can I do it myself????

[RECHRGD]

I've wanted to turn up the horsepower dial on the 440 for quite awhile but never had the time to do it before now.  I even talked to Chryco about doing it a few years back, but it doesn't seem economically feasable to haul the old boy down here from the great white north.  The question:  If I just was to change the heads / cam / valvetrain what tools would be involved and if I've never done this before should I even attempt it.  The car is now capable of mid 13's but, I would like to be able to get into mid/low 12's or better with street radials.  The engine is bored 30 over (I think) and has 30K miles on the build.
The current set-up is as follows:
1- 1971 block w/ forged crank and TRW forged flat tops.  (The block was decked, but I have no idea how much).  I'm guessing around 9.5 CR.
2- Holley 750 DP.
3- Performer RPM intake.
4- Mallory Unilite ignition.
5- 346 heads w/ 3 angle valve job.
6- Hooker Competition headers (ceramic coated).
7- Erson #100 Cam (have no specs, but is close to a stock magnum grind with more duration).
8- Windage tray.
9- High volume mechanical fuel pump.
10- Aluminum radiator with aux. electric pusher fan and High volume water pump.
11- 727 Torqueflight w/ trans-go kit.
12- Motor home converter (a few hundred rpm's over stock).
13- Gear Vendors O/D unit.
14- 8 3/4" rear with 3:55's & suregrip.
15- 28" tall street radials on rear.

I have a tranny guy that's going to freshen & beef-up the 727 a bit.  At that time, I will change out the converter to match whatever cam you guys may recommend.  Turbo action?  With a B&M flexplate?

I'm open to whatever heads will do the job but, I don't want to have to change the headers.  I've heard that the Eddy heads will have clearance problems with my Hookers because of the angled plug set-up.  I'd like to keep the 750 DP but, if I need to go 850 I will.  I assume the RPM intake will be a keeper.  So which cam (Engle?) & head combo should I be looking at?  I'm assuming I'll need around 500+ HP to reach my goal.  Thanks, Bob

[Rolling_Thunder]

swapping the "top end" of the engine is something you can do - if you have never done it before just take your time. If you are going to be running standard rocker arms I dont see any issues at all...   you will need a torque wrench, socket set, and ummm    a gasket scraper.

remember...    your engine is held together with bolts and nuts, just like a front or rear suspension or any other part of the car...       I highly suggest picking up "How to rebuild your big block mopar" - it will take you step by step   

[RECHRGD]

Thanks RT.  I'm concerned about the unknowns of the engine.  By not knowing the exact deck height and CR aren't I playing a guessing game by just throwing new heads on?  I don't want to end up with something that won't run on pump gas or have less compression that I now have.  Bob

[Runner]

bob, im running e heads and hooker headers. people say alot of stuff about header fitment with e heads with out ever acually trying them themselfs. ive been told hookers wont work and neither will headmans however ive ran both with out issue, headmans fit nice and the hookers needed 2 tubes slightly dinged,  nothing bad at all. i also had to be a little creative with my plug boots on a couple plugs,  they have to be 90 degree ends instead of the  typical 135s i usually run and they cant be a really fat boot with advertisments on them like msd uses. hookers are the better header.  if your worried about the plugs, it would be  be cheaper to just buy the mopar heads with the straight plugs then it would be to buy tti headers.


  i think you have enough power to run the numbers you want now, stick a 4200 stall, a set of slicks and some 430s in the rear       ive got a set of 4.57s in the shop right now  lol.

   be careful what you choose for a converter-cam,  you might end up making your car into something you dont want.   i thought at one point you didint like higher stall converters?
     

      depepnding on the cam you should check piston to valve clearance, with e heads its a pretty straight forward head swap and id also degree the cam in.   make sure the lifters rotate in the bores as well.  spkance has some very capable people, like brian shelly, however they also have some real hacks up there. be careful. 

   

[RECHRGD]

Thanks Mike.  Good to hear from you.  I've read good stuff about the Turbo Action converters.  They're supposed to act like a stock unit until until you nail the throttle.  That and what I',m hearing about the streetability of the Engle cams is what has me thinking about this.  Are your Hookers the Super Comps. or the Competitiion like mine?  Is Brian Shelly the guy that has the chassis dyno?  Did you have any porting done on your heads or did you run them out of the box?   Thanks, Bob

[firefighter3931]

Bob, the headswap is pretty straightforward as Mike said. he cam install is pretty easy too. As for your header question ; the 1 7/8in Comps will work with the angled plug e-heads but you will have to ding a few tubes for clearance....or go with the MP aluminum 452's which are basicly an E-head with the strsight spark plug location. Those heads are made by Edelbrock for Mopar Performance. 

The TA converters are very streetable....you just need to match it to the cam's powerband. 

Mid 12's should be no problemo with the right parts....go for it ! 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Thanks Ron!  What cam do you think I should go with and what stall TA converter would you recommend?  Thanks, Bob

[Runner]

brian is the guy with the dyno.  my headers are the hooker comps.   the drivers side is very nice for plug clearance,  its the passenger side that gets a little tricky.      as for the converter,  dont believe that crap that it will act like a stock converter until you hit the throttle  thats hogwash.  i have a 10 inch turbo action in my roadrunner , i have a 11 inch worked converter that stalls to about 2800 in my daughters car and a summit converter that footbraked to 3000  behind my green satellites 383 ( its now a 4 speed car)   the turbo action is the loosest of the bunch buy far.  its a good converter and i love it but it isnt like a stock convertrer at all.  if i take off on a hill i have to give it plenty of throttle to get it to move.  it MIGHT be like a stock converter if we lived in kansas and if we had light cars,  but in our heavy b bodys, and with all the hills and mountains we have to drive on your going to notice it, the more stall you have the more youll notice it.  you will also notice it when you click that gearvendors overdrive on with those 3.55 gears and dont see the rpm fall like they used to.       the term "steetable" is really a matter of what each person is willing to live with.  come on down to lewiston, as long as theres no snow on the road or its not raining ill  take you out in the roadrunner and you can decide if is something you would want to live with or not.

      i bolted the eheads on out of the box after my machinest pulled a couple valves and checked the spring preasure and looked them over. ive sence up graded the springs to isky 8005a double springs.      the heads will be a no brainer, either the mopar head or the e head will make a very nice improvment everywere in the powerband.   


  as for the cam,  i dont know much about the engle cams, i do know they are very popular on this websight.  another option would be getting something custom ground for you, mabe someone can come up with something that would work well with everything you want.   it only costs like an extra 30-40 dollars for a custom ( if that).  dwane porter is very good at specing custom cams,  scott brown is also very good about specing cams (straightline performance).  it would definatly be worth the phone call either way.  theres a guy that comes down from canada to race in spokane once in a while with a brown 69 superbee.      on his 383 he bolted on a set of e heads and went with a scott brown cam. it went from 13.30s to 12.7. heres a link to his websight,  theres also alot of good hooker comp ehead pics on his sight http://www3.telus.net/moparstuff/  i tried to find the specs on your cam but didint find anything. its been a while sence i heard your car, but doesnt it have a slight lope to it now?

  theres also a guy with a 68 coronet with a 440, its red with little flames coming out of the scoop area behind the door,  he went from mid 13s to a 12.6 with nothing but a swap to e heads. ( this is the guy i bought my 68 plymouth from).   

      you might be surprised at how fast your car is with just the headswap.   if i had your car i would do the head swap ( you wont be sorry)  then decide how much converter you want to live witt, then have a cam ground that works with the rest of your combo and if you arent happy then,  bolt slicks on, if that dont do it then bottle feed it

i think the biggest obstical youll face with your goal will be doing it on a radial tire (unless your talking about a drag radial or street slick)    more power+more stall=more traction problems.  you might find that your et picks up a little and your mph picks up bigtime.
   
 




       

     

[Rolling_Thunder]

You're in luck...    I just put Hooker super comps on Edelbrock heads today....    let me say the Driver's side was alright - the problem was cylinders #2, ad #8...     both of these are REAL cozy to the header tubes...    #2 spark plug CAN NOT be removed with the header installed....         

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron!  What cam do you think I should go with and what stall TA converter would you recommend?  Thanks, Bob

If i was doing this upgrade the cam would be an Engle k58 intake lobe/k60 exhaust lobe on a 108* lsa....installed on a 104* intake centerline. This will have to be custom ordered from Engle. The stock e-head/mopar springs will be fine with this cam profile....no need to upgrade. This cam with a set of e-heads will put you in the 480hp range....give or take a few. 

For the converter i would choose a TA "tight" 10in unit....make sure to specify you want the tight model. I'm not sure what type of converter Mike has in his but the last converter from TA we installed in a buddy's car felt like a stocker....until the pedal is mashed ! It's a 2800 stall Hemi converter from TA behind a 408ci smallblock stroker with e-heads making in the 450hp range. It drives verrrry nice. 


Ron

[Runner]

i can remove all my plugs,  i did buy one of these to make the job easier http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5-8-Custom-Short-Spark-Plug-Socket-Headers-Exhaust_W0QQitemZ200166199991QQihZ010QQcategoryZ43993QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD6VQQcmdZViewItem

ron, i have a 10 inch "medium" t/a

[RECHRGD]

Thanks Guys!  I love the low rpm highway driving that the Gear Vendors unit provides and don't want to compromise that.  I don't want to be heating up the tranny just going down the highway at 60 mph but, Ron's comment on the "tight" unit still has my hopes up.  Assuming the 10" tight TA converter, the Mopar aluminum heads and the cam profile that Ron suggested, would the 750 DP still be enough to properly feed the beast?  Should the heads be ported at all or are they good to go?  Bob

[Runner]

bob. im not going to debate it, i know how my cars are..   my offer to you is, come see for yoursself before you spend your hard earned money. we can take both cars out. mallorys car has a 2800 stall 11 inch converter that i bought from porter racing heads. my roadrunner has a 10" turbo action.  the differance between tthe "tight" "medium" and "loose" is about 200 rpm of stall speed per converter.    paul forte of turbo action is a honest guy and wont blow smoke like alot of other converter companys will. id call him and ask him what his converters act like.   the hemi converter will be tightrer than the 10 inch tight converter,  its an 11 inch converter. 

   http://www.turboaction.com/frame.html

[RECHRGD]

Thanks Mike.  I'll call Paul tomorrow as Florida is now closed for the day.  Ron--A new thought--I've heard that the Engle cams are great for keeping the Torque strong at lower rpm's as well as all through the power band.  If that is the case, why couldn't my current converter be used?  As stated before it's an RV unit with (I'm guessing) about a 1600 to 1800 stall.  As long as the cam will allow a for a somewhat normal idle my guess would be that I might be able to keep from roasting the 275/60/15 redlines easier.  Maybe the higher stalls advantage only really comes into play at the dragstrip with racing slicks.  I did want to go with a converter that utilized the 7/16 bolts rather than the 5/16 ones that my current one uses.  How much power can the 5/16 bolts and flexplate handle?  Sorry to be a pest, but, I want to do it right the first time.   Bob

[Runner]

bob, what  rpm do you cruise at with the gv unit in overdrive?.     paul will steer you in the right direction with your wants and needs.  he might sugest the 11 inch hemi converter.


   ill add a question of my own for ron or 340 challenger.    is a cnc ported head better than a hand ported head or is it just more uniform and cost effective.  i was wondering what gains bob might see with say 1000 dollars worth of porting from someone like porter racing heads dwayne, or is a mch cnc head a better choice.  lets assume for a minute that bob has a yellow 71 roadrunner with a 452 inch lowdeck with a comp xe282s solid lifter cam   

[RECHRGD]

Mike, with the o/d engaged at 60mph I'm turning right around 2000 rpm plus or minus.  At 70mph it's about 2300 or so.  At 200mph it's dead steady at 6600 rpm. 

[firefighter3931]

Bob, if you want to go a little more conservative on the cam profile then it's possible to tone the converter selection down a notch. I wouldn't run anything tighter than the hemi converter (11in) and then just size the cam profile accordingly. In Bob's case the LSA could be widened to broaden the powerband. I will tell you guys this : that 11in hemi converter is tight behind Rob's 408 and he's running the Comp HL275 hydraulic cam.

Mike ; i'm not convinced the CNC porting is superior to a good hand porting job. I suggested PRH for Doug's portwork last winter when the engine in the Belvedere was being freshened. There were some other changes but the car has picked up a solid 3 tenths and 5mph. Some of it was cam but the heads also had a big role in the reduction in ET's and MPH increases. Doug has been ecstatic with the car's performance and improvements over last season. Dropping 3 tenths and picking up 5mph when the car allready ran mid 10's is a huge improvement. Going from mid 10's to low 10's is a lot harder than mid 11's to low 11's. 

The reason i like Dwayne is because he does such nice work and he knows the E-heads so well having done so many sets. His knowledge produces a smaller yet very efficient port design. The CNC programs tend to "blow out" the ports and increase the volumes moreso than say a hand ported job. On a smallish 440ci displacement i would take a super efficient 300cfm port at 230cc over a 300cfm port at say 250cc. On a 500in motor the port volumes aren't as critical because those builds make soo much bottom end power that port volumes become less of an issue. That's my  fwiw.


Bob, when you decide on a converter we can have a look at the cam options. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

Thanks Ron!!!  I'll let you know what I find out tomorrow after talking to TA directly.    Bob

[RECHRGD]

I'll have to wait until monday to talk to TA.  They only work half a day on Fridays and do not take any tech calls.  Bob

[firefighter3931]

They only work half a day on Fridays. 

Must be nice ! 

Talk to Paul @ TA.....he's the man. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

OK, I got to talk with Paul @ TA.  He said that there is a world of difference between the tight 10" converter and the medium 10".  Accordingly, he stated that although it may not act exactly like a stock converter on the street, it is close, until you nail it.  His concern came in only with the gear vendors unit.  The converter begins to lock-up around 2700 to 3200 rpm.  If I leave the o/d off UNTIL I'm running down the highway, I should be fine.  That's the way I drive it anyway, as, if you leave the o/d unit on in auto mode it will shift into o/d around 42mph.  I double checked my highway speed rpms in o/d yesterday and came up with 2100 @ 60, 2300 @ 65, 2500 @ 70 and 2700 @ 75.  So, at 65mph I would be running around 86% efficiency and at 75mph it would be closer to 100%.  Most of the highway driving I do is between 70 & 80 anyway.  So what do you guys think?  Like Mike suggested, I could just change the heads without the cam upgrade and I wouldn't have to worry about any of this.  But, I know that sooner or later (and I'm running out of years) I would want to utilize the potential of the new heads.  Thanks, Bob

[RECHRGD]

To add to the above, I just went to the gear vendors site.  They state that the o/d can be used with high stall converters with no tranny heating problems at all.  They base that belief on the theory that the amount of horsepower applied to the converter is directly proportional to it's stall rpm.  For example: a 3500 stall converter designed for a 400hp application will stall at 4000 rpm at 500hp.  Using that logic, they say that if your only using say 125hp to cruise down the highway that the same converter will stall at 2000 rpm.  I don't know if I completely buy that, but they sell alot of units based upon that.   Bob

[firefighter3931]

Bob, i would do the converter/heads and cam upgrade.....you only live once. 

Not surprised to hear that there's a big difference between the medium and tight converters....they are designed for different applications. 

Heck i know folks that cruise around just fine with 5000 stall 8in converters on the street with no issues. That being said....you will be golden with a tight 10in and 3.55 gearing.  Just flip the OD switch when you hit the hwy and don't sweat it. 

As for the cam ; an Engle k56/k58 on a 110* LSA would be a very nice match for this converter/gear/head combo. That would be a custom order cam from Engle. The 268* Lunati Voo-Doo hydraulic would also fit the bill if you wanted to buy something off the shelf.


Ron

[RECHRGD]

Thanks Ron.  I'm going to start compiling a shopping list and will run it by you guys.  I'll be doing this amongst other cosmetic things to the car over the winter.  I'll have plenty of questions as I go along and will just use this same thread as they come up.  I'm pretty sure I'll be going with the Mopar Performance Stage VI Aluminum heads.  I'm assuming I'll be buying all new valves, lifters, springs, etc..  My question for now is; When going from iron to aluminum heads one should bump up the C/R a notch, correct?  I'm assuming I'll have to have the new heads milled or can different size head gaskets accomplish this?  If needed how do I determine how much to mill off and will any other machining for the valve train components be required?  Thanks, Bob

[Runner]

interesting on the converter,but if thats what paul says then i guess id follow his advise.....  i think you want the mopar aluminum 452 head NOT the stage 6 head.   you want the mopar e head with straight plugs right?     your compresion will get bumped up about half apoint  from the start going to a 84 cc head from a 88-90cc head.   theres 2 schools of thought on this. some say that you have to have more compresion to make up for thermal loss to keep the hp the ssame all things being equal.  the other school says you can get away with more because its aluminum, but you dont have to have more compresion.   i personally think the later is true.