Destroy all rust! But for how much?

[myk]

So I'm finally going to take care of the rust spots on my otherwise straight '69 Charger.  I've heard so many horror stories about hack body shops that I took forever and finally settled in on a shop that seemed trustworthy with some support from local car guys.  My MAIN concern was fixing the dutchman panel, or rear window filler panel.  Now that there's a 'repro panel that includes the window channel I figured it'd be an easy cut and fit job for the shop, however they quoted me $2800 just to do that one panel.  Is that a reasonable price? 

So, a buddy of mine tells me that his friend who's run a body shop for 11 years has relocated to San Diego and that he'd like to look at my car.  I was figuring on another 2K quote, instead he proposes to do the dutchman/rear window panel for $400 (?!).  How the hell do you go from $2800 to $400?!  My buddy blurted out that the other place quoted $2800, and his body shop pal laughed and said that for $2800 he could do ALL of the body work and repaint the car to the point of perfection beyond the factory.  My buddy's '71 Nova SS has had all of its bodywork done by his friend after various accidents and whatnot and the work is, at least by my eyes, excellent.

Which one of these shops is the one I should run away from?  2K is steep for 1 panel but if that's what it costs to fix it right then I'm all for it.  Should I trust this 2nd shop?  This guy offered to fix ALL of my rust for $500, and I'm tempted to bring the car to him ASAP-after all the Charger and I ain't getting younger and the rust isn't stopping.  Are my rust spots as easy to fix as I'm told?  Any advice and input from you guys will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!
Here are the pictures of all of the rust issues that I have found, a total of 6:












Picture Host - PicTiger

[Charger-Bodie]

BOTH!!!

[myk]

So, how much should I be looking to spend then?  Also, how can you tell if a shop is trustworthy or not?  I say it's a gamble no matter what I do or where I go...

[Silver R/T]

ask your buddy's buddy what exactly will be done and have him put it on the paper/estimate

[hemi-hampton]

The $2,800 for the one panel sounds way to high, The $400 sounds more like it but then to say he could do the whole car for $2,800 in body work & paint sounds rediculous in my opinion. When I hear a stupid comment like that then they are going to give you a Earl Schieb Garbage job or they are just saying what you want to hear. I notice the shops with all the cars are not always because they do the best work but because they are the biggest bullshitters/con artist. Tell you exactly what you want to hear & it works. What do you want to hear, Everybody wants to hear the body shop say I can crank you out a mint show car in 2 weeks for 2 grand, Result, Duhhh, OK, Lets do it. LEON.

[myk]

I assure you he was being sarcastic, commenting on the other shop's sky high quote for just the 1 panel.  I already spoke to him about working the whole car over-he gave me a number and I can't afford that right now.  The car is in great shape, I just want to kill the rust before it spreads-heck, I even told the guy to just leave the repair work in primer, and not painted.  $2K for 1 panel was ridiculous but 4 or 5 hundred for all of my rust spots seemed a little too easy, even though this guy insists that the rust spots that I have are a piece of cake to deal with, hence the low quote.

Based on my pictures, woiuld you guys in the know agree that the rust spots aren't too difficult to deal with and therefor accurate for the low price?

[hemi-hampton]

Lots of different ways to deal with rust, Cut out rust & make a Patch, or cut out entire panel & replace entire panel, Or just Sandblast around rear window rust, bondo pits, prime & paint, or Earl Schieb it cheap by grinding rust, Prime & Paint. Different metods effect price. I could bondo up a rust bucket for $1,000 or practically fabricate a all new car by replacing most panels for $50,000. Best way to go is have all rust cut out & removed & maybe remove & replace entire panel if necessary, this is expensive. You can bet anybody that qoutes a cheap price is not going to do it this way or do it right. Ask how it will be done, ask if it will be replaced. If they cut out entire panels tell them you wanta see the old & new panels because if you dont it may not get done, I know, I worked in Bodyshops for 25 years. LEON.

[The70RT]

Like LEON says  If he says he's cutting it all out he shouldn't have a problem with you checking on it as it progresses. If he don't want you in the shop then stay away.

[myk]

Good points guys, and thanks for the input.  This guy actually did tell me he wanted me to buy the panel with the window channel and provide it to him-he said it'd be better and safer than trying to 'fab something up.  If I go that route I will  be sure to request seeing the old panel or any pieces he removes as proof of the work done...

[moparguy01]

if somebody can take a car like that and repair it for 2800 bucks and get it in paint, and do it right, I need a name, phone number, and his address. I do this for a living but I wouldnt touch that for 2800 bucks. but if someone would do that and right then I'd be the middle man making money. 

most the other guys here who do resto for a living would probably do the same thing.

[myk]

Um, with all due respect some of you guys are missing the point.  I already said that the guy was "joking" in reference to the other shop quoting $2800 just to change out 1 panel, which I guess in his eyes is as ridiculous as offering to restore a car for $2800.  He certainly did NOT offer to restore my car for $2800.  The quote I got to paint the entire car was definitely more than I can afford right now.  I am just concerned with killing the small amounts of rust that I have now-the 300 coats of sublime green paint will be for another day.  I just wanted to know from you guys if the $4-500 friend price I was quoted for just stopping the rust sounded proper, as I don't know anything about bodywork...

[SeattleCharger]

 

[AutoRust]

I just wanted to know from you guys if the $4-500 friend price I was quoted for just stopping the rust sounded proper, as I don't know anything about bodywork...

In my opinion, it sounds way to cheap. In this industry you get what you pay for. $400 to do that repair is low-ball price. A backyard guy might be able to do it cheaper then a tax paying legal business, but is that what your looking for? What do you want for results ?
I think $2800 sounds a bit high, but, was he going to remove/replace the window, new gasket, new trim clips, repair the rust, as well as any unseen rust in the window area, then paint it all to match? In that case $2800 isn't so unreasonable.
The last rear window repair I did took 24 hours. We had to remove the window, remove some ugly vinyl top, remove the dutchman panel, repair the side of the window channel, replace the corners, repair one of the braces that holds the panel in place, install the panel, some plastic work on the repairs, install new trim clips, install a new back window then primer. 24x$75/hr =$1800. Panel = $145, clips =$16, shipping = $45, window = $185, thats $2191 total, no finish paint.

I am not suggesting your damage is as bad, however with rust, you just never know.

Good luck with your project !!                         

Dave

[chargerman68]

So, how much should I be looking to spend then?  Also, how can you tell if a shop is trustworthy or not?  I say it's a gamble no matter what I do or where I go...

where r u located

[SeattleCharger]

Maybe try and get a third quote, since these two seem high and low examples of ways to fix the rust.   Ask questions about process, if they act like you are bothering them and wasting their time with your questions, forget about them.  Find someone who will spend a little time explaining how they are going to do it and why that their plan is a good way for what you are wanting.   or read the body work threads some more first and learn differences between metal replacement, grinding and body filler, etc., not that you aren't familiar with that, but then you can ask better questions and maybe know more about what you are getting quoted for.   

[Old Moparz]

Even though I'd say the $2800 is expensive, I'm going to agree that it isn't as out of line as you may think. I got 2 quotes to fix a dent in my truck that shocked me, one was $1500 & one was $1100. I went the route of one of those paintless dent repair guys for $300. It looks okay, but I can still see the remains of where it was fixed. Look at the 2 pics below, both shops said the cap & the rear bumper have to come off, the bed liner has to come out, then theres the issue of the clear coat over the paint. There's a big overhead, but I can't do it & decided to pass on having my insurance company cover it for several reasons.

[chargerman68]

doesnt look to bad for 300 verus 1500 for a repaint job

[Mike DC]

 
A lot of good shops will want $400-500 just to spray the first pint of fresh paint onto something. 
That's just the reality of their paint, primer, labor, and tool depreciation costs these days.


Metal work hits the thousands FAST. 

 

[bull]

I just saw my receipt where they had about 7 hrs of labor on my Dutchman panel and I'm guessing it cost around $300 for the part (from what I see on Ebay), so altogether I believe it cost me around $800-$1,000 to have mine done. I assume his estimate of $400 does not include the price of the part, right? If so I'm guessing it'll cost about the same as what I paid. And yes, $2,800 sounds pretty dang high.

All you have to do is get his shop rate, a time estimate on the job and a price quote on the part and that will tell you exactly what it's going to cost. If he'll put that in writing, all the better.

[69chargeryeehaa]

i may be going out on a limb here, but why not do it yourself?  It's really not that hard, if your the type to research, learn, and have paitence, they try it, what will happen?  what's there to loose?  you could even cut out the rust, and fiberglass it, or sand it all down and even bondo it, use rust inhibitors, ect....heck even put grease on it to at least slow down the rust process.....anything but leave it be and watch it get worse.  I allways take my time to do it myself, learning, getting the right tools, and practice.  When you get right down to it it's quite easy.  I've made tonns of body parts with tin snips, and auto body dolly's/hammers, and my crappy welder, and they actually came out 100% perfect, sure i worked a little patch for 3 hours, but my time is free, and the satasifaction is priceless....

[myk]

I seriously did consider doing the work myself.  After buying the Trans-Am I realized I couldn't afford to keep sending all 4 cars to get serviced all of the time-I've learned to do alot of stuff on my own.  However, based on Bull's numbers:

I believe it cost me around $800-$1,000 to have mine done. I assume his estimate of $400 does not include the price of the part, right? If so I'm guessing it'll cost about the same as what I paid. And yes, $2,800 sounds pretty dang high.

I figure that after buying welding equipment, whatever tools I'd need to cut out the panels, as well as the panels themselves, I'd be at the same price as farming out the work to a 'pro,  and at least I wouldn't be stuck with the equipment afterwards.  Also, you just KNOW there's a good chance I'll ruin not only the replacement panel I buy, but other parts of the car as well; after all, I've never cut or welded on anything and I don't want the Charger to be the place I start learning.  Besides, I can imagine my landlord and neighbors freaking out if the sparks started to fly.

I greatly appreciate your responses guys.  Whatever good happens from all of this I'll have you guys to thank for it.

By the way, is there something like a step by step write up or something on how to go about doing any of this work?  I didn't find any threads on removing the dutchman/window filler panel but I figure some of you guys must've done this yourselves...

[The70RT]

If your not ever plan on doing any other metal work then maybe farm it out. Get some scrap metal to practice on before hand. You would be surprised how many uses a welder comes in handy for. And as far as neighbors.......been there done that. Grinding is when the their tears and my sparks fly. Grinding is kinda loud. I did most of my metal work last winter with the garage door shut. I didn't plan it that way I was just at that stage of the resto. I am on the body work finish part now and the DA is not as loud. I still get turned in and they can't do jack. The city allowed me to build a garage and I am gonna use it. If they don't like all my noise they can move.....and some have

[myk]

Ok, so I'm like completey clueless when it comes to metal work.  I would be grinding out that deck panel, right?  Or would I burn it out with a welder? 

[The70RT]

Ok, so I'm like completey clueless when it comes to metal work.  I would be grinding out that deck panel, right?  Or would I burn it out with a welder? 

You would need a oxy-acetylene torch to cut it out. An air die grinder with cut off wheel would be better and would  leave a smoother cut too. You wont need the welder (wirefeed) till you installed the piece. Show a pick of the dutchman panel. The preveous pics don't look that bad?

[myk]

What's that like-grinding out a panel of metal?  Is it as dramatic as I think it is? 

[BMOTOXSTAR]

Wow,
  My pal charged me $3000 plus paint & clear & primer for my deal. He did some metal work as well. I guess I should be happy with that price.
Even though I have to take it back to someone cause he did not do a good job under the rockers & I had to pay someone to polish all the swirl marks out.

[myk]

$3K for the whole car, or just a panel?

[The70RT]

By the pics you showed I don't think I would cut the whole panel out. Mine was almost that bad and it was fixable. I had a lot of rust on my Cutlass and had it all done with a very nice but not show job for 1800 so It just depends on the people doing it. He short cutted it on some things but for the price and what the car is I didn't go wrong.

[bull]

Myk,

I don't want to try to confuse your decision or second-guess your abilities but I'm of the opinion that a classic Charger is not the vehicle on which to experiment with body work. If we were talking about a '92 Buick I'd say start carving on it in a heartbeat but if there's one thing I want done right it's the body work and paint on my Charger, that's why I'm leaving it to the professionals. When it comes to restoring the grill, seats, console, etc., I'll gladly do that myself and am confident it will turn out fine but I know myself and my abilities and have concluded that it's not something I should/could tackle if it's going to be right (plus I had a bad experience trying to do body work on my '70 years ago). The main thing is that you have to know yourself and your level of confidence and abilities before you grab the torch or grinder and go to town.

[BMOTOXSTAR]

$3K for the whole car, or just a panel?

Entire car, he did base clear and lots of metal work. The engine bay I will have to redo myself. The entire time he was saying that I am lucky to get it done for that price.
The belly is not painted, he did the jams engine bay and trunk. I will post some pic's.
I still owe him $250, I am pissed & was not going to pay cause' he did not polish it with the foam pad & was sussposed to put the stripes on.I did the stripes myself &
traded a pal an old carb & intake to take the swirls out.
It is the Charger that is my avatar pic.

[AutoRust]

What's that like-grinding out a panel of metal?  Is it as dramatic as I think it is? 

Get a copy of the December issue Mopar Muscle
Page 36 there is a tech article about replacing the dutchman panel on a 68 Road Runner
It just happens to be right after the tech article about our Safe-T-Cap frame repair kits.