Ammeter Question

[justin1987]

Somebody told me a few months back that I should disconnect my ammeter and just tie the two wires together behind the dash because that is where most dash fires start. Have any of you all done this?

[Nacho-RT74]

It has been LOTS OF THREADS about that... is partially true if you don't have a balanced charging system, with everything tight and clean. But there are ways to save from that:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.html

and one what I don't like, other members does but finally is user choose:
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

they state main splicer is now on starter relay , but is not true.

Somebody told me a few months back that I should disconnect my ammeter and just tie the two wires together behind the dash because that is where most dash fires start. Have any of you all done this?

fire and melting are because loose terminals and heavy overcharging. The problem is not the ammeter itself, the problem is get long times discharge to get then heavy long charging periods of time. Mopars are famous for not charge at iddle. You save from that and won't get heavy loads getting back to batt from alt...rest will be fine

[justin1987]

Thanks! I searched for it on here but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. 

[2Gunz]

The simple answer is yes you can just put both the wires on the same post.

Or bolt them together. And the problem goes away. But so does the Amp gauge.


I personally think the AMP gauge and the whole idea behind the AMP gauge is crap and should go away.

There is a reason cars dont have them anymore.... and its not because it was a great idea.......

[Nacho-RT74]

There is a reason cars dont have them anymore.... and its not because it was a great idea.......

just because everything is electric in the new cars now, so too much consumption

[Moparsky67]

The problem with the amp gauge is that the entire alternator output runs thru the firewall via the bulkhead connectors to the AMP gauge. If one upgrades to a nigher output alternator then even more amps go thru the already under sized wires & connectors. It was a poor design even in the 60's & 70's to keep using 1920's technology. One poster on another thread advised to not place both AMP meter wires on the same post, that might cause a slight electrical drain, running down your battery slowly.

Is there a tech thread that shows the proper hookup of a Voltmeter once the AMP meter & it's
associated wiring has been rerouted ?

I think the Allpar site had a thread about the AMP meter bypass as well;

http://allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical.html

There is probably better & lots more info out there, I'm sure olthers will post help as well.

[Nacho-RT74]

If one upgrades to a nigher output alternator then even more amps go thru the already under sized wires & connectors.

FALSE.

just when you got diascharged batt and you are trying to charge the batt with engine running instead using a home charger.  For a while you keep same consumption on car you will get in fact less power throught ammeter with powerfull alt, because consumption is JUST BETWEEN ammeter and alt, so power never goes throught ammeter. Alt will be the main source

JUST when alt is not able to feed or engine is turned off, ( or at cranking moment of course, but just feding the relay signal, not the directly the starter motor  ) then power goes throught ammeter because comes FROM BATT and then meets the main splice BEFORE the amm

[John_Kunkel]

Whenever the ammeter needle is towards the (+) side there is more current flowing through the ammeter than is being consumed by the car.

Like it or not there are occasions in the field when a dead battery has to be jumped and then there is a chance that the added current capacity of an oversized alternator will flow through the ammeter and overload the standard wiring and aged connections. The same can be said of added accessories.

[Moparsky67]

Nacho, thanks for trying to educate me -- I sure need it. I have read that is several places (Not trying to argue with you at all ).  So I can add a higher amperage output alternator & not have to upgrade my 1967 B-body's wiring pathway to the Ampmeter or thru the bulkhead connectors w/o fear of meltdowns or fires ?  Or is it (if I glean correctly what you were trying to tell me) the risk only comes when the battery is near totally drained & / or;  we are jump starting the car from another car (battery still in the non starting Mopar) ? 

Thanks for all your help !

[y3chargerrt]

I would highly recomend you do the upgrade. What if your regulator fails and the alternator starts overcharging??Could be fire time!

[Lifsgrt]

Gents, one more thing to consider...the ammeter was originally built with a piece of cardboard-like material that stabilized the gauge in the housing.  38 years isn't kind to this material, so the first time you hit the stutter-bumps on the side of an interstate highway, the gauge vibrates in the housing and you learn the value of the fusible link in your wiring harness, (hopefully) installed at the firewall bulkhead disconnect, as when the posts ground out on the instrument panel housing, it either burns the fusible link (as designed) or causes a fire in your wiring harness .  At a minimum, I recommend replacing the fiberboard material on the back of the ammeter.

[hemi68charger]

I did with my amp-to-volt conversion........

[Nacho-RT74]

DAMN AFTER ALL THE REDACTION GOT AN INTERNET FAIL AND LOOSE EVERYTHING... will writte up again:

Whenever the ammeter needle is towards the (+) side there is more current flowing through the ammeter than is being consumed by the car.

Like it or not there are occasions in the field when a dead battery has to be jumped and then there is a chance that the added current capacity of an oversized alternator will flow through the ammeter and overload the standard wiring and aged connections. The same can be said of added accessories.

Ammeter reading means where is coming the power with batt relationship because is preciselly what is being charged or discharged. Consumption is on the opposite side.

Discharge reading means alt is not being able to feed the car and then completelly or partially, the power is coming from batt. Is getting discharged.

Charge reading means alt is feeding the car and still is able to get back batt charged with extra power produced. So batt is the device what is sucking the power like an extra electrical device.

Center reading means Alt is feeding completelly the car and batt is completelly charged. On that moment there is not power flowing thought amm ( or at least unapreciable ). On a running car there is still consumption of course, but BEFORE the amm ( black side ), and no throught the amm.

As I have beeing posting, problems are in order howver everyone related allmost at the same time to melt down:
-Iddle feeding problem
-Low power alt
-Wiring weak points

Nacho, thanks for trying to educate me -- I sure need it. I have read that is several places (Not trying to argue with you at all ). So I can add a higher amperage output alternator & not have to upgrade my 1967 B-body's wiring pathway to the Ampmeter or thru the bulkhead connectors w/o fear of meltdowns or fires ? Or is it (if I glean correctly what you were trying to tell me) the risk only comes when the battery is near totally drained & / or; we are jump starting the car from another car (battery still in the non starting Mopar) ?

Thanks for all your help !

If you have a low consumption car ( like no A/C but msoltly because blower than compressor itself, so heater is a problem too ) and perfect terminals at bulkead, then wiring upgrade is not a need for a while you have an alt able to feed at iddle. In fact with a POWERFULL alt will have the same because even you having BIG ALT. Alt never gives if car doesn't need.

BUT you'll never now when terminals become on a problem so I woudl say IS MANDATORY the wiring upgrade, specially on black side where is the side with more stuff working. with a perfect balanced charging system ( center read ).

Gents, one more thing to consider...the ammeter was originally built with a piece of cardboard-like material that stabilized the gauge in the housing. 38 years isn't kind to this material, so the first time you hit the stutter-bumps on the side of an interstate highway, the gauge vibrates in the housing and you learn the value of the fusible link in your wiring harness, (hopefully) installed at the firewall bulkhead disconnect, as when the posts ground out on the instrument panel housing, it either burns the fusible link (as designed) or causes a fire in your wiring harness . At a minimum, I recommend replacing the fiberboard material on the back of the ammeter.

Good advice !!!

[myk]

Ok, I just opened up my dash and saw that the wires leading to the ammeter have been bolted and taped together, obviously to keep the car running. 
I'm still concerned about 100% of the alternator current flowing through my dash harness as it goes back out to the battery. 
Am I correct in thinking that if I hook up a heavy gauge wire (with fusible link) from the output stud of the 'alt to the positive stud on the starter relay then I will have reduced or eliminated the chance of an in-dash electrical fire?  Also, with this new wire would I then be able to leave the ammeter wires disconnected, or would that kill the car? 

[runningman]

I did with my amp-to-volt conversion........

Did you do this yourself?  I was thinking of doing the same with mine.  Thanks  Matt

[Nacho-RT74]

Am I correct in thinking that if I hook up a heavy gauge wire (with fusible link) from the output stud of the 'alt to the positive stud on the starter relay then I will have reduced or eliminated the chance of an in-dash electrical fire?

yes but no. You are saving of that if you have a completelly discharged batt, then the power to get back the power to batt will run directly to batt instead throught ammeter. ( ohms law, using the direct way to run the power without any resistance )
HOWEVER, power will still runn ALLWAYS throught original fuse link throught bulkhead, because IS NOT POSIBLE to eliminate a fact... the main splice is and will be ALLWAYS inside the cab, between ammeter stud and bulkhead, so the demand for power on car IS ALLWAYS there. Plus you'll never will know with PRECISSION if you are having a charge or discharge process.

Also, with this new wire would I then be able to leave the ammeter wires disconnected, or would that kill the car? 

Won't really kill the car since now the power to feed the ing switch runs from batt to starter relay, then throught the new wire up to alt stud, then to the original alt wire up to black wire inside the cab ( the one to amm ) from where is spliced the ign switch source.
If you make than and keep unplugged the ammeter and not even tie the amm wire terminals, then simply remove the original red wire between starter stud and ammeter, because will be out of use.

[myk]

If you make than and keep unplugged the ammeter and not even tie the amm wire terminals, then simply remove the original red wire between starter stud and ammeter, because will be out of use.

So....I CAN leave the ammeter wires unconnected, and just run with the wire from the 'alt to the starter relay stud?

[71_deputy]

I agree with Natcho with above comments.

I'm just gonna add mine. bigger alt- bigger wires feeding to the battery.

If you are leaving the existing wiring alone- check the bulkhead wires- the connectors are only rated for about 30-35 amps. this was ok way back in the sixties and seventies but the years, corrosion, vibration and extra power use causes the problems- via melt down.

Alt. meter is ok on the dash- but again as above must be tight connections- the other problem is that the alt. studs are very close to the metal dash and this can cause a fire if it touches the dash.

if you are up grading the wiring from the alt thur the bulkhead to the amp meter, thur the bulkhead to the starter stud- do this..... don't use the factory connections at the bulkhead- carry the wire thur the firewall-either find a unused hole or make one and use a good rubber grommet- route in and out of it to feed the amp meter. now leave the existing two wires on the amp meter to feed the car- but at the engine side of the bulkhead- don't connect anything there.

Done this to the deputy- haven't any problems with the electrics even with a bigger alt.

John Mac

[Nacho-RT74]

If you make than and keep unplugged the ammeter and not even tie the amm wire terminals, then simply remove the original red wire between starter stud and ammeter, because will be out of use.

So....I CAN leave the ammeter wires unconnected, and just run with the wire from the 'alt to the starter relay stud?

as stated, yes as far you ISOLATE the eyelet ends to ammeter... but if you make that, then is better simply tie them up and isolate anyway. more wire running will be better.

HOWEVER all the power car demand will be still running throught original bulkheads terminals. Pay attention on what I posted. You are simply saving from heavy load when batt is discharged and alt is charging back the batt, but car demand is still running throught original wires and terminals beacuse all the power splices are inside the cab. There is no way to change that with light mods. Would need heavy wiring/splicing mods to change that. I can design a system to that, using also relays to remove all the main power splices.

It is posible to feed fuse box from exterior of car, using also relays to feed the fuse box buss bars and any splice around. If you want to make that I can make any power distribution design for you or any body on board.

Buddy, really to simply Run a wire, make a complete job. Only extra job is drill a hole on firewall and add a grommet to pass the wires. You can use any existing grommet what 2nd gens have a lot, just enlarging the grommet hole to make that.

[myk]

Ok, I think I got it.  Now, I'm going to start this off by installing the wire from the 'alt output to the starter relay stud.  What gauge wire should I use?  I do plan on installing a more powerful 'alt later, such as a 90 amp or higher.  Also, no one around here seems to sell fusible links.  Do I need to install a fusible link, and why?  If so, what size should that be? 

[2Gunz]

I used two 10 Gauge wires from the Alt to the starter stud.

I have zero issues and the wire is as cool as a cucumber.



As far as the fuse you could use something like this........

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=263-630

And get a 60-80ish amp fuse for it.

Depending on who you believe 10 Gauge wire at 12 volts and around 8' long is good for 20-30 amps per wire.

The fuse should go as close as possible to the battery.

[Nacho-RT74]

original wire is usually 12 gauge.

The one I run from alt to ammeter is 8, but just because I had a COMPLETE LINE from end to end, from a 76 Coronet what already had the parallel wiring from factory.

Then run a 10 gauge wire beteeen ammeter to starter stud... why ? because with powerfull alts, only two moents you have load on wires between amm and batt is with a discharged batt and with engine off. Otherwise is the alt side what feeds the car if alt is able an never gets juice from batt. Thats the reason why I didn't unhooked the ammeter. Power never goes throught amm in all word extension. True is allways powered but that doesn't mean is feeding. with a powered Alt source, all power flows between amm and alt, but never THROUGHT amm.

also true I could oversize wire, really 10 is simply enough, or even duplicate original 12 on batt side and use 10 on alt side of the net.

fuse link are available at resorer dealers ( Yr1 and paddock for example )

for 12 gauge, 16 gauge fuse is enough... for 10, then 14 or even keep 16 for REAL safety, since a short will take MORE TIME to blow both fuse link at a time, so more time to get a heavy damage around, before fuse blows.

[myk]

The fuse should go as close as possible to the battery.

Do you mean closer to the stud, since the wire is coming from the 'alt to the starter stud itself?

[Nacho-RT74]

The fuse should go as close as possible to the battery.

Do you mean closer to the stud, since the wire is coming from the 'alt to the starter stud itself?

untill 72, yes because starter relay sits at a side of batt. Since 73 starter relay sits above booster, so gives time to heat the wire between batt and starter relay.

however even being truth, is just a couple of seconds what takes to heat. Fuse link still will work.

[myk]

Ok, so I installed a 10 gauge wire with a fuse from the output stud on the 'alt, right on to the stud on the starter relay.  Isn't charging performance supposed to improve a little?  My voltmeter is reading 12v at the battery and on the new 10 gauge wire itself even while the car is running.  My regulator's shot, isn't it?  My voltmeter reads 13-14v at the 'alt itself...

[Nacho-RT74]

Didn't know why but I "jumped" this John's comment

Whenever the ammeter needle is towards the (+) side there is more current flowing through the ammeter than is being consumed by the car.

Like it or not there are occasions in the field when a dead battery has to be jumped and then there is a chance that the added current capacity of an oversized alternator will flow through the ammeter and overload the standard wiring and aged connections. The same can be said of added accessories.

yes, but that happens on both ways... power goes throught ammeter on C ( + ) or D (- ), so in both ways is potentially "dangerous"

the right way to feed back a dead battery is on a home charger outside the car. If you are not able then, charge with a direct wire from alt stud to batt and will keep safe the rest of installation.

If you have a powerfull alt, charge at iddle will be fine, even raise RPMs will get a quicker charge. If you have stock alt will be mandatory to increase RPMs and keep rest of stuff off on car

About added accesories. As far you hook accesories on alt side and you have a powerfull alt, ammeter won't even notice they are there. Problems began if:
-You hook accesories on batt side, no matter if stock or powerfull alt.
-You have a stock alt and is not able to feed everything.

Key is... find the way to keep more time as posible the amm needle on center area, no matter if sligthly below or above center line. Just keep the average load is enough. Of corse, if ammeter reads more time on Discharge area will mean you are getting emptied the batt, so in your mind need to make an average about how much time is on one side or another side, and how much high or low, to know your batt conditions.

THIS HAPPENS WITH AMMETER HOOKED OR NOT, just that ammeter will tell you what is happening on the right moment. ALL CARS HAVE DISCHARGE AT CERTAIN MOMENT so don't get a headache about that. Of course the newer the car, then more efficient the system is.