gear vendors- yes or no?

[gordo1968charger]

i 'm ordering a moser dana 60 with 4:10 gears at the end of the week,for my 68,i was going to use a  gear vendors overdrive on my torqueflite,what do you guys think?or shall i save more and get a keisler overdrive?
thanks
gordo

[Silver R/T]

gear vendors if you can afford it

[NYCMille]

GV - Best mod I've done to my car to date - 23,000+ miles with no trouble. 

[Nacho-RT74]

is a very future project in my mind since I can't afford $2500 right now ... less than 1:1 on D is the best for highway and save gas !!!

[gordo1968charger]

sweet;now wheres that credit card!

[68RT4ME]

 I've had my GearVendors installed about 10 months now. I run 3:91 gears switched in from 3:23's. I can run the freeway at 80mph@ 3100rpm. 85mph @ 3400rpm.. Plenty fast enough and still getting decent milage. I know you will be happy with it. 

[gordo1968charger]

the only charcoal area is having the drive shaft shortened,does that have to be done at a machine/fabrication  shop?or do you do it yourself.

[68RT4ME]

the only charcoal area is having the drive shaft shortened,does that have to be done at a machine/fabrication  shop?or do you do it yourself.

Unless you have that kind of equiptment, You need to send it to a shop. They cut and balance it to suite your specs. Mine was cut 12 inches.... By mine, I mean the drive shaft.....

[bill440rt]

Gear Vendors vs Keisler...

This is a debate I have in my head almost daily. Gear Vendors is more affordable, however Keisler is a complete kit. No driveshaft shortening, etc.

Anyone else here run a Keisler? I'd like to hear some opinions, too.

[Nacho-RT74]

didn't know about keisler... what's the diff on kit ?

[Rolling_Thunder]

hmmmm    I like GV myself... 

[bill440rt]

didn't know about keisler... what's the diff on kit ?

Here ya go:

http://www.keislerauto.com/mopar/transmissions/dakota_5spd.asp

[Steve P.]

I have never heard of a Keisler overdrive unit for an automatic. They make 5 and 6 speed MANUAL tranny's and sell a GM tranny with it's own overdrive, but I have never seen an add on unit from Keisler like the Gear Venders unit..

Here's a link to the GM tranny for Mopars they sell..  http://www.keislerauto.com/mopar/transmissions/automatic-4sp.asp



If they make such a unit that bolts to a 727 please link me to it..

[ryan053]

http://www.keislerauto.com/mopar/transmissions/automatic-4sp.asp

[471_Magnum]

I'd have reservations about running that kind of gearing without a lock-up torque convertor. Run any kind of stall, and you're going to generate a ton of heat with the GV.

Keisler, on the other hand, comes with a lock-up.

[firefighter3931]

I have never heard of a Keisler overdrive unit for an automatic. They make 5 and 6 speed MANUAL tranny's, but I have never seen a Keisler AUTO/overdrive unit.

If they make such a thing please link me to it..

Steve, Keisler is selling a 4spd auto trans which is a GM unit adapted to fit on our mopar engines. Mopar Action ran an install article awhile back complete with pics. I believe Brian Shaunessy was helping out with the installation and had his pic in the magazine. 



Ron

[Steve P.]

Yeah, I had forgotten about the GM tranny they sell. I went back and fixed my prior post as you were typing yours...   

What I was thinking was an ADD ON UNIT like the GV unit..

[BrianShaughnessy]

I have never heard of a Keisler overdrive unit for an automatic. They make 5 and 6 speed MANUAL tranny's, but I have never seen a Keisler AUTO/overdrive unit.

If they make such a thing please link me to it..

Steve, Keisler is selling a 4spd auto trans which is a GM unit adapted to fit on our mopar engines. Mopar Action ran an install article awhile back complete with pics. I believe Brian Shaunessy was helping out with the installation and had his pic in the magazine. 



Ron

   Yup.   It's not for everybody but I'm convinced it's a better solution than some.

   With any luck this weekend we may finally find out what the Beeper runs with that trans.    Rick was finishing putting 3.55's in last night.    It was 11.9x @ 118 the last time it actually ran at LVD.     New heads, new trans, more gear now.

   
 

[robertnb64]

We just installed a Gear Vendor setup in a 66 Belvedere. We had to dimple the trans tunnel to make it fit. Also having a driveshaft shortened is easy for a driveshaft shop. With balancing it's between $75 & $150. One day job.

[Steve P.]

Hey Brian, please keep us up to date on the tranny.  I've heard that the L-60E is a pretty healthy tranny and I know many Chevy guys swear by them. Love to hear your thoughts once it has been spanked a few hundred times... 

[myk]

Once the L60-E's built up then yeah.  Or, the L80-E is supposed to be a beefier unit even when stock.  Being the owner of two L60-E's and spending time on LS-1 message boards has shown me that the L60's are less than ideal in regards to strength but they can be fortified...

[BrianShaughnessy]

It's not my trans... it's E-booger's.   

[68RT4ME]

I'd have reservations about running that kind of gearing without a lock-up torque convertor. Run any kind of stall, and you're going to generate a ton of heat with the GV.

Keisler, on the other hand, comes with a lock-up.

I got following straight from The GearVendors website:

Can I run a high stall converter in overdrive with a 3.42 axle?

Yes, this is one of the most often confused questions (even when you ask people you would think would be knowledgeable). Here is the detail. Our example could be this 3.42 Chevy guy. In overdrive he is going to be a 2.67 final drive ratio. He is a Cutlass body with 27 inch tire and so at 75mph in overdrive the motor will be turning 2484 rpm and he has a 3500 stall speed on the back of a pretty nicely built 350ci motor making close to 400hp. 95% of the people you would ask (even tranny guys) would say no-way and yet we know this is an awesome package (drives wonderful, no high temps in the trans etc) why does it work? When his converter was made it was set up to stall at 3500 with 400hp. However if you put 600hp to it it would stall at something like 4500. Conversely if you only put 125hp to it (as when you are just crusing at 75mph not accelerating) then the stall is way down at 2,000 rpm. So his stall with a 3500 converter is not 3500 at cruise because he is not making 400hp. Car drives wonderful. If he romps on it while cruising then the trans is going to downshift to a lower gear and get him into the powerband. (note: read gear vendors passing gear in this section) So, this is why you never lie to you converter builder (because if you overstate your hp you will not get the stall you wanted).

The package of 3500 and 3.42 with 400hp is a sweet setup with a GEAR VENDORS . Without a GEAR VENDORS the trans will not have a great passing gear because 2nd is too low. But with a GEAR VENDORS it will it will jump right into 2nd-over which will rip nicely and put the converter right in the power. You can use this setup as a guidline and say move up or down in ratio related to stall from this good setup with a GEAR VENDORS. Below you will see we have listed an actual formula for Aerodynamic load.

Aerodynamic drag force may be defined as follows:
Fd = (1/2) Cd r A V^2 (1)
where

Fd = aerodynamic drag force
Cd = coefficient of drag
r = density of air
A = frontal area of vehicle, into the direction of motion
V = velocity of vehicle, into the direction of motion

   

I'm no tranny expert or any other kind of automotive expert but, I hope this will help answer the question. 

[471_Magnum]

I'm no tranny expert or any other kind of automotive expert but, I hope this will help answer the question. 

That was pretty much jibberish for an explanation on Gear Vendors part.

Bottom line is if you run under load for extended periods below "actual" stall speed, you risk cooking your transmission. Push a brick-like Mopar down the highway at 80 mph turning 3000 rpm with a 3800 "actual" stall converter, you better have a very good transmission cooler.

[gordo1968charger]

Gear Vendors vs Keisler...



Anyone else here run a Keisler? I'd like to hear some opinions, too.

[Musicman]

Biggest drawback to the Keisler tranny besides the fact that it's a GM Product, and ridiculously expensive, is the fact that it is severely limited in terms of the amount of HP & Torque that it can handle... In other words, if your building a 440 Stroker you can forget about the Keisler.

[Rolling_Thunder]

If i were Keisler I wouldn't offer the 4L60...    I would offer the 4L80...     stronger...    can take almost 600tq in stock form...      but oh well...        I would go 727 with a GV unit

[Steve P.]

It has been many years and I have forgotten more than I remember, but about a dozen or more years ago I worked at a GM dealership. (Hated it).. Anyway, I pulled a few L80E's from motor homes. They are a beast for sure, but they are huge and very heavy. As described to me, the reason they could take a beating is the 80 millimeter input shaft and second valve body.

We did have a few guys in the shop racing some pretty serious cars and using the L60E. I know one of them was using a couple stages of N02 on his nasty big block and was not having trouble with his tranny. Matter of fact he was usually breaking his FERD 9 inch rear ends.....   

I wonder how much the Keisler complete system is??

[bill440rt]

I'm no tranny expert or any other kind of automotive expert but, I hope this will help answer the question. 

That was pretty much jibberish for an explanation on Gear Vendors part.

Bottom line is if you run under load for extended periods below "actual" stall speed, you risk cooking your transmission. Push a brick-like Mopar down the highway at 80 mph turning 3000 rpm with a 3800 "actual" stall converter, you better have a very good transmission cooler.

Hmmm... Didn't think of that. My concern is which is a better unit for the STREET.

I've spoken with Keisler at the Carlisle show several times. They offer their auto OD trans package in 3 levels. I think even their beefiest package they quoted me was about $3800 - $4000 complete, which was able to handle 600+ hp. Now, this comes with EVERYTHING you need, from flexplate to rear U-joint & everything in between. Cooler lines, controller, driveshaft, TPS, backup lamp harness, etc.
A Gear Vendors kit will set me back $2500. Then, I have to get my trans rebuilt, buy a torque converter & flexplate (don't have either), trans mount, & get my driveshaft shortened, balanced, & new U-joints. That will eat up the balance of $1500 real easy.
Keisler is also offering a $150 rebate right now, which is making it look even better.

[Musicman]

Feel free to email them, that's what I did because they won't give you the numbers up front...

More than twice the price of the Gear Vendors unit, and if your running anything greater than stock, you'll need to go with the Stage 3 unit which is still limited in terms of what it can handle.

You can build a Super Strong 727 / GV set-up for a lot less.

[NYCMille]

I have a 2800 stall in the '68 with the GV unit and I ran that thing for 115-120mph for upwards of 75 miles straight and the tranny temp. was ok - I do have a tranny cooler but it didn't get that hot - maybe 10-15 degrees over normal - I also run Redline ATF4 fluid which I believe makes a pretty good difference as well.

I also ran the Keisler in the '69 at 90mph for about 85 miles or so on my way back from Indiana to NYC and that proved pretty bullet proof at as well. All in all both units are great and I think anyone would be happy with either/or. The big question to ask yourself is do you want a manual or an auto. 

[Musicman]

They are both nice units... I guess the point that I was trying to make was that if your running a stock or magnum style setup, either tranny will do the job very well, but the GV added to your stock 727 is a much cheaper solution. On the other side of the equation... If you need a really strong tranny, the Keisler Stage 3 is your only option, and it may not be strong enough. However, with that same cash, you can rebuild your stock 727 to heavy duty drag specs, put a GV unit on it, you'll have a super strong set-up that will handle anything you can throw at it. One thing I do like about the Keisler is the programmable shift patterns. Of course you do have to send it to them to have it reprogrammed if you want to change something, and that kinda sucks, but at least you do have a few stock shift patterns to choose from at any time... street, race, etc.

[bill440rt]

The GV unit is probably cheaper if you're putting it into an already running, driving car. Bolt on the GV, shorten the driveshaft, that's about it. My car is being built from scratch, a body only. The trans was out of the car, sitting on the side of the guy's house, for who knows how long. It needs to be gone thru. Converter is long one, etc.
The cost of doing a GV may exceed that of the Keisler kit, as everything else trans related needs to be obtained.

They both look good & have their pros & cons.

[471_Magnum]

I have a 2800 stall in the '68 with the GV unit and I ran that thing for 115-120mph for upwards of 75 miles straight and the tranny temp. was ok - I do have a tranny cooler but it didn't get that hot - maybe 10-15 degrees over normal - I also run Redline ATF4 fluid which I believe makes a pretty good difference as well.

I also ran the Keisler in the '69 at 90mph for about 85 miles or so on my way back from Indiana to NYC and that proved pretty bullet proof at as well. All in all both units are great and I think anyone would be happy with either/or. The big question to ask yourself is do you want a manual or an auto.

Point taken Mike, but I think this discussion is referring to the Keisler auto, not the Tremec set-up.

Anyway, 120 mph with a 2800 stall should be well over the actual stall speed, so heat shouldn't be an issue in that scenario.

[Musicman]

The GV unit is probably cheaper if you're putting it into an already running, driving car. Bolt on the GV, shorten the driveshaft, that's about it. My car is being built from scratch, a body only. The trans was out of the car, sitting on the side of the guy's house, for who knows how long. It needs to be gone thru. Converter is long gone, etc.

Yup, it's a 50/50 proposition in your case... actually I would probably opt for the Keisler here... a lot less work involved, plug & play for the most part.

[68RT4ME]

I'm no tranny expert or any other kind of automotive expert but, I hope this will help answer the question. 

That was pretty much jibberish for an explanation on Gear Vendors part.

Bottom line is if you run under load for extended periods below "actual" stall speed, you risk cooking your transmission. Push a brick-like Mopar down the highway at 80 mph turning 3000 rpm with a 3800 "actual" stall converter, you better have a very good transmission cooler.

You may be right but, I'm not aware of too many guy's running such a big converter in a street car much less taking it onto a highway and running at highway speeds any real distance. I'm sure there are a few but not many. The GV is built to handle up to 1200HP in it's stock form. I'd say that's pretty good and since I have one and know first hand what it's like. I can only attest for mine. It works great. I didn't have to do anything but have the driveshaft cut down. It bolted right in after tapping out a small space in the tunnel which doesn't show and I was off to the races so to speak.

I've driven my car to Jacksonville, Fl. from my home 3 hours away non-stop and back and to West Ft. Lauderdale 2.5 hours away on several occasions and no problems there. I'm not running a tranny cooler either (Though I am going to put one in). This was alot cheaper than the Keisler and so far, I'm not hearing alot of positives about it so, I'm thinking I went the right way here. BTW, I have a 2400 stall conv. and I'm in the mid 400's on HP.

Good luck.

[gordo1968charger]

to ship to england keisler was $4200,gear vendors was $2600,drive shaft shortening is about £300($700) so at the end of play there is only a couple of hundred quid difference.........BUT.......................i plan on getting a 512 stroker built in the future??
plus with keisler everything is there???
hmmmmm

[daytonakid]

I have a gear vendors in my race duster. It has a 456 dana in it. I have ran it 3 seasons now no issues. I can still drive it on the freeway. I have a keisler 5 speed in my superbird clone. Had to slightly modify tunnel but in the duster no modifications to install gear vendors. both have pluses.

[Steve P.]

to ship to england keisler was $4200,gear vendors was $2600,drive shaft shortening is about £300($700) so at the end of play there is only a couple of hundred quid difference.........BUT.......................i plan on getting a 512 stroker built in the future??
plus with keisler everything is there???
hmmmmm

$700.00 to shorten a drive shaft!!      I can get a shaft shortened and balanced around here for under $100.00.................

[472 R/T SE]

IMO it's all in who you talk to.  The GV owners are gonna swear by their unit just as much as the Keisler folks swear by theirs.  I'm not gonna talk down the Keisler just because I am a happy GV owner like happens in so many of these threads.  It's been the best purchase I've made for a classic car and the customer service has been #1.
gordo, is there any way you can get your shaft shortened any cheaper than that?  That's ridiculous.

[gordo1968charger]

it is nt an exact price,i was told by a work collegue that his friend paid £200 8 years ago for a project he had built,i was just figuring  on inflation etc,also a good idea is not to tell them its a dodge charger,otherwise the price goes up again.

[gordo1968charger]

got a quote for prop shaft shortening for £60 including balancing so long as there is no worn out parts,looks like its gear vendors all the way.