is xv overpriced?

[miller]

i was just wondering if the suspension kits they offer are overpriced and/or overrated from the competitions

their suspension 1 kit costs nearly 2,400 dollars, would it be better just to buy parts from separate places rather than just a kit from xv, how much would it cost for comparative kits and how close would they compare?

basically, what would you recommend for the suspension, i would like to handle decent, i realize its not going to beat my friends rx7 in a slalom but i would like it not to feel like a boat on the high seas.

[Blakcharger440]

I dont think any other company other than XV has as much engineering time wrapped up in the suspension parts that they produce. That cost is passed on to the customer.
Whether or not their suspension products perform better than other brands remains to be seen.
I have seen and rode in many great handling mopars with simple but effective suspensions.

I think probably 90% in the hobby cannot afford to buy most of what XV is offering but they do offer a few parts that are reasonable like their 3 point belt kits.

Rebuild your front suspension so that it is not worn out (I would use a polyurethane kit).I would get some stiffer torsion bars,bigger front sway bar and maybe a rear one. Get some good shocks like ones from Edelbrock.
You may want to add some rigidity to your car by adding subframe connectors. Upgrading your brakes is always a good idea and there are tons of aftermarket choices out there depending upon your budget.

[Blakcharger440]

Also I think XV should offer their aluminum K member, spindles, rack system and other stuff separately at a good price so if someone wanted to slowly piece together Level ll kit then they would be able to without coughing up the $8K in one large chunk.....however this is just my opinion.

[kamkuda]

  with Blakcharger

I used an Addco sway bar from Summit Racing and KYB shocks,  With decent tires, it made a Significant improvement, I have the rear sway bar, stiffer torsion bars and frame connectors to add.  This should improve it further.  I am very happy with the results so far and did not spend much to get there.

BTW Tires and 17 Rims made a huge difference.  I believe there are better shocks than KYB's (like edelbrocks). I may check after everything else is installed. 

XV has some amazing stuff for the high end build.  I know someone who track tested one of their cars at Mosport in Ontartio.  Just incredibly well scienced out.  Their stuff is just in a whole difference arena, Like WOW

[miller]

this may sound stupid, but i couldnt find it anywhere on the site, the edelbrock shocks are $76.95, is that each or a pair... , also how much work is it to add sway bars?

edit: i figured out it was each... but what thickness sway bars are required... im guessing the thicker they are the less roll, but the harsher the ride, so whats a good compromise..

also, frame connectors, do bolt on connectors work as well as weld on ones, the reason i ask is because we just redid the interior and i would hate to have to tear it all back out so we can weld on the floor again

[terrible one]

Here's the general thoughts on bolt on connectors:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,15278.0.html

[kamkuda]

You will love these frame connector!   Strong and looks stock.
http://www.uscartool.com/Bframeconn/index.html

[kamkuda]

This is possibly your application.  Depends on the year of your car and if you had an existing sway bar from factory.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ACO%2D154&view=1&N=700+150+4294908078+4294908067+4294925083+

I did not have any sway bars and it was not too difficult an install.  I drilled thru the front lower control arm and used the spacers to set the distance from the K frame.

[Mike DC]

 
A top engine-builder might ring up $10,000 in custom labor to squeeze another 5% out of a motor within the rules of the racing league it's intended for.  That's a terrible value for a guy building a street car, but the racing teams will absolutely eat it up.  "Overpriced" can be a pretty a relative term.


The XV stuff is awesome for what it is, but it's totally overkill for most of us.  Most of us could just use a decent suspension overhaul with some slightly different spring/shock/sway/bushing rates, and then add some frame connectors & torque boxes to the chassis.   

 

[Dodge Don]

XV is in a different stratosphere than other companies......it is like saying a why doesn't Mercedes charge the same for their cars as KIA. It is a serious company for serious enthusiasts.

[Blakcharger440]

this may sound stupid, but i couldnt find it anywhere on the site, the edelbrock shocks are $76.95, is that each or a pair... , also how much work is it to add sway bars?

edit: i figured out it was each... but what thickness sway bars are required... im guessing the thicker they are the less roll, but the harsher the ride, so whats a good compromise..

also, frame connectors, do bolt on connectors work as well as weld on ones, the reason i ask is because we just redid the interior and i would hate to have to tear it all back out so we can weld on the floor again

Oh yeah,  I would also swap out the stock steering box for a box from Firm Feel. I have heard great things about the Level 3 unit as that is what I am getting ready to order also. Some say its one of the best mods made to their car.

[Silver R/T]

their parts are very good quality imo but very expensive. You can get same setup for late model mustang, imports, etc for way less. They see is that nobody else's making same quality suspension parts and you don't have a much choice as a Charger owner but go to them and buy it or .... just leave you Charger floating on those bias ply tires and 40yr old shocks.

[Mike DC]

Yeah, but not all aftermarket suspension parts are created equal.  Plenty of the Mustang & Chevy aftermarket "good stuff" is barely where the Mopar stuff was from the factory.


IMHO the Mopar XV stuff isn't equaled anywhere else with GM & Ford.  The major-league changes in geometry that can't even be done without cutting the car, the aluminum control arms & other hard parts, the chassis stiffness testing on a platform that was already as stiff as a lot of modern cars, etc. 

I mean, one of the articles pointed out that the XV's rear leaf spring packages are SOFTER than the factory!  I think that little decision reflects a lot about the mindset that went into that deal.  Seems like a real willingness to ignore conventional wisdom and make decisions purely on what actually works in testing.

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

great products ?  yes...

Overpriced ?  probably not for what you get...

Overkill for 99% of us ? Yes...


Its not a question of overpricing...   it is merely a question of what is needed...    Say you pull a 1.0G in an XV car....       Build up your stock suspension with poly bushings, bigger torsion bars, firm feel box, boxed lower control arms, subframe connectors, and tubular upper arms...     pull a .96G        in my opinion there isnt much difference between 1.0G and .96G  --- as someone else pointed out - it is not needed to most people...     I plan on road racing my charger...    but couldnt afford $200,000+ for the XV car...     So I'm building something that isnt as great but I'll have less than $30,000 into it when all is said and done.

[Silver R/T]

great products ? yes...

Overpriced ? probably not for what you get...

Overkill for 99% of us ? Yes...


Its not a question of overpricing... it is merely a question of what is needed... Say you pull a 1.0G in an XV car.... Build up your stock suspension with poly bushings, bigger torsion bars, firm feel box, boxed lower control arms, subframe connectors, and tubular upper arms... pull a .96G in my opinion there isnt much difference between 1.0G and .96G --- as someone else pointed out - it is not needed to most people... I plan on road racing my charger... but couldnt afford $200,000+ for the XV car... So I'm building something that isnt as great but I'll have less than $30,000 into it when all is said and done.

agreed

[Mike DC]

I'm just glad somebody took it to that level even if it's never a mass-market thing. 

So many of those G-machine/Pro-Touring buildups are just a bunch of heim joints & 35-series tires that wouldn't survive a day in the real world.  Any dumbass can make a car handle when you rollcage it to death, put the suspension's functional range of travel at practically zero, and take all the compliance out of the bushings.  But XV's project really put the work into improving the platform in all the hard ways. 

And we should be glad that XV didn't just weld some aftermarket chassis parts off a storebought Camaro or Mustang II underneath a Mopar shell, either.  They could have done that and the old-car press would have drooled over it.  That would have just propagated the perception that Chevy/Ford aftermarket hardware is the only stuff worth using. 

As it is, I think there's only a little bit of C5 Corvette stuff on the front end.  The main front-end geometry isn't entirely just transplanted 'Vette stuff, but rather it was custom-done for the Mopar platform and just used a couple of 'Vette parts that fit the bill.   
 
 

[Rolling_Thunder]

i dont think anyone is critisizing the quality of the parts or engineering standpoint - it is just financially out of reach for 95% of people in the hobby...   

One thing I am rather puzzled by...     I would think XV would have performance numbers from their 001 Challenger by now...   For a company that deals with major suspension upgrades I did not find anything they showed hard numbers on their site....     maybe they just haven't updated ?    or maybe I passed over it ?

[NYCMille]

There was actually just a Road & Track article about them comparing the XV Challenger with a bone stock Chally RT. Obviously it was better than the stock car but the performance #'s were less than staggering.

- .90 on the skidpad
- Braking from 70-0 is 183 feet or so
- 0-60 in 5.3

Decent #'s but nothing crazy - Road & Track said it was comparible to a new Mustang but that a new Corvette would basically leave it for dead.

[Rolling_Thunder]

.90 on the skidpad....    I would never think to pay the $$$ they are asking for that performance....      I am sorry - but I can almost assure you that the average joe can make that with a stock style suspension.

Braking...     curious why not the typical 60-0

0-60 in 5.3 

Mike your absolutely correct - those are not staggering numbers by any means...      Planning on taking Mr. Angry to their track event and showing them how its done?

[NYCMille]

I am actually going to the track day at XV and I am VERY curious to see how my car with basically off the shelf components stacks up to the XV Challenger so it should be very interesting. Just debating on whether or not to drop so more coin on a new set of tires and maybe bump up the anti a little from the Nitto NT555s that I am currently running.

It's going to be an expensive day as is so we'll see. Just wish more people from DC.com were going. Hell, even as guests you guys would have a great time.

[Silver R/T]

Id go if it were closer.

[Mike DC]

 
Sounds like fun.  I'd love to go at all, let alone the fun of taking my car on it. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


As for the XV discussion, I think there's a lot more to handling than skidpad numbers.  A skidpad number is mostly just a comparison of the tires, the spring/bar rates, and the vehicle weight. 

A modern Corvette has tires & suspension just as good as the XV Chally, but the 'Vette also carries MUCH less weight and has better downforce & aero.  Big surprise that the 'Vette is still faster.

The major-league geometry changes & stiffening work in something like the XV setup are gonna lend an amount of predictability that will never be equaled with the stock setup.  The stock Mopar front end is amazingly good for the '60s and still damn respectable now, but there's some room for improvement.  IMHO the driver will be more willing/able to push it closer to the edge right away with an XV-type setup, even if the "edge" itself isn't significantly improved.    IMHO it's gonna be a big real-world improvement even if the numbers gains are small. 



Are the XV setup's gains worth all that money?  Well, that's a different question. 

   

[NYCMille]

All the points that are brought up are good ones. My thinking is this... I am probably one of few, if not the only person on DC.com that actually takes their Charger on a road courses - done 5 track days this year. I believe that the majority of the owners of Mopars will never track their cars but do want components to make their cars go, stop and handle better then when new. Take these considerations and then factor in the money. The XV Chally is $176k - that is a BIG # - now, is that a justifible #? I'm really not sure - when XV first came on the seen I was all gung-ho for their stuff but I simply can't afford it. So, I went with what is available and then REALLY spent the time dialing it in to get it to perform properly. What I found is that I can basically get about 90% or more of the performance for less than half the price. BUT I total agree with the fact if you want something that is SUPER TRICK and get the best WOW factor in package deal than XV would be the way to go for those who can swing that kind of coin.

I think I am at the point right now where if I were to run more XV stuff I would opt. for their level 1 package as I feel that is a great kit and worth the money for the results that would be obtained. The level II - honestly, for those #s, I just can't see it. What I would REALLY like to see are identical cars set-up with Level I and Level II and see what #'s are... I have a feeling the gap wouldn't be too big.

[Silver R/T]

or you can just buy a Z06 for a fraction of the price that will outhandle pretty much anything on the street.

[70charger_boy]

All the points that are brought up are good ones. My thinking is this... I am probably one of few, if not the only person on DC.com that actually takes their Charger on a road courses - done 5 track days this year. I believe that the majority of the owners of Mopars will never track their cars but do want components to make their cars go, stop and handle better then when new. Take these considerations and then factor in the money. The XV Chally is $176k - that is a BIG # - now, is that a justifible #? I'm really not sure - when XV first came on the seen I was all gung-ho for their stuff but I simply can't afford it. So, I went with what is available and then REALLY spent the time dialing it in to get it to perform properly. What I found is that I can basically get about 90% or more of the performance for less than half the price. BUT I total agree with the fact if you want something that is SUPER TRICK and get the best WOW factor in package deal than XV would be the way to go for those who can swing that kind of coin.

I think I am at the point right now where if I were to run more XV stuff I would opt. for their level 1 package as I feel that is a great kit and worth the money for the results that would be obtained. The level II - honestly, for those #s, I just can't see it. What I would REALLY like to see are identical cars set-up with Level I and Level II and see what #'s are... I have a feeling the gap wouldn't be too big.

You also forgot to mention that you are the only one that beat a lambo in a slolum with your 39 yr old car.  Or was it a ferrari?  Anyway, hats off to you Superstar

[Rolling_Thunder]

Mike I have to agree with you - No worries though - IF my charger ever gets back on the road I am most definately taking it out to some tracks around here...      I added everything up...     I got quoted $200,000 for an XV 68 Charger with their level II package, 6.1L hemi, and basicly stock interior...         when my charger is done - I am looking at right around $30,000 including the car price itself...   If my car performs even close to the XV cars I would say I am WAY ahead of the game...      my paint might not be as nice but I look at it this way...     I'm buildiung my car to drive...     rock chips will happen...     door dings in parking lots...        I am not knocking XV as a company - I plan on using some of their chassis stiffening parts, but I can't just come up with $200,000 for a charger...      especially at 21 years old.   

[Mike DC]

     
For $200,000 you could get that new Corvette, and then go get four or five nice Chargers along with it.

I'd never dump that much into one single car.  I don't care if it can go to the moon and back. 


   
 

[suntech]

Even if i could swing that kind of coin, i would not buy a ready done car. simply because my hobby is to build a car like i want it. I will use the level II front suspention, their brakes, and some other parts.
I want to build something most of the geople will call a "high end" ride, but i will build it myself, and not just buy it.
Ok, the parts alone will be a fortune, but i have been waiting for this for like 20 some years, so i decided  f**k it!!! I will spend what i need to spend, and so be!!

[ChargerRT440]

comparable suspension kit:
https://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16144&cat=255&page=1
couple thousand less for something compareable I guess theres is always the you get what you pay for saying but people seem to really enjoy these Bill(the owner) also has special aftermarket rear suspension kits that arn't on the site.

[Rolling_Thunder]

comparable suspension kit:
https://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16144&cat=255&page=1
couple thousand less for something compareable I guess theres is always the you get what you pay for saying but people seem to really enjoy these Bill(the owner) also has special aftermarket rear suspension kits that arn't on the site.

exactly...    and thinking about it - I dont see how RMS can't be severe competition with XV - price difference aside - Bill needs to get something on a skidpad that shows his product is better/worse than the XV set up...     I wouldn't be suprised if it was comparable

[Mike DC]

 
If you took out all the body roll with stiff-MoFo springs, then you could probably get a STOCK Mopar suspension to do similiar skidpad numbers to either one of those kits.  Top-level suspension work has a lot more to it than skidpad numbers.



Not trying to dis the AlterKtion kit though.  Seems like some pretty good stuff for the amount of money & chop-work involved. 

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'm almost sure sure a stock style suspension can beat those numbers...      I understand skidpads are not the end all be all of performance suspensions - but for a company that markets their products as such...       lets the just I was expecting better (not knocking either product line) but there was just such a hype with the XV stuff I thought it would have produced better numbers -   

[chargerman68]

 

[Blakcharger440]

Does anyone know if anybody at all has purchased an XV car??? Or even purchased their Level 1 suspension???

[ChargerRT440]

lol I know e'berg loves the xv suspensions. but then again as far as I'm concerned e'berg is an idiot. but thats my opinion yours may differ. He bashes the RMS stuff which is almost the exact same and loves the XV stuff.

[Rolling_Thunder]

lol I know e'berg loves the xv suspensions. but then again as far as I'm concerned e'berg is an idiot. but thats my opinion yours may differ. He bashes the RMS stuff which is almost the exact same and loves the XV stuff.

not exactly the same thing - i think a RMS and XV shoot out is called for to settle such debates     

[Ghoste]

And we should all get a turn beating the snot out of... err, I mean subjectively analyzing in a real world fashion, both cars. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

And we should all get a turn beating the snot out of... err, I mean subjectively analyzing in a real world fashion, both cars. 

nah - bad idea...     I have a habit of finding every weak point of a car...     my boss's GTX was a universal joint...       boss's Superbird was a connecting rod....      my charger was a tire...           customer's cars span from electrical issues to shoddy built transmissions...   

Rest assured...       if the car CAN be broken - I'm the one who can do it   

[69bronzeT5]

I think some parts are overpriced but others seem fair

[Mike DC]

I'd be all for a RMS/XV shootout. 

But it's way too easy to stack the deck on something like this. 
I'd only take the results seriously under a couple of conditions: 


--  It has to be a real-world road course or something; not just skidpad digits.  Preferably a course with some actual bumps & unpredictable turns. 

--  The wheel/tire combos had better be completely identical.  The two vehicles' curb weights, HP, and amount of other racing mods have to all be pretty darn close. 

--  Same driver, same day, and same amount of experience in each setup (preferably none at all beforehand).

   

[RallyeMike]

My thinking is this... I am probably one of few, if not the only person on DC.com that actually takes their Charger on a road courses

It's Few, damnit ! 

It has to be a real-world road course or something; not just skidpad digits.  Preferably a course with some actual bumps & unpredictable turns. 

Real, real world: Big Gulp in the left hand, girlfriend talking non-stop relationship stuff, and they have to keep the CD player from skipping.