400 for my 68?

[sixty8charger]

Found an excellent 400 professionally built long block the other day. I know that the engine was not available with the 68 but i don't plan on selling this car...The motor has been built and the builder (30+years experience) claims it is close to the 500Hp range. it will also be using the 915 closed heads with 2.08/1.75 valves. it has the 440 6pack camshaft, 440 6pack pistons (10.1:1) comes with high rise edelbrock intake, Holley 850 double pumper.
and i will be using my Doug Thorley headers on it (1 3/4) with a 2.5 in h-pipe  with 50series Flowmasters..
It will be attached to a 727t/f  to the 8 3/4 with 3.91 suregrip.

Any thoughts? 

[Ghoste]

Yes, stick a 383 pie pan on the air cleaner and go have fun. 

[sixty8charger]

   I like that response!   

[squeakfinder]

I don't see anything wrong with sticking a 400 in a 68. I've done it a couple of times. The only thing I question is the compression and weather it might be running a little higher with the closed chamber heads. I'd want something that I knew for sure I could run it on pump gas.

[sixty8charger]

it has the 440 six pack pistons installed..  10.1:1 ... ?  would the closed heads make a lot more compression or would using the 906 heads be better? The 915s do have the 2.08/1.66 valves in them.  will probably enlarge the exhaust to 1.75.

[squeakfinder]

Its to my understanding that from the factory the engines with the 915's ran 11 to 1 compression. A bit high for a carbureted engine on pump gas now days. If those 915's have been rebuilt, I would think you could resell them no problem. Then get a set of 452's which are much more common and have similar flow characteristics to the 906's but allready have the hardened exhaust seat's witch work with todays unleaded gas.

Larry

[sixty8charger]

would a 76 440 from a New Yorker have the 452s?

[RD]

would a 76 440 from a New Yorker have the 452s?

yes

[kylem4711]

what this car is tuscon?

[chargerbr549]

I see that the 400 is listed as having 440 6 pack pistons which I don't think is possible without running a very short connecting rod so the piston won't stick out of the hole, the compression height of the 400 piston is somewhere around 1.830 and the 440 6 pack piston is 2.060, I think the closest 440 piston that might work is the low compression one that is around 1.930 compression height about .100 taller than the factory 400 one. If you were running the stock height 400 piston, stock deck height and the closed chamber 915 head you would probably be in the 9 to 9.5 to 1  compression ratio depending on the head gasket being used, also on the 67 440's with 915 closed chamber heads the compression ratio is about the same as the 68-69 440s with 906 open chamber head which is factory rated around 10 to 1, because the 66-67 440 pistons have a compression height around 2.00 and the 68-69 440 pistons have a compression height at 2.030. I hope this helps,

Kevin

[sixty8charger]

Kylem, no this car is not in Tuscon i have never brought it to AZ.  Chargerbr thanks for the specifications. I asked the builder for specifics on how he accomplished this. once i learn that i will share.

[Hemidog]

400 in a 68?  Never heard of that... 

[sixty8charger]

Chargerbr, talked to the builder again..  should not of questioned his MOPAR wizdom! He's been building MOPAR Muscle since 1957!! (Been there and done that!)
anyways this is what he had to say... the engine used to be a 400 Interceptor (Police engine) with 400hp stock...The deck height of the 440 piston is about .100 higher than the 400, so the piston is even with the deck height of the block. 400 pistons are dished and .100 lower in the cylinder. The piston wrist pin of the 400 is  in the same location as the 440, so the rods that came with the engine will work with the 440 pistons. The rods are from the 440 6pack, the pistons in it are 440 Magnum flat tops.  He chose to use the Closed chamber heads to raise  the compression from 9.6:1 to 10.1:1, not too big of a diferents except the 40 more horses it will build.   Everyhthing he did to it was for the purpose of building horsepower!  Sounds like an incredible build!
oh yes this will be going into my 68!

[deputycrawford]

I wasn't going to log in and post but I am just dying to know. The 400 had a MUCH bigger bore than a 440. How did he fit the 440 piston in that hole. Did he use a .060 or .080 over bore to get it in a close to stock bore 400? By that time wouldn't he use a 440 crank and make a 450 out of it? Lost of suspicious information here. I guess it would be possible to use the stuff with a large over bore piston but a custom piston would have taken many ounces of rotational weight away from the engine to keep the short deck rev response. It sounds like a very low dollar rebuild that won't even come close to the advertised 500 horsepower. If the entire build is a 440 six pack in a 400 block, you only have a 400 six pack. The 440 six pack only had 390 horsepower. Thats a far cry from 500.  I hope Firefighter, and others, chimes in here. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[bordin34]

the engine used to be a 400 Interceptor (Police engine) with 400hp stock...

Are you sure. I think he is confused. The HP stands for High Performance or something like that not Horsepower. It will have more Horsepower than a non-HP 400, but not close to 400 horsepower.

[chargerbr549]

The stock bore size on a 400 is 4.340 and the stock bore size on the 440 is 4.320 which is only .020 smaller  so for an example if you ordered a .040 over piston for the 440 is would be .020 in a 400 block it used to be an old school trick to put a low compression 440 piston in a 400 block to get your compression up, now in todays world there are a lot more options in aftermarket pistons to get your desired compression ratio up and plus have some valve reliefs for a hi-lift cam.

The highest horsepower for a 400 was in the mid to hi 200 horsepower range if I remember correctly and also remember that around 71 they started rating the horsepower in net horsepower instead of gross horsepower so the same engine would have different  ratings depending on the way they rated it, and the first year for the 400 was 72 and all those were under the net rating.

Kevin

[bull]

I'm kind of a purist when it comes to putting certain engines in cars that were never optioned for them. I'd go with a 383 or 440.

[deputycrawford]

Chargerbr, thanks for the info. I do remember reading he was using the six pack cam etc. I just believe he will be disappointed in the hp of the engine. Even with head porting, I think it will only have around 420 at the most. That,s still enough to get you around, but not the advertised power. He will do fine if it,s a pump gas engine. I just hope he doesn't pay too much for it because mostly stock parts were used. Well, I won't bother with any more of my two cents but thanks again for the info.

[sixty8charger]

I appreciate all the posts!
Maybe the builder has a few secrets involved on this build...  he's been building the late 50s and has even raced with Dick Landy!
hmm..  story goes that the engine came from a Police Car in the 70s that was involved in a high Speed chase of Randy Greenawalt and Gary Tison. The car was involved in a wreck and the builder purchased it for the engine. put it togther with top parts from the Max Wedge, 440 6Pack, and what not.
I Trust his knowledge on mopars!   but with all these questions rising..  hmmm...         
I do have a 440.. its from a 76 New Yorker.. reaL mushy though!  I would love to build it but for the price of this built engine i would be saving money. The price is 35 for the motor with a completly built 727 with manual gear valve...  i figure it would cost me close to 5 just to get the 440 to HighPerformance standards.

[Rolling_Thunder]

sure...    I'm putting a 400 block in a customer's 68 satellite...     a 383 came out of it and the 400 is going in...     but he is cheating...     452ci     

[RD]

sure is a heavy slug in that 400.  how much is he offering for it?  i dont want it, but I am curious as to what this grand poobah of the moparian world plans on charging you for the engine/trans.

[HemiDave]

You could use the new, afffordable 440Source aluminum heads that are coming out early next year. Look just like the cast iron ones...a little paint..'Yeah, it's a stock 383.'

Dave

[metallicareload99]

"claims it is close to the 500Hp range."

That seems to be a lot of horsepower for any stock displacement B engine from any era.  I wonder how "streetable" this engine is?

"The rods are from the 440 6pack, the pistons in it are 440 Magnum flat tops"

I don't really see why 440 6-Pack rods would be used in a B engine?  Rod ratio is about 2.0, 6.77"/3.38".  Maybe for a very specific racing application?  If using RB~6.77" rods in a B engine assuming a 9.98" deck height with the 3.38" stroke, compression height for zero deck is 1.52".  As previously mentioned, the late 60's 440 Magnum pistons have a compression height of around 2", using RB 6.77" rods would cause the piston to protrude a significant distance above the deck.  "6pack" pistons if I recall also have a compression height of around 2".

"raise  the compression from 9.6:1 to 10.1:1, not too big of a difference except the 40 more horses it will build."

To me, a half point increase in compression doesn't seem significant enough to bring about 40 more horses.  Maybe I'm wrong.

"put it together with top parts from the Max Wedge, 440 6Pack, and what not."

I think the only top parts from a Max Wedge that would be worth using is the heads, but as mentioned earlier the 400 has later B/RB heads with the standard intake ports.

"The price is 35 for the motor with a completely built 727 with manual gear valve...  i figure it would cost me close to 5 just to get the 440 to HighPerformance standards."

$3,500 correct?  In my opinion that money would be better spent building up the 440 you have now, assuming the block checks out as a good candidate for a build.  I re-ringed and added new bearings and new heads to a 69 440 I bought a year ago and it wasn't too expensive.  I'm happy with the results.

$3,500 will take you a long way into a 440 build, and if you went with a stroker then you would have at least as much power as this 400 is supposedly making, in addition to better drivability.

These are all questions I'd want resolved before handing over money if I were in your position.  I've been there, looking for an engine ready to go to drop in and rock n roll, only to find out I basically bought a core.  A cast crank, open chambered, low compression, externally balanced, beat up core.  I trusted the guy when he said it a was running engine, and got took.  I think I did myself a huge favor by tearing it down to a short block before trying to drop it in and run it.  I found a wiped cam lobe, clogged and rusted out exhaust ports, and when I went further found that at least one of the pistons had a nasty scuff on it and almost every bearing surface was badly scratched.

The next 440 I bought, I rented a truck and drove 150 miles one way just to hear and see how it ran.

My 68 Charger has that same 440 short block and it runs good, with a 4-Speed.

I know your situation is different, but my point is to be very thorough and know as much as you can about what you are buying.  $3,500 is a lot of money, to me at least.  I might be too nit-picky and am over analyzing it.  Hopefully other members will be along to resolve some of these questions and offer better advice.  Good luck no matter which way you go   

[ACUDANUT]

  No one will ever know that it's a 400.  For those purist out there, tell them it's a 383.  It sounds like this 400 is going to be a screamer.

[sixty8charger]

thanks for all the input Reload.
3.5k is a good chunk of change for me as well. The 440 runs but there is a horrible knocking sound when the rpms are raised above idle.. it came from a 76New Yorker and i don't know how far it is gone. I wanted to do a stroker build on it... but ... this car will be taken on the freeways many times.. many!  at least the 400 would be able to handle the constant higher RPMS.  I do not have the overdrive unit (yet... later down the road... much  later..)    I trust this guy!
I will be headed up to get down and dirty with he engine soon.. fully inspect the 915 heads and clean em up.. new springs and what not..  inspect the engine a little more.. i am a novice at this so i hope he doesn't take advantage of that...  so far so good though! He's been very enthusiastic at answering all my questions and providing advice from what he has learned throughout the many many years of Mopar lifestyle.
I hope that i am not getting my hopes up too high!  Sounds Too Good !  i don't want to miss this oportunity if it is truly a great deal!

....  i would like to build the 440 too...  the only thing is that it will need everything !  mushy engine to begin with... and i was thinking it would cost me well over the 3.5k price.....           

[RD]

you can figure $1000-$1500 for machine work

$300 for pistons
$80 for rings
$100 for rods/main bearings
$899 for new 440 source aluminum heads
$200 for a good intake
$350 for a good carburetor (if you dont have one already)
$150 for a damper/balancer

and you already have the 440 block... do the math.

no replacement for displacement

[firefighter3931]

Chargerbr, talked to the builder again..  should not of questioned his MOPAR wizdom! He's been building MOPAR Muscle since 1957!! (Been there and done that!)
anyways this is what he had to say... the engine used to be a 400 Interceptor (Police engine) with 400hp stock...The deck height of the 440 piston is about .100 higher than the 400, so the piston is even with the deck height of the block. 400 pistons are dished and .100 lower in the cylinder. The piston wrist pin of the 400 is  in the same location as the 440, so the rods that came with the engine will work with the 440 pistons. The rods are from the 440 6pack, the pistons in it are 440 Magnum flat tops.  He chose to use the Closed chamber heads to raise  the compression from 9.6:1 to 10.1:1, not too big of a diferents except the 40 more horses it will build.   Everyhthing he did to it was for the purpose of building horsepower!  Sounds like an incredible build!
oh yes this will be going into my 68!

Fwiw, a 440 rod (6.76) and stock spec 440 piston will not fit in a 400 block....no way, no how. Like has been mentioned above by Kevin ; a low compression 440 piston on a stock length 383-400 (6.35) rod will work in a 400 block and is a cheap way to bump up the static compression without having to go the custom piston route. 

Perhaps you misunderstood what the "guru" was trying to tell you ?

If you're going to build a 400 you might as well stroke it....inmo. 



Ron

[sixty8charger]

Ron, i was hoping that you would post on this!  thank you.

and with the rough price estimates posted by RD i think it would be more benificial to me to build my 440... might as well do the stroker kit then..  becides then i wouldn't have another block taking up space...
512 kit? 500 kit?        i want an engine that will be well balanced and reliable because this car will be driven occasionally on the freeway from time to time and with the 3.91s in the rear i don't want to be screaming and beating up my engine!!!!!  i have to save save save in order to do anything on this...                    maybe i got too excited too quickly on this 400...            that is of course why i posted this on DC.COM!
thanks for the help.  can anyone post some important tips/recommendation for me to go about building my 440?

Jayson

[firefighter3931]

Jayson, how much power are you looking to make ? You don't necessarily have to build a stroker to make 500 reliable horsepower on the street....a 440 can do that with some descent parts and planning. Of course the stroker will do it much easier and will ultimately make more torque and horsepower....but there is the added cost to consider.

The rest of the drivetrain has to be upgraded with a stroker as well.....trans/driveshaft/suspension and rear end. If you're planning on racing it much then a Dana 60 rear end should be part of the overall plan. 


Something alond the lines of Vegas Mike's build is very streetable and wouldn't require major chassis/drivetrain upgrades to make it live. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.msg356593.html#msg356593



Ron

[sixty8charger]

Ron,
I would love to be around that 500 mark.  VegasMikes build seems like it would be great..  I PM'd him to see if he would share some Cost info on the build and also its handling on the freeway....

I just want a very strong, reliable engine that will take me down the strip in mid to low 12s (on the occasion...) have a very MuScLe CaR idle/rumble, and be something that i do not have to adjust all the time..and run on PUMP GAS! with no problems of valve sink or any crazy things like that.

I will take this car on the freeway to car shows so i want an engine that will handle the constant high rpms (no gear venders in my budget) and be well... FUN!  No Disappointments...

Jayson

[RD]

here is a pic of my build, take in consideration, desktop is somewhat generous, not much maybe 5-8% i believe.

most of the build is there, except the heads are 516's, pistons are 2395 TRW's (think thats the number), and the cam is a 509 purple cam.  imagine what will happen when I step up to the 557 solid and put the new 440source aluminum heads on the ol girl next year

[RD]

with graph

[HemiDave]

So let me get this straight...according to your chart, at 11,000 rpm, you are only making 106 HP?

I'm not too sure about this engine builder...if you are on a really low 440 budget, you might get by with a crank grind (assuming that a rod knock is what the knock is from), a bearing set, a gasket set and a rering. If you want new stuff, the 440source stroker kits are just a little more than a stock rebuild kit with the same parts. And if you are waiting a little while, the aluminum heads we've been talking about will be available.

Just don't want you doing this: :brickwall:after getting the rebuilder to do your engine....good luck!

Dave

[RD]

So let me get this straight...according to your chart, at 11,000 rpm, you are only making 106 HP? ... Dave

yeah I know, whats up with that nonsense?  its because my chrome ecu only goes to 8K hehehehehe

[sixty8charger]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

[terrible one]

RD, where did you get that program and what is it? Free?

[RD]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

those results are for a 440, not a 400, just to make sure you know.

[RD]

RD, where did you get that program and what is it? Free?

i bought it a long time ago,  i can post up the files on a server somewhere so that you can download them if you like?

[firefighter3931]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

Don't place a lot of faith in a computer game. 

Desktop dyno is notorious for being waaaaay overgenerous. My own engine combo showed 100+ additional horsepower on DD over the real thing (engine dyno). 




Ron


Ron

[supserdave]

3500 for that 400 is to much i.m.o. And, if the heads are stock, and he's using a 440 6 pack cam, theres no way it's 500 hp. Probably less than 400.

That same build in a 440 would probably only be good for around 410-420 or so I bet, and thats with 40 extra cubes.

No offense, but with or without 50 years of mopar experience, he's still blowing smoke up your ***. For 3500 you could have a hell of a start on a stroker.

[terrible one]

RD, where did you get that program and what is it? Free?

i bought it a long time ago,  i can post up the files on a server somewhere so that you can download them if you like?

That would be great, as long as it's not too much trouble for you! 

[RD]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

Don't place a lot of faith in a computer game. 

Desktop dyno is notorious for being waaaaay overgenerous. My own engine combo showed 100+ additional horsepower on DD over the real thing (engine dyno). 




Ron


Ron

Ron makes a good point, the desktop dyno is just a tool for estimated horsepower, one cannot factor in the many variables to produce an extremely accurate and "prophet" telling idea of horsepower.

But the numbers shown are very similar to builds in which i have seen in the past that are somewhat identical to my build, minus the whole 6-10% more HP than reality states.

My build should be in the range of 500-525hp... the dyno shows 544hp, so thats close enough in my book.

[Runner]

alright, now that is impressive!

Looks like i am going to need to think this one out a little more..    i got to put that 400 on a dyno.. i will share the results..  hopefully within the next couple of months..  kind of a drive away!   

Don't place a lot of faith in a computer game. 

Desktop dyno is notorious for being waaaaay overgenerous. My own engine combo showed 100+ additional horsepower on DD over the real thing (engine dyno). 




Ron


Ron

Ron makes a good point, the desktop dyno is just a tool for estimated horsepower, one cannot factor in the many variables to produce an extremely accurate and "prophet" telling idea of horsepower.

But the numbers shown are very similar to builds in which i have seen in the past that are somewhat identical to my build, minus the whole 6-10% more HP than reality states.

My build should be in the range of 500-525hp... the dyno shows 544hp, so thats close enough in my book.

       i played around with desk top dyno when i biult my engine, for me it was more of a toy and i would NEVER buy a part based on info i got from it.  i dont trust it at all.

[Steve P.]

$3500.00 for a spare parts motor,,,,  HOW ABOUT A NICE BRIDGE WITH VERY LITTLE USE........


Make life nice AND easy. pull your 440 and have the block checked. Buy a stroker kit and aluminum heads from 440 Source. Add to it a nice cam. Have the engine shop put it together and drop it into you 68'. You will love it and it will make plenty of power.   

[RD]

i dont want to hijack this thread too much, but the parts on my vehicle are race proven, street proven, and dyno proven to produce the said amount of horsepower that is slightly exaggerated by the desktop dyno.

I am not telling the originator of this thread to buy what is in my build, or even build his 440 just like mine, but rather showing him some irrefutable evidence that a 440 with the same amount of money put into it as the 400 he was thinking of purchasing would yield more horsepower and torque with the help of a desktop dyno tool for a guess in hp/tq.

i am not asking him to buy a part due to what was shown on the dyno, nor is it a representation of what the 400 he thought about purchasing would produce in regards to hp/tq.

SO HERE IS SOMETHING, LETS GET OFF THE DESKTOP DYNO BAND WAGON AND INSTEAD JUST LOOK AT THE REAL ISSUE AT HAND, SHOULD HE BUY A 400 THAT IS MISLEADING OR PUT HIS MONEY INTO A 440 THAT HE ALREADY OWNS.

good god... this is getting stupid.

[Steve P.]

Wait just one damn minute there RD..  I think you can take your desk top dingo and put it right up,,   




     

[firefighter3931]

Jamey, nobody is critisizing you....hope you didn't take it that way. 

Yes your car runs great and the motor makes excellent power for what it is. 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming. 



Ron


Ps. Ignore Steve P....he's just a troublemaker  If he keeps it up we'll throw him in the "cooler" for a little quiet time alone 

[Steve P.]

Ps. Ignore Steve P....he's just a troublemaker  If he keeps it up we'll throw him in the "cooler" for a little quiet time alone 

Hahahahaha....   Here's one for you too buddy..     

I think RD knows I was busting his chops... If not,            

[sixty8charger]

$3500.00 for a spare parts motor,,,,  HOW ABOUT A NICE BRIDGE WITH VERY LITTLE USE........


Make life nice AND easy. pull your 440 and have the block checked. Buy a stroker kit and aluminum heads from 440 Source. Add to it a nice cam. Have the engine shop put it together and drop it into you 68'. You will love it and it will make plenty of power.   

Sounds simple enough..  would 3500 cover that?  i already have Edel Perf. RPM Intake, and the Doug headers..  and the MSD shizneet..       
.. Sad to see how little faith everyone seems to have in this 400.. sounded just too good! The builder seems so positive in the build, and has shared so much of his history.  Raced for Champion Speed Shop back in the day and he would race in Fremont...against Dick Landy of all people!  Maybe his knowledge is just of the old times and not so much as to what technology has brought us today... i don't know if he is pulling my leg or what..  but he seems to know so much.  I will admit that i am young and a little easy to impress if you persuade me in beleiving you...         i am glad i posted though..    one more thing though.
if the block is good (the 440)  will it last me a long while?  is the block built as well as.. say the 67-70 HP blocks? will the 76 one be softer? and not be able to handle a lot of .. well abuse?


thanks for all the advice,

Jayson

[Steve P.]

A well built and maintained 440 will last forever...  Ok, maybe not as long as that, but you get the idea..  It has been around this long, right??   

[sixty8charger]

the motor has been around a while.. but hasn't had much power running through it....    there was about 76K miles on the New Yorker when the motor was pulled.. and i think there might be somewhere around 2k miles put on it since it has been in the charger...

[Runner]

rd, wasnt trying to pick on you. sorry you took it that way.     as far as programs go, ive had pretty good luck with a crud free program called dragstrip plus.

[RD]

no i apologize guys, my diabetes has been acting up and when I posted i was just in an extremely somber mood.. I hope you accept my apology,

and for Mr. Steve P.  ..... well.... YOU ALWAYS CRACK ME UP!

thanks for the reality check fellerz, its nice to have understanding friends like you all.

Jamey

[supserdave]

Go to 440source.com and read the entire site. Lots of good stuff there.

I woldn't be afraid of a 76 block.

[squeakfinder]

I have a 75 440 in my 68. It's bored .060 over and I put about 700 miles on it this past summer with no problems.

Yes, go to 440source.com and start reading.


Larry