Re: just contemplating my build... [UPDATED: 4/2/08] - ALL DYNO #s

[joflaig]

I'm still far from pinning down the exact details on my engine rebuild, but I do have some general, broader questions.


1. Would there be any argument at all for keeping the stock hp exhaust manifolds on a 500ci stroked 440, .30 over, runnng EZs or EZ-1s -- or ditch 'em?

2. Is there an intake/carb combo that will fit under the stock hood on a '69 with EZ-1 (max wedge) heads?

3. What would you do to tranny (it's an auto) with this motor? Beefier clutch?

4. Rear end is totally stock, any concerns here in terms of strength standing up to all the torque?

5. Do you think we're looking at 8mpg or 10mpg (I know we're missing tons of details still)? I am happy with 10mpg, but 8mpg (lawful driving behavior) starts to get a bit much.


Thanks guys -- and yes I've read, and re-read most posts on the board I could find related to this stuff!

[firefighter3931]

I'm still far from pinning down the exact details on my engine rebuild, but I do have some general, broader questions.


1. Would there be any argument at all for keeping the stock hp exhaust manifolds on a 500ci stroked 440, .30 over, runnng EZs or EZ-1s -- or ditch 'em?

2. Is there an intake/carb combo that will fit under the stock hood on a '69 with EZ-1 (max wedge) heads?

3. What would you do to tranny (it's an auto) with this motor? Beefier clutch?

4. Rear end is totally stock, any concerns here in terms of strength standing up to all the torque?

5. Do you think we're looking at 8mpg or 10mpg (I know we're missing tons of details still)? I am happy with 10mpg, but 8mpg (lawful driving behavior) starts to get a bit much.


Thanks guys -- and yes I've read, and re-read most posts on the board I could find related to this stuff!

Good questions....here's my  fwiw


(1) on a stroker build you want it to be able to exhale properly. That means at the very least a 1 7/8in header and in most cases 2in is better.

(2) The ICH dual plane can be opened up to a max wedge intake port....that will clear the stock hood with a drop base air cleaner. I only run Holley style carbs 

(3) trans should be done up with a heavy duty rebuild and some type of performance valvebody. Deep pan and tranny cooler along with the appropriate stall for the engine combo.

(4) If it's an 8 3/4 it will last forever as long as the car doesn't hook. Once you throw slicks into the mix all bets are off. You will eventually break it if you're racing. 

(5) milage ?  that'll depend on how much you keep your foot out of it, how much gear the car has and tire diameter as well. How well the engine is tuned will make a big difference also.



Ron

[joflaig]

Thanks, just the man I was hoping to hear from!

So assume I go with 2" TTIs and EZ-1s, and a ported Indy dual plan intake (how much height would a girdle add?), then two big questions I'm left with are cam and carb. There are just too many options with those for a novice to follow intelligently and make a choice on. I guess, it's the same old story:  it will mainly be a cruiser and only see the track a few times a year (and not with slicks). I don't want to have to continuely tune it either. Given all that, I'm trying to find the combo that will make it the most fun to drive on the street and highway, but still see something in the 11s (and a bit lower if had I the right suspension, tires and gearing) at the strip.

Thoughts?

[firefighter3931]

Thanks, just the man I was hoping to hear from!

So assume I go with 2" TTIs and EZ-1s, and a ported Indy dual plan intake (how much height would a girdle add?), then two big questions I'm left with are cam and carb. There are just too many options with those for a novice to follow intelligently and make a choice on. I guess, it's the same old story:  it will mainly be a cruiser and only see the track a few times a year (and not with slicks). I don't want to have to continuely tune it either. Given all that, I'm trying to find the combo that will make it the most fun to drive on the street and highway, but still see something in the 11s (and a bit lower if had I the right suspension, tires and gearing) at the strip.

Thoughts?

Yep, the 2in tti's and ICH dual plane opened up to MW would be fine. The girdle will not add any height to the deck but it will push the oilpan a bit lower. We installed the girdle on my buddy's 440 last winter and it cleared the centerlink just fine. I would use the Hemi 6qt reproduction pan with an MP stroker windage tray for this type of build.

This type of build won't have any problems running in the 11's. 

I guess you need to figure out how much hwy driving you want to do then pick a gear/tire diameter that you can live with. The cam will have to be matched to the stall speed/gearing for best performance.

I use Dwayne at Porter Racing Heads....he is an Indy dealer and a head porter. He can port the dual plane and fix you up with a set of heads. If you need contact info just ask.

On the cam ; are you wanting to run hydraulic or solid ?


Ron

[joflaig]

I've seen Porter mentioned before here, so I would probably go through them.

What would the result be leaving the stock gears? It's primarily a street, not strip car. I'm running 275/60/15 tires on the rear.

[firefighter3931]

I've seen Porter mentioned before here, so I would probably go through them.

What would the result be leaving the stock gears? It's primarily a street, not strip car. I'm running 275/60/15 tires on the rear.

What are your stock gears ? With a 275/60/15 i would want to run at least a 3.55 gear. Very manageable on the hwy and with a big stroker it will have plenty of grunt off the line. The key will be selecting the proper cam/converter to match it up.

A "tight" 3000 stall from Turbo Action for the converter would be my choice. 

Solid or hydraulic cam ?


Ron

[joflaig]

I've never cracked it open to check the gear, but judging by the drive and the history of the car when I got it, I'd guess they are factory stock size. I don't recal on a '69 RT if that makes them 3.55 or not.

Once we get into the world of cams I get less and less knowledgable. What are the primary postive/negatives between hydraulic and solid?

[firefighter3931]

What are the primary postive/negatives between hydraulic and solid?

Solid cams are more stable at higher rpm's. Generally speaking they make more torque/horsepower given the same specs. They do require an adjustable valvetrain and periodic maintenance. (lash adjustment)

Hydraulic cams are less maintenance but in some cases require an adjustable valvetrain as well. Once the preload is set though... the adjustments are done. The downside is lifter collapse, lifter pump up and reduced high speed stability. For most mild applicaions these are non issues....but when you step it up then there can be problems.

Personally, i prefer a solid lifter cam in a performance build....a little more maintenance but less chance for problems. 

Ron

[joflaig]

What is lash adjustment? Is this something accessed without pulling the moror?

What do factory motors come with these days and do people with race motors almost always go with solid cams as a rule (I'm sure this could invoke endless debate)?

Since this is primarily a street car, I'm trying for build that requires less maintainence and results in excellent reliablity. My tinkering skills are limited.

[joflaig]

...actually reading up on this topic, I can see a hydraulic cam will be the right choice for me.

[NYCMille]

firefighter3931 - just wanted to say I always get a little bit of an education when reading your posts.

thanks man!

[terrible one]

firefighter3931 - just wanted to say I always get a little bit of an education when reading your posts.

thanks man!

Agreed! 

[firefighter3931]

firefighter3931 - just wanted to say I always get a little bit of an education when reading your posts.

thanks man!

Agreed! 

Thanks fellas ! 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

What is lash adjustment? Is this something accessed without pulling the moror?

What do factory motors come with these days and do people with race motors almost always go with solid cams as a rule (I'm sure this could invoke endless debate)?

Since this is primarily a street car, I'm trying for build that requires less maintainence and results in excellent reliablity. My tinkering skills are limited.

...actually reading up on this topic, I can see a hydraulic cam will be the right choice for me.

Ok.... back on topic ; As you've discovered lash is a periodic valve adjustment that verifies the clearance between the rocker arm and valve tip. It needs to be checked every so often....on most street builds that means once a season. The whole operation takes 30-40 minutes and is easy to do.

If you don't want to pull the valve covers once a season then the hydraulic cam is what you will want. 

Based on your driving style and intended use for this engine a hydraulic cam will work fine. 

The MW Indy EZ's are probably overkill as well.....you could easily get by with a set of mildly worked Edelbrock RPM cylinder heads and be several hundred dollars ahead. On a street build the "standard" port window on a stroker makes for one mean torquey bad azz motor. Just ask Brian ( 1hot68) how he likes his. 


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,35989.0.html



Ron

[joflaig]

I well aware it's over kill, that's the whole idea! 

That being said, though, I'm still trying to balance things in such a way as I don't get killed at the pump. For some reason I don't mind spending thousands on the engine, but having to fill up ever 80 miles would just kill me.

Why, what do you think the torque and hp rating would be given the basline "feature set" I've decided on up to this point?

[firefighter3931]

I well aware it's over kill, that's the whole idea! 

Well if you're gonna overkill it you need to match the rest of the components or it will be a poor performer.  That means stepping up the cam so that it works with the rest of the overkill parts. 

With a big MW port the engine's powerband will be moved up several hundred rpm and if you run a small cam it's defeating the purpose, inmo. 

Big ports make big power...no debating that. But, at what cost ? Low end power ? Based on how you intend to drive this car (3.55 gears/mild stall) you would be better served with a small high velocity intake port vs a slower high flowing port that is better suited to high rpm operation.

I'm not saying that a mw port won't work on your build but it wouldn't make much more power over a standard port given the parameters of the build. Put it this way ; using a mild hydraulic cam won't allow the bigger flowing MW ports to really shine and will cause a loss of bottom end power (torque) which is where this engine will be spending most of it's time.

A 512 with a set of e-heads will blow the tires off at will. It'll make in the 550hp/600tq range pretty easy with a nice flat torque curve....there will be power everywhere.....idle > redline. 

Hey, i like the Indy EZ's....they are a fantastic head but i'm not convinced that they would best serve your needs.  Ultimately it's your money and your choice though. 

It would be nice if you could go for a ride in Brian's car....the power of a well sorted out stroker is quite shocking your first time dropping the hammer. 



Ron

[joflaig]

Thanks for your all your thoughtful insights!

Your notion of 'power everywhere' is exactly what I'm after.

I can defintely see your point. Perhaps I should stick with the standard EZs. It's very difficult to balance all of these competing things! But it does seem antithetical to me to throw new heads on an engine that aren't ported! I imagine if I went with EZs I'd also be able to get more juice out of them in the future, if I chose to, as opposed to the bandwidth you might have with say RPMs.

[firefighter3931]

Perhaps I should stick with the standard EZs. It's very difficult to balance all of these competing things! But it does seem antithetical to me to throw new heads on an engine that aren't ported! I imagine if I went with EZs I'd also be able to get more juice out of them in the future, if I chose to, as opposed to the bandwidth you might have with say RPMs.

Joflaig, if you're thinking about stepping up in the future then the std port EZ is the way to go. Along with the ICH dual plane which is also std port it will make a pretty torquey combo. When you step it up.... then the heads & intake could be opened up....for the Big upper HP power number.  Of course the cam, stall and rear end gears will need to be upsized when that time comes.

Fwiw, lots of guys race very effictively with the RPM heads and they can support 700hp fully ported in a max-effort build. However it would be easier to get there with a better flowing head. 


Ron


Ps. I would still use PRH for the Indy EZ's....he can do a basic prep job on them and look for any potential issues. The guide clearance and valve job allways needs some work....this applies to any aftermarket head. Dwayne won't send something out unless it's 100% ready to go. 

[max]

Ron, you have put alot of great info into this build.

but i have to be concerned with the commit that was made about him worring about gas milage. that makes me think that the whole combo as a package will not be matched right and will end in it not living up to it's full potential and may even end up as a disappointment.

grainted the stroker will have gobs of bottom end torque but as you mentioned it will need a good bit of cam which sounds like it will need to be a custom if he is wanting a hyd and the convertor will need to match that cam plus the gears need to be atleast 3.55 if not a tad bit lower if he runs a tall tire.

all of this togeather is not a recipe for gas milage. 

[joflaig]

I have no illusions about the worsened mileage. I know you can't avoid that, I'm just trying to keep things somewhat balanced so it's tolerable. You can't always have your cake and eat it too. With prices like they are, though, you can't help but think about it!

From everything I've learned, though, it does seem like the cam, torque converter and gear choices will play a very big role in the end.

At any rate, my list is certainly getting a lot more refined thanks to all your input! 

Block:
sonic check
.030 overbore
decked (what is "zero" decked)

New parts:
500ci stroker kit from 440 Source, all the premium parts, balanced (not clear on piston choice)
ICH dual plane intake manifold
indy ez heads (standard and fully assembled from indy)
holley 950dp HP series or a proform 950hp
3.55 gears (275/60/15 tires)
TTI 2" headers
Hemi 6qt reproduction pan
MP stroker windage tray

Tranny:
external tranny cooler
beefier clutch
Turbo Action torque converter (not sure on the stall yet)

Open Questions:
comp cams hydraulic cam (enough vacum for power breaks?)
compression ratio?
thermostat setting?
new timing chain?
aluminium main caps (main studs)?
msd ignition?
distribtor?
rev limiter?
fuel pump?


AND I know I am still missing a lot!

[max]

unfortunatly we have to be somewhat concerned over gas not only in the mpg but how poor it is getting as far as the amount of compression we can run in these older engines.

joflaig, the parts list looks good and i stand corrected on the gear ratio. a 3.55 gear will work well with 275/60/15 tires, i ran the same gear and tire combo with my challenger until i tore the gear up and it did very well, coarse my engine isn't 500 cid which is a plus in your favor.

the cam is going to be a major player since you not only have a large displacement engine but also power brakes.

Ron will give you a better idea on one, but more then likely the cam will need alot of lift and very little duration and a wide centerline. something around a 114 degrees.

i can't remember off the top of my head but if those EZ heads are aluminum then i would shoot for 10.1 compression, that will give you a good ratio with those heads and it will still be pump gas friendly.

one piece of advice on the timing set and cam, be sure to have the cam degreed in according to the cam manufactors specs. i have seen more then one way off in the past
and it will really hurt the performace of an engine.

[joflaig]

thanks for the input Max.

[firefighter3931]

Open Questions:
comp cams hydraulic cam (enough vacum for power breaks?)
compression ratio?
thermostat setting?
new timing chain?
aluminium main caps (main studs)?
msd ignition?
distribtor?
rev limiter?
fuel pump?


AND I know I am still missing a lot!

The list looks good....you've done your homework. I would order the heads and intake from PRH as he is a INDY dealer and is quite familiar with them. They should be inspected and corrected if needed. No, they will not be perfect out of the box....none of them are ; Edelbrock included. 

The Cam will be custom for sure. Like Max said a wide LSA grind will widen out the powerband, make lots of vacuum (power brakes) and be easy to tune. The Engle hydraulic profiles are awesome. I can look and come up with a custom stick if you wish. 

Compression in the 10-10.5:1 ratio with a dished piston will be required. Tight quench builds (.040-.060 piston to head clearance) make more power and are less prone to pre-detonation with pump gas. It pays to science out the shortblock in this area....the last thing you want is to have to mix in race fuel. There's no need for that if you do you homework and plan it out well. 

A 160-180 thermostat works fine.

A 3 bolt timing chain is my preference. The cam can be ordered with a 3 bold flank and i like Comp for the timing chain/gear set.

The stock caps are fine for this type of build but the mains need to be studded and align bored. Arp for the studs. If you're really planning to step it up in the future an aluminum cap should be considered so you don't have to tear it down later to add them.

I use the MP distributor with a MSD box and blaster coil. The MSD 6al has a rev limiter and comes with a 6000 rpm chip which is all you will need.

The Carter 120gph "street" pump is plenty for this combo. It's a mechanical pump. I would be looking at 3/8 in fuel line and a 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank.


Fuel economy won't be too bad with this combo as long as you keep your foot out of it. Having the engine set up for strong vacuum at cruising speeds will help bigtime. A big part of that is choosing the right cam so that the engine isn't lugging at lower throttle positions (hwy cruise rpm) and the converter is efficient enough to be locked up reducing slippage.


Ron

[joflaig]

Wow Ron, I am in your debt!

Yes, any more specifics you can provide about what you might envision in terms of cam would be appreciated. It's always good to go in armed when you visit the speed shop.

So given my overall goals of more power across the band, low-mid 11s with street tires and suspension (and better with slicks, etc), reliablity, low maintenance, and lastly *decent* fuel economy do you think everythng we've come up with so far foots the bill?

Thanks.

[471_Magnum]

I'm going to chime in on the fuel "economy" with my $0.02.

You'll never see double digits around town with that combo, even if you tuned it to the edge and drove like you had an egg under your right foot.

That said, invest in a wideband O2, a drill index, a jet box and do a whole lot of homework and you might get 14 mpg on the highway assuming 3.55 gearing or taller.

No out-of-the-box carb is going to give you decent performance AND fuel economy. Budget for some dyno-tuning at a reputable shop that knows carbs.

Or invest in a 40 gallon fuel cell.