.


Misc:
MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rmp rev limiter)
MSD Blaster Coil
MP Distribtor
Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (3/8 in fuel line, 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank)
Fuel pump pushrod
High volume Oil Pump
Hardened Oil Pump Drive

[firefighter3931]

 

[Charger-Bodie]

Great, I will take that under advisement.

I have to say, this board just wouldn't be the same without your presence!

Man that for sure !! ( the comment about Ron)

on a side note my stroker has a comp cams 501 lift stick and i love it , true it could have been bigger maybe but it is truely an animal the way it is

[joflaig]

what's your cam profile? hydraulic?

[Charger-Bodie]

what's your cam profile? hydraulic?

its a comp hyd. 292h cam i dont have the rest of the specs in front of me right now (they are in a file at the shop) Ill try to post them tommarow its 292 dur 501 lift intake and exhaust ols school grind

just to let you know id go with the stuff that Ron reccomended as thats who id ask for the same info he knows hes stuff WAY better than most people who think they do!!

[firefighter3931]

The comp 292/501 is a descent cam...single pattern grind ;

292 advertised
244@.050
.501 lift
110* lsa

This is similar to the old MP 509 grind which was an SSH44 Racer brown cam. The new MP cam is bigger....more duration, basicly a drag race cam for a stock headed 440.


Joflaig....yours will have similar characteristics (as Brian's) in terms of idle qulity/street manners but it will make more power due to the faster valve action. The Engle cams are designed for a mopar .904 lifter diameter while that Comp is a generic GM grind.



Ron

[supserdave]

Everything looks good man, good luck with the build!

If your motor turns out like Brian's, you better save a little extra money this spring for some new tires .

Question for Ron and everyone else, would 1.6 ratio rockers help in this situation? I suppose it might help some in the upper Rpm's, but if your not going to spin it past 6k then maybe its not worth it?

[Charger-Bodie]

by the way the reason i went with the 501 cam was because i wanted to stick with stock rockers, which were changed to ductile rollers soon after it was built anyway!