you get what you pay for.... rebuilding on a budget

[miller]

so i want to rebuild a 440 to put in my car, actually its sitting at the college right now ready to be torn apart, one thing is we have a vary... vary limited budget, and we need to make a decide right away what needs to be done with it.

so heres the deal, we only have to pay for parts, labor comes free, my budget is around 2000, use that as a benchmark, im really hoping for 400 horsepower (standard was 350 on my 440 so it shouldnt be to hard), so what parts would you favor for the price range?

[Joshua]

If your pistons are in good shape and the block checks out with no taper......you can save $$$ by reusing the pistons....
I'm sure guys will say never to do this, but I have 70,000 miles (some with nitrous) on my pistons (forged) BEFORE I reused them....now another 50,000 or so..... Even if you need pistons and a bore job, I think you can get the parts you need for under $2000.....
Have the heads done with a 3 angle valve job, bigger valves aren't really needed for 400hp, a slightly bigger cam than a Factory Magnum cam, headers, aluminum intake with a 750 or so carb......DONE! Use quality rod bolts and head bolts (I like ARP) and a Cloyes double roller timing chain, drill and tap the block for a Hemi oil pickup. If you don't have one already, get the Mopar Performance B/RB Engine book. Some of the info is outdated, but it is a very valuable resource.....

440's are easy.......have fun!

[firefighter3931]

I would buy a rebuild kit from Summit Racing and order the 2355 speedpro pistons as an option with the kit. Measure the bores after disassembly and bore accordingly. ARP rod bolts and have the rods re-conditioned and balance the whole rotating assembly. Have the block square decked while you're at it.

A good 3 angle valvejob on the heads is all you need for that power level. The cam profile will depend on the rest of the combo ; gearing/stall speed etc....

If the machine work is free then it can be done for 2k in parts....no problemo.



Ron

[aifilaw]

If your pistons are in good shape and the block checks out with no taper......you can save $$$ by reusing the pistons....
I'm sure guys will say never to do this, but I have 70,000 miles (some with nitrous) on my pistons (forged) BEFORE I reused them....now another 50,000 or so..... Even if you need pistons and a bore job, I think you can get the parts you need for under $2000.....
Have the heads done with a 3 angle valve job, bigger valves aren't really needed for 400hp, a slightly bigger cam than a Factory Magnum cam, headers, aluminum intake with a 750 or so carb......DONE! Use quality rod bolts and head bolts (I like ARP) and a Cloyes double roller timing chain, drill and tap the block for a Hemi oil pickup. If you don't have one already, get the Mopar Performance B/RB Engine book. Some of the info is outdated, but it is a very valuable resource.....

440's are easy.......have fun!

notice he said he has 770k and nitrous on his "forged" pistons....
try to reuse hyperheuratic, or stock cast, and you will regret it.
The stock bolts are fine for under 500 hp in my opinion unless age is a definite factor... and you can always tell the quality of a bolt and its threads when you pull it out and put it in.
timing chain is a must, head work is very nice.... but you can reach 400 hp with an intake, headers, and cam. heads are just a nice touch.

[AmadeusCharger500]

This was my engine price list minus machine work. I did this last month.
Don't forget the cost of the carb and intake, I did not include them here.
Hope this helps!

196   cam
185   re-ring kit
63   Fuel Pump
23   Oil pan Gaskets
336   Headers
43   Oil Drive Shaft
48   ECU orange
79   harmonic balancer
38   roller timing chain
14   spark plugs
76   Plug wires
9   Paint
19   oil pickup
50   Oil Pump
15   Collector Gaskets
200   Exhaust pipes
36   exhaust gaskets copper
12   piston stop
11   Oil Drain Plug
4   water pump gasket
14   Milodon Thermosta
12   distributor cap
27   voltage regulator
10   shipping
358   heads
127   vavle springs
95   retainers and locks
60   extra locks
450   pistons

Total Engine Parts   2567

[miller]

This was my engine price list minus machine work. I did this last month.
Don't forget the cost of the carb and intake, I did not include them here.
Hope this helps!

196   cam
185   re-ring kit
63   Fuel Pump
23   Oil pan Gaskets
336   Headers
43   Oil Drive Shaft
48   ECU orange
79   harmonic balancer
38   roller timing chain
14   spark plugs
76   Plug wires
9   Paint
19   oil pickup
50   Oil Pump
15   Collector Gaskets
200   Exhaust pipes
36   exhaust gaskets copper
12   piston stop
11   Oil Drain Plug
4   water pump gasket
14   Milodon Thermosta
12   distributor cap
27   voltage regulator
10   shipping
358   heads
127   vavle springs
95   retainers and locks
60   extra locks
450   pistons

Total Engine Parts   2567

when you did this... was this all just back to stock, or was this a more performance oriented build?

[supserdave]

If you only want 400 hp, a cam, intake, and headers will get you that easy. Stock rebuild on everything else, make sure your compression is 9.3-1 or so. Heck, even without headers it shouldn't be to hard to get that.

[miller]

OK i forgot to mention one detail, the machine shop will cost regular price... the college is taking the motor apart and putting it back together for free (i didn't realize the machinist play such a big roll), how much does it usually cost to do a 3 angle valve job, and how much does it cost to have it square decked (also what does that mean... sorry some of this stuff is over my head)


also this isn't a magnum 440, just a normal 440, but with the forged steel crank), will that make a difference, does it change any of the recommendations?

[AmadeusCharger500]

150 valve job
115 recondition rods
90 press pistons
150 grind crank
71 magnaflux
150 line hone
46 cam bearing install

Really just a standard build. I paid more for some later model heads(oops you should subtract that from the price), edelbeock intake, 4 barrel carb, and adding the headers but I think the rest is pretty standard stuff.
So you can take away about 900 from my list if you don't get a new exhaust and of course the heads, but add about 300 back for the intake and carb.

[Joshua]

also this isn't a magnum 440, just a normal 440, but with the forged steel crank), will that make a difference, does it change any of the recommendations?

The difference between a Mag and reg 440 is basically the exhaust manifolds, intake manifold and camshaft...and you'll be swapping out those parts anyway.....

[supserdave]

And pistons I think? But if you bore it out no difference there.

[miller]

how much of a difference does the machining do?

as far as the square decked block, balancing, and the valve job, would you miss any of those if you didnt do them... which is more beneficial then the others?

also the hemi oil pickup, what are the benefits in that?

[supserdave]

You want to do the machine work once and do it right. I wouldn't skip on any of those steps. You could get by without balancing, but I wouldn't spin it much over 5500 rpm.

[471_Magnum]

If you change pistons, you're looking at $200 to have everything balanced.

Keith Black makes a nice forged piston. $439 from Summit, less on Ebay.

I've got the price list from my local machine shop somewhere around here....

[aifilaw]

honestly you can take a big chunk of change off of the balancing bill by internally balancing it yourself
a scale (I've done this to perfection using a hand-built scale, the old type where there is a metal bar across a pivot point and that's all) and a dremel or die-grinder will handle the pistons and rods.
take it to a machine shop and tell them you've already balanced those components, they will put the crank on the spinner and balance that, then place your comoponents on and check balance, if you did them right it should require minimal work from there and your bill will be much less.

[firefighter3931]

how much of a difference does the machining do?

as far as the square decked block, balancing, and the valve job, would you miss any of those if you didnt do them... which is more beneficial then the others?

also the hemi oil pickup, what are the benefits in that?

Quality machinework is EVERYTHING....you don't want to hack a motor together. 

Square decking and balancing are "routine" procedures for any performance build. The balancing will allow the engine to run smoother and not vibrate itself to death when you rev the hell out of it. If you plan to beat on this engine at all....balance it !

For a mild street/strip build the 1/2in hemi pickup mod isn't really necessary. I would recommend the 6qt hemi pan for inceased capacity along with a windage tray and HV oil pump.


Ron

[471_Magnum]

Around here, it's $200, plus mallory metal if needed, whether or not they equalize the pistons and rods. This particular shop is very good though, and only does balancing. They service all the automotive machine shops in the area.

If you're going to balance the components yourself, get a good scale. Something that measures +/- 0.5 grams or better. And calibrate it.

Most postal or kitchen scales will only give +/- 1.0 grams.

[Joshua]

Definitely balance your engine.....one of THE best things you can do for your engine.....
As for the Hemi pickup.....I always replace oil pump pickups when rebuilding an engine, and it's pretty easy to tap the block out to 1/2" pipe, the pickup tubes are the same price.....so why not?

[firefighter3931]

As for the Hemi pickup.....I always replace oil pump pickups when rebuilding an engine, and it's pretty easy to tap the block out to 1/2" pipe, the pickup tubes are the same price.....so why not?[/b]

To answer the why not question ; Basicly it's not needed unless the engine is going to see 6500+ rpm on a regular basis. The 1/2in pickup should be used with a large pan and high volume oilpump.....that's how it will be best utilized.

Most street engines rarely see that type of rpm...especially hydraulic cam builds so it's basicly overkill. The std 3/8in PU will supply plenty of oil under those circumstances. 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

Doesn't get anymore "realtime" than this. Just picked up my block and crank from the machine shop. Here's the bill.

[miller]

If you change pistons, you're looking at $200 to have everything balanced.

Keith Black makes a nice forged piston. $439 from Summit, less on Ebay.

I've got the price list from my local machine shop somewhere around here....

which is better the keith black pistons... or the speed-pro.. i see the keith black are more expensive but does it make that large of a performance difference?

[471_Magnum]

The Speed Pros are heavy slugs.

Lighter=better.

[miller]

so basically this project has went from a 500 dollar (just replacing gaskets to a 1500 dollar (rebuilt to stock) to a 3000 dollar project... i hope i don't sound greedy here, but for 3000 I'm hoping that all the stuff you guys have said will equal to a little more then 400 horsepower..

so if i balanced it, square decked the block, gave it a 3 way valve job, put the hemi pickup on it to make sure it survives, used the Keith Black pistons, with a better cam (but not one that wont make it idle) a dominator intake, and headers, where would that land as far as horsepower is concerned...

[aifilaw]

Well, once again I say, too much $$ for not enough payoff...
power is made in the heads.
As far as I'm concerned there are three ways of doing things...

1. getting it running so its drivable.
2. rebuilding it with the end-goal in mind
3. doing it half-way and doing it again, but spending twice as much money.

If you proceed with what you just mentioned, you will be doing number 3.
If you switch to number 2 then there are two important factors to consider right now.
Shortblock, and heads.

make your short block bulletproof with the end goal in mind (stroker or not, forged and sturdy and balanced)
put some heads on there that have a lot of potential... at this point half-assing it is going to get you somewhere you don't want to be, and it will take a lot  more money to make a set of iron heads flow anywhere near 280 on the intake than just buying a bolt-on set of edelbrock's.

From there you can save your pennies and upgrade the cam and the rest of the valve train, headers, intake, carb, et cetera... one at a time if you don't have the cash up front and you will have an end result you will be proud of.

If you proceed with the route you have now, then yes, 400 at the flywheel is probably achievable now, if not later with the addition of boltons, but it will all get thrown to the wayside when you decide to upgrade later.
If you pour $4,000 into the short block, machine work, and new heads. then you will be close to 400 hp with nothing else.... then in a year when you have another $1k to burn you can bump that up to 500 with a cam and valvetrain swap, more with the other boltons.

[bull]

I guess it all depends on where you are and what you want. I just talked to an engine rebuilder here in town who told me he can do a stock, long block rebuild on my 383 and balance it for $2,300 including parts and labor. It comes with a warranty too. I forgot to ask how long the warranty is but I think it's one year from installation.

http://portlandenginerebuilders.com/index2.html

[aifilaw]

not horrible... but he's going to use cast heavy pistons and flimsy parts... try putting 450 hp to that... have some bad gas from the station and romp on it and the results won't be pretty.

[bull]

not horrible... but he's going to use cast heavy pistons and flimsy parts... try putting 450 hp to that... have some bad gas from the station and romp on it and the results won't be pretty.

That's possible I suppose but I don't know why that has to be the assumption. At any rate I can provide all my own parts, deduct that from the bill and still get the warranty.

[Challenger340]

I guess it all depends on where you are and what you want. I just talked to an engine rebuilder here in town who told me he can do a stock, long block rebuild on my 383 and balance it for $2,300 including parts and labor. It comes with a warranty too. I forgot to ask how long the warranty is but I think it's one year from installation.

http://portlandenginerebuilders.com/index2.html

I dunno how anybody can afford to do that, and warranty it ?

Nonetheless, all the power to them if they can.

I certainly cannot.
Not if I wanna eat/pay employees to eat.
And yes, I actually own all the equipment to do it for myself, and the parts- "W.D." lines.

Some trivia;
Years back, when I phoned the owner of another shop in my area, who was offering similarily priced "attractive" complete, and warrantied engines, inquiring "how the heck can you do that ?"
Here was the exact question;
"R**", hi it's Bob, hey R**, how in the heck can you guys rebuild a chevy 350, dunk, mag, bore, hone, square deck the block, line hone, R & R Pistons, size rods, grind the crank, yadda, yadda, rebuild the heads "properly", yadda, yadda,  supply ALL the parts, assemble it, and sell it with a WARRANTY for $1599 ?"

Here was his exact response; "who says we do all that"

Further conversation, in a nutshell, without getting too involved here, revealed many, what I would term "inadequacies" and "short cuts", involved in criterion, amounting to what I'll call, different ideas about "rebuilding/machining" an engine.

He had many valid points, not the least of which, were the targeted applications of the "rebuilder" style engines he was offering. That was the market he was in I guess, and he had no problems with it.

"R**'s" shop is now closed finally, after many financial restructurings(eleven over many years).

This thread, IMHO, could be aptly named "you get what you pay for".

I personally, and this is NOT a knock on whatever engine rebuilder, am always very curious, of exactly what tolerances in machining, parts, and "labor to time" management criterion for the employees, is being applied, as per the "targeted" application for this type of engine. Problem for me is, I think I already know.

Hey, I been wrong before ! No doubt 'bout that.

Again, Just my opinion, but NOBODY is in business, to LOSE money on engines.

[bull]

I hear you, but this place has been in business since '72 so I don't think they've made a habit of screwing people over.
http://alaskaoregonwesternwashington.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=50001060&language=1


And on the other end of the scale: http://chicago.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=46000098&language=1

[chargerman68]

found out the 3 major things u dont want to cheap out on is motor/wiring and paint

[Challenger340]

not horrible... but he's going to use cast heavy pistons and flimsy parts... try putting 450 hp to that... have some bad gas from the station and romp on it and the results won't be pretty.

That's possible I suppose but I don't know why that has to be the assumption. At any rate I can provide all my own parts, deduct that from the bill and still get the warranty.

You can supply all your own parts, and STILL get the warranty ?

WOW ! That's great !

I don't think anybodies in the business to screw people over, I just think there's some misconceptions as to what people THINK they are getting for that kind of money, and, the INTENDED applications of the final product that is being WARRANTIED.

Don't matter, if they can do it for that, all the power to them, and those that buy it.

"You Supply" Suggestions; ARP connecting rod bolts, or pioneer sps,(assuming they're changed on this rebuild when the rods are resized)
                                     Some decent C.R. Pistons(KB), lighter.
                                     Moly rings
                                     Mild Camshaft, "brand name" aftermarket, NO "RV" white box stuff, something with a stated range to 5200 rpm, factory adv. redline for a magnum engine.
                                     Reco'd springs for above cam(single & damper)
                                     Roller T/chain & gearset.
                                     Clevitte Rod & Main brg's
                                     Main studs ?  you don't really need these, but "nice to have".

Also, make sure they balance the flexplate & harmonic balancer in the job.

The above shouldn't affect "warranty", should it ?

or the cost ?



                           
                           

[aifilaw]

Diamond makes some good pistons

[bull]

not horrible... but he's going to use cast heavy pistons and flimsy parts... try putting 450 hp to that... have some bad gas from the station and romp on it and the results won't be pretty.

That's possible I suppose but I don't know why that has to be the assumption. At any rate I can provide all my own parts, deduct that from the bill and still get the warranty.

You can supply all your own parts, and STILL get the warranty ?

WOW ! That's great !

I don't think anybodies in the business to screw people over, I just think there's some misconceptions as to what people THINK they are getting for that kind of money, and, the INTENDED applications of the final product that is being WARRANTIED.

Don't matter, if they can do it for that, all the power to them, and those that buy it.

"You Supply" Suggestions; ARP connecting rod bolts, or pioneer sps,(assuming they're changed on this rebuild when the rods are resized)
                                     Some decent C.R. Pistons(KB), lighter.
                                     Moly rings
                                     Mild Camshaft, "brand name" aftermarket, NO "RV" white box stuff, something with a stated range to 5200 rpm, factory adv. redline for a magnum engine.
                                     Reco'd springs for above cam(single & damper)
                                     Roller T/chain & gearset.
                                     Clevitte Rod & Main brg's
                                     Main studs ?  you don't really need these, but "nice to have".

Also, make sure they balance the flexplate & harmonic balancer in the job.

The above shouldn't affect "warranty", should it ?

or the cost ?



                           
                           

It would only effect the cost in the amount by which those parts cost more than the parts they use. I don't know all the details yet but I was told they use Keith Black pistons.

As far as assumptions about what people are getting and the application, they warranty STOCK rebuilds, in other words they will not warranty race engines. By stock I mean you can have a 440 rebuilt to the stock R/T rating from 1968 or 1970, etc., but if the hp rating starts to exceed that number by very much they will no longer warranty the work because it then becomes a "high-performance race engine" or whatever term they've coined for it. So I doubt any of that stuff you mentioned in the parts list above would effect that except maybe the cam, depending on how radical it is.