to stroke or not to stroke, finishing off combo

[dukeboy_318]

Have a 400 bb, 77 casting with 346 heads, was thinking to build this combo http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,35458.0.html
or stroke it to 512 and use 440 source heads(which im planning on using either way)

[mally69]

I will recommend the same to you as firefighter has done for me...  Contact Dwayne Porter from Porter Racing Heads his number is 802-951-1955.  He will absolutley lead you in the correct direction. and he also will custom grind you a cam for your exact build and is a great guy to deal with.   Good prices, also very competitive...I highly recommend him 

[firefighter3931]

If i was going to do a 400 based stroker....the 471 would be my choice for several reasons. Personally, I'm not a fan of the 512 in a lowdeck motor... it's more of a race type build. For a street/strip deal the 471 will last longer and make excellent power.

Dwyane is great to deal with for the heads and cam. 

Inmo, the Edelbrock RPM heads are fine for this type of build. 



Ron

[AKcharger]

I went with the 470 'cause the piston skirts are longer...longer engine life

[dukeboy_318]

If i was going to do a 400 based stroker....the 471 would be my choice for several reasons. Personally, I'm not a fan of the 512 in a lowdeck motor... it's more of a race type build. For a street/strip deal the 471 will last longer and make excellent power.

Dwyane is great to deal with for the heads and cam. 

Inmo, the Edelbrock RPM heads are fine for this type of build. 



Ron

im planning on the 440source heads simply because they flow the same numbers and cost less.  that and if im buying most of my othe parts from them, itll save  on shipping cost too.  Im mainly wanting this motor to last a few years until I can save up for something better.  Considering that i wont be driving 10000 miles on it a year or anything like that, im thinking that the 512 maybe the best bang for the buck. will wait and gather more opinions first though.  Thanks for responding guys

[dukeboy_318]

well Ron after reading what you said, i done some calling and research, and you are correct, shouldnt have questioned it but yes a 471 seems to me to be sufice.  my goal is 500+ hp, and for around 550 ft lbs, what do you think i could get on pump gas from a 471??  the charger will see about 50/50 on street and strip, 727, 8.75 with roughly 3.23s or 3.55s tops, not use on tires.  This is going into a 74 charger btw.  Id like to hit low 11s with it.

[471_Magnum]

Your power goal should be easily achievable.

Getting into the 11's, much less low 11's is a far loftier goal. That's really honkin' in a heavy-weight '74 Charger. You'll have the power, but you'll never get there on street tires and stock suspension.

[firefighter3931]

well Ron after reading what you said, i done some calling and research, and you are correct, shouldnt have questioned it but yes a 471 seems to me to be sufice.  my goal is 500+ hp, and for around 550 ft lbs, what do you think i could get on pump gas from a 471??  the charger will see about 50/50 on street and strip, 727, 8.75 with roughly 3.23s or 3.55s tops, not use on tires.  This is going into a 74 charger btw.  Id like to hit low 11s with it.

I'm glad you did a little research.  I was ll ready to type out a long response about side loading and short piston skirts and their effects on longevity in street based type builds....blah, blah, blah.... You saved me a bunch of typing....lol ! 


That power level is pretty easy to achieve with a 471....just takes good planning and proper parts selection.  You will need to go with an aftermarket aluminum head and the usual headers/carb/intake manifold upgrades. Of course the cam and converter need to be matched to the engine and final drive ratio (rear end gear + tire diameter) to make it all work well together. 


The engine will make enough power for mid-low 11's....getting the power to the ground is another story. You will have to work on the chassis to make it hook well. 



Ron

[dukeboy_318]

im going to put subframe connectors and ss springs, some adjustable shocks, maybe some ladder bars if thatll help.  470 is a safer bet, i kinda got bit by the hp bug afterridding in a friends 440 (stroked to what, he wont tell) cuda that runs 9s in the quarter and is barely streetlegal, wont be soon. anyway, what parts for that power would you reccomend???

[dukeboy_318]

now that ive decided to go 472, thanks ron btw,  which kit should i get?

400 >> 470. (3.915" stroke/6.535" rod) Stroker Kits Available:

Bore Size:  Dish (-) or  Dome (+) CC's Compression Height: Distance Below Deck:  65CC 72CC 75CC 78CC 84CC 86CC 88CC Kit Part#:
4.350"
(.010 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.21 10.49 10.22 9.96 9.48 9.33 9.19 400.470.5060
4.375"
(.035 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.32 10.60 10.32 10.06 9.58 9.43 9.28 400.470.5070
4.350"
(.010 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.36 9.75 9.52 9.30 8.89 8.76 8.63 400.470.5074
4.360"
(.020 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.40 9.80 9.56 9.34 8.92 8.79 8.65 400.470.5075
4.375"
(.035 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.46 9.86 9.62 9.39 8.98 8.85 8.72 400.470.5076
4.350"
(.010 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 12.97 12.00 11.63 11.29 10.66 10.47 10.29 400.470.5071
4.360"
(.020 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.03 12.06 11.69 11.34 10.71 10.52 10.34 400.470.5072
4.375"
(.035 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.10 12.13 11.75 11.41 10.77 10.58 10.39 400.470.5073

[Hot_Rodder]

Well, loks like you are really after this 512 I'm gonna build, lol. Maybe I need to step mine on up to that 700 horse power build? LOL.

[dukeboy_318]

no, just local idiot with a 88 mustang 5.0 that thinks his car is unbeatable, ive seen it run, dont know ets, but its fairly quick but i think a stock hemi car or even a mild cam in a 440 would stomp it.  They guy is running edelbrock heads, and 9.5:1 compression, performer intake and 600 cfm carb and a mild cam, but stock exhuast and trans,  , its got a good suspenison and street drags, that helps it hook which is why he beats most ricers he goes up against. claims his car is unbeatable and runs 8s never can pull out a timeslip though and im sick of him running his mouth on mopars. My bet is it might, might run low 13s,  maybe 12s, guy owns a performance shop which is know for extremely high prices and stupid mechanics that install the parts.  anyway being one of the very very very few mopar muscle owners in my area, its time to put his mustang on notice. once i get it in the car, im going to get a good suspension and tires on my so that it hooks and then we'll see.  My hope is to run lows 11s to high 10 second quarters in a 3700 lb charger.   

[Hot_Rodder]

I hear that. As part of your rear suspension, I'm assuming you're running the 8 3/4 like most of us. Look into this:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/newpr834adpi.html I plan on replacing the facty set up with one of these, so.... This will really help, or at least should really help....
Also: http://www.magnumforce.com/store/detail.asp?ProductID=3108&CategoryID=19&BrandID=&Category=&SubCategory=&Search=&Page= For what ever reason they don't list these for '72, figures.....

[firefighter3931]

now that ive decided to go 472, thanks ron btw,  which kit should i get?

400 >> 470. (3.915" stroke/6.535" rod) Stroker Kits Available:

Bore Size:  Dish (-) or  Dome (+) CC's Compression Height: Distance Below Deck:  65CC 72CC 75CC 78CC 84CC 86CC 88CC Kit Part#:
4.350"
(.010 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.21 10.49 10.22 9.96 9.48 9.33 9.19 400.470.5060
4.375"
(.035 over) -17
(Dish) 1.480" -.007" 11.32 10.60 10.32 10.06 9.58 9.43 9.28 400.470.5070
4.350"
(.010 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.36 9.75 9.52 9.30 8.89 8.76 8.63 400.470.5074
4.360"
(.020 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.40 9.80 9.56 9.34 8.92 8.79 8.65 400.470.5075
4.375"
(.035 over) -27
(Dish) 1.485" -.002" 10.46 9.86 9.62 9.39 8.98 8.85 8.72 400.470.5076
4.350"
(.010 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 12.97 12.00 11.63 11.29 10.66 10.47 10.29 400.470.5071
4.360"
(.020 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.03 12.06 11.69 11.34 10.71 10.52 10.34 400.470.5072
4.375"
(.035 over) -4
(Flat-top) 1.485" -.002" 13.10 12.13 11.75 11.41 10.77 10.58 10.39 400.470.5073

Dukeboy, ideally you will want a flattop piston build with as close to zero deck as possible (tight quench = pump gas  ) and a static compression ratio in the 10.5-10.7 range. You will have to take the block to the machineshop and have the bores measured to see what you've got....then pick the correct kit with the corresponding bore diameter. 

My hope is to run lows 11s to high 10 second quarters in a 3700 lb charger.

To make that happen you will have to step things up ; 4.10 gears + 3500 stall.....and of course the right cam to make it all work well together. 



Ron

[dukeboy_318]

what would it run with 3.55s, i still want this thing to be streetable and not run 5k at 70 on the highway

[max]

dukeboy_318, i'm not ignoring the post but just sitting back and learning a thing or two myself.

the 4.10 gear and 3500 stall convertor with 15" tires should put you in the 3200-3500 rpm range at 55 mph which is livable.

the question you have to make up your mind is, do you want a hot street car with little highway use or a street car that will run great on the highway.

it's very hard to have a 50/50 car and as a older racer once told me, the price it takes to build such a car it's cheaper to build 2 cars, one for the street and one for the strip.

[firefighter3931]

Good advice from Max...as usual.  As far as hwy rpm's are concerned....a 3.91 gear with a 28in tall tire is very livable. It's just a bit steeper than a 3.55 with a stock height tire.  Like Max said....you need to make some compromises if it's a dual purpose car....or buy yourself a gear vendors overdrive....then you can have your cake and eat it too. 


Ron

[dukeboy_318]

it wont see the highway very much, just if something happens to my daily driver, so ill probably go 4.10s in the rear with maybe a suregrip to help with traction, already found the subframe connectors, springs and traction bars.  Just have to find the right shocks for it now too.  once i get the specs back from the machine shop, im going to call lunati and have them reccomend a cam to go with the stroker package.  Max, did finally make up my mind, car will be a stock looking strip car, meaning itll see the majority of its life on the strip with the occasional streep cruise during nice weather.  thanks for the advice.

[max]

it wont see the highway very much, just if something happens to my daily driver, so ill probably go 4.10s in the rear with maybe a suregrip to help with traction.

to be honest there wouldn't be much use of building a stoker or anyother performance engine in mind with out a good suregrip to transfer the power.

for what your going to do the 4.10's should work great, i wouldn't go any higher then a 3.91 with what you have in mind.

[max]

....or buy yourself a gear vendors overdrive....then you can have your cake and eat it too. 


Ron

with all the buzz about those overdrive units, that would be the ticket.

i just love spending other peoples money.

[Hot_Rodder]

i just love spending other peoples money.

Yeah, that does seem easy to do

[firefighter3931]

it wont see the highway very much, just if something happens to my daily driver, so ill probably go 4.10s in the rear with maybe a suregrip to help with traction, already found the subframe connectors, springs and traction bars.  Just have to find the right shocks for it now too.  once i get the specs back from the machine shop, im going to call lunati and have them reccomend a cam to go with the stroker package.  Max, did finally make up my mind, car will be a stock looking strip car, meaning itll see the majority of its life on the strip with the occasional streep cruise during nice weather.  thanks for the advice.

The 4.10's with a 28in tire are manageable on the hwy cruising at 60 mph....i've done it before. You will want to run a good drag radial like the MT ET street radials which are DOT legal and hook like a slick at the track. A 275/60/15 on a 15x8 rim will fit in there fine....that's a common wheel/tire combo for most 3rd gen Chargers. The SS springs don't need any help (traction bars) but i would use a descent 3 way adjustable drag shock. Comp Engineering sells a shock that works well on this type of application. When you install the new springs use a good poly bushing...front/back. 


Ron

[dukeboy_318]

well, i thought id post a couple pics of the car and motor itself so that everyone knows whats its going into.

[dukeboy_318]

some more

[dukeboy_318]

i finished taking apart the bottom end and noticed that the rod caps had numbers stamped on them but cylinders 1-4 were not matched up to the numbers on the caps, for example, cylinder 1 had a 3 on its main cap, cylinder 2 had 4, 3 had a 2 and 4 had a 1,  5-8 were matching,  any ideas, could this have caused any problems   waiting on my micrometer to arrive so i can check the bore, but according to the numbers stamped on the inside of the pistons, they are factory pistons, so it appears that the cylinders were honed and new bearings put in cause the beearings look very very new, local shot says they appear to have less than 5k on them.