Lifter failure

[Purple440]

I've been assuming that someone would have posted this some time ago, but since it hasn't happened, I guess i will be the bearer of bad news.

GM EOS is no longer being produced. Once existing stocks are gone, it's history. !!!!!!!!!

The oil you used is definitely not the problem

Gm EOS is still being made but it will be called engine assembly lube and still available through the dealership. If they're out of stock on EOS just ask for the other product.....it's the same thing. 

The OIL is the problem. The latest Virgin oil analysis data i've seen shows even synthetic Mobil 1 10/30 as being woefully inadequate for EP additives. The old 15/50 Mobil 1 used to be descent but it too has succumbed to the EPA regulations.....ZN & Phos levels are hovering in the 1000 (or less) ppm range. Royal Purple racing and Redline racing are descent synthetic lubes but they're labelled as "off road" use only. All the new "passenger car" formulations flat out suck.....synthetics included. 



Ron

Ron,

I'm currently using the 15/50 Mobile 1 synthetic.  We called them and they said this oil would work.  If your saying it won't, are you suggesting adding the GM EOS with every oil change?  And add that to which oil if not the Mobile 1.

thx,

- Doug

[Ghoste]

And as a regular user of the GM EOS, I guess I must be in agreement.

[firefighter3931]

Firefighter, I was talking to an engine builder not long ago that said many of the cam manufacturers have recently switched to supplying lifters  from"overseas" which are made from substandard materials. He said he has been seeing more wiped cams recently.  Have you seen this recently? I'm not disputing the oil claims, just curious if crappy lifters are now a way of life too.
Dan

Dan, there are some junk lifters out there....that is true. The domestic lifters are descent quality and now that Johnson is back in the lifter business things are looking better. Machining is as important as metallurgy.....the lifter must be able to rotate in the bore or a cam failure will result. It's important for the face of the lifter to have a crown machined in to promote lifter rotation under load. Some of the offshore stuff is not machined properly and this contributes to the problem. I allways assemble the valvetrain and rotate the engine over by hand....looking at the lifters to make sure that they're rotating.....if they aren't you will have problems.

Lifter rotation and a descent lube with the proper additive package is your best chance at keeping the engine happy. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

I'm currently using the 15/50 Mobile 1 synthetic.  We called them and they said this oil would work.  If your saying it won't, are you suggesting adding the GM EOS with every oil change?  And add that to which oil if not the Mobile 1.

thx,

- Doug

Doug, the latest data on mobil 1 15/50 is showing around 1000ppm for both phos and zinc. That's not bad, compared to other oils out there, but it could be better. 

I would use the EOS with the Mobil1 15/50 on every oil change....run it all the time. Nuthing wrong with synthetic lube as long as the extreme pressure additives are present. 

Heck, for $10.00 is it worth risking a grenaded motor .....don't think so. 



Ron

[BrianShaughnessy]

I like to cocktail my oil...   and I like to use good quality lifters.   Last time I took the cheezy hollow solid MP lifters that came with the .528 and threw them in a bucket and got a set of Comp solids....   no problems.   Before that I took the MP hydraulics that came with the .509 and thew them away for Crane Hi Intensity - again... no problems.

With the upcoming stroker I'm gonna investigate the Howards lifters with the oiling hole.   Sounds promising. 

It should be noted that Comp is saying their high end lifters are Johnsons' again  - see here: http://compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/NP2007/Images/4.jpg

[my73charger]

A friend of mine was over last night to help me and he told me he was talking to someone yesterday that told him he read an article that more cams have been wiped out these last couple of years than ever before.  Of course  I am not sure how long or if anyone is actually keeping stats on this and he didn't say what the article stated as a cause but that sure is crappy.

Also on another note, I was mistaken on the kind of oil he uses, he was using the Valvoline Racing formula oil in his fresh 440 but I now have him convinced to add some EOS to avoid my mess.

[my73charger]

I just talked to the guy that built my motor and he says he used Federal Mogul lifters and I had a Comp Cam.  Are Federal lifters any good?

[firefighter3931]

I just talked to the guy that built my motor and he says he used Federal Mogul lifters and I had a Comp Cam.  Are Federal lifters any good?

Not sure who FM is sourcing their lifters from.....they could be descent or substandard offshore stuff. 

I have used COMP & Crower lifters with excellent results. I even ran the old MP stuff years ago and never had any failures....but who knows where they're getting them from now ?

The oil was a contributing factor to your engine damage.....but it's impossible to say if it was the only factor. Assuming that the machinist verified lifter rotation during mockup, then i would be inclined to place blame on the lube. 



Ron

[my73charger]

Yeah it would be interesting to know if they are made in the good ole USA.  I just bought a couple gallons of Rotella T for future use at my local parts store.  Now, if I understand correctly, I don't really need to add EOS to it correct?  Or do you still recommend it maybe?

[firefighter3931]

I would still use the EOS....run it with the Rotella. 



Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

I would ude the EOS [also available as Crankcase conditioner from Mopar ]

[Challenger340]

I'd like to see the metals content ratings on diffy EP additives ? Dunno if EPA has gone there yet ?

[firefighter3931]

I'd like to see the metals content ratings on diffy EP additives ? Dunno if EPA has gone there yet ?

Bob, i doubt that the EPA will be concerned with axle lube as it's not a by product of combustion like engine oil is. The primary reason for Zn/Phos elimination has been related to emmissions. Those EP additives (supposedly) plug up the cats and increase Hydrocarbon/Nox output levels. That is the "official" explanation from what i can gather. 

Funny how all the older Diesel trucks have been running fine with the good (CI rated) Rotella with no reported catalytic converter meltdowns. I looked around on the Diesel truck boards to see if this was ever a problem. 



Ron

[my73charger]

Hey guys I forgot to give an update on my lifter failure.  I really lucked out.  We didn't find any damage or problems in engine.  All the bearings looked good as well as the cylinders.  We did fluish the motor twice and it seems to be fine.  Great oil pressure and no smoke or anything. 

[Purple440]

Great news! 

[firefighter3931]

Hey guys I forgot to give an update on my lifter failure.  I really lucked out.  We didn't find any damage or problems in engine.  All the bearings looked good as well as the cylinders.  We did fluish the motor twice and it seems to be fine.  Great oil pressure and no smoke or anything. 

That is great news and you caught it in time. 


Ron