383 build...

[Hot_Rodder]

All right, despite all the questions that I've asked, I've decided to go ahead and go with the 383 that's in the car. But, I do want to do a stroker motor. If no one has any really bad things to say about 440 Source, then I'm concidering using one of there stroker kits. I've heard some people talk about them in a not so nice way, but I'd like feedback from people who either knows of someone who's used/using there stroker kits, or are either using or used there kit's also. I'm concidering there 438 c.i.d. kit, but will concider going bigger. Now the drawback. This is a 1964 block, which I've been told that the 383 in '64, the heads that were used, had 4 valve cover hold down bolts, is this true? I ask b/c the heads on it now have 6, 4 on the bottom, and 2 on the top... The bolts are gone, and it has studs in it. Also, the intake is far from factory, being an Edelbrock TM6 with an rpm range of 3000 - 7500 rpm . Like I said, far from factory.... Also, with a 750 cfm Holley 3310, I tied the secondary linkage so the secondaries open the same time/amount as the primaries, and the motor seems like it can't get enough of it, and it's got a nice top end ramp speed, must be that short stroke.... Anyway, it will barely run at 1/8th throttle, extremely choppy, and at 1/4 throttle it's rough, choppy.... Half throttle it's fairly smooth, anything past that, and well.... . I could be wrong, but I think it's got a fairly big cam in it.... What size, I dun know . Also, being that it was made in '64, and this other apparent stuff was done,I don't know if it's been bored over any or not. . And the previous owner just aint on help. I don't think he remembers how it ran, or even if it ever ran while he had it, because he said it had smooth idle, ect ect ect, and he doesn't know anything about the motor, as far as work, and he didn't know anything about the intake, until I told him. He said he bought the car to fix it up, and this is about how it was when he got it.... . Anyway, the 383, assuming stock bore, with a 440 Source stroker kit, would like to really move this car, '72 Charger SE with power brakes, A/C will be on the car (triple black), power steering, TTI headers and exhaust with X pipe will be used, and auto tran's (been given a rebuild price of $750 for everything including pull, rebuild, install, and warranty, a little bit better than stock). I am looking for somewhere, but no less than, 500 horse power, 500 ft. lbs. of torque. This car will be street only. I'm not certain, but the rear axle should be 3.55 SG, it is an 8 3/4" rear axle though. So, bring on the questions, and lets see what I can get myself into here, lol. I would prefer to keep it a hydraulic cam for maintenance reasons. I am planning on running a Demon carb, something like this: http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_754092_-1_10271. Obviously they offer them up to an 850 cfm, and anyone familiar with them, should know what they list, is pretty much what they flow, unlike some others.... I had a speed demon 750 on my R/T with 440 (I no longer have the car ) and liked it quite a bit, no problems out of it, unlike the 3310.... I will concider aluminum heads, thought about the 440 Source heads that are supposed to be coming out, 2008 . But, if I can, I'd rather stick with the cast iron heads. The exhaust will probably be this:
headers: http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/man38178prim.html 3" collector
pipes: http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/t3sytohewimu1.html
mufflers: Probably Dynomax Ultra Flow, case design undecided right now
Tips: http://www.ttiexhaust.com/Tips.htm#slo part #TIP30-SLRED
Not a bad exhuast, right? Also, have these people: http://www.airborncoatings.com/index3.html ceramic coat the whole system. Should last for a long time that way, and perform better too. If I'm gonna sink that kind of $$$$ into the TTI stuff, it's all gonna be able to last for quite some time, this way, it should.

Anyway, bring on the q's, and I'll try and answer it all.

[Runner]

you will not get 500 hp from a 750 dollar rebiuld, infact i cant imagine that being anything but a rering with no head work.  heck, even a rering with them pulling it and installing it for 750 dollars is cheap.

   

    ive been thinking about my next engine a little bit, it eill be biult around a 383 block sence i have a freshly bored 383 block sitting here. i have a good set of 906 heads sitting on the shelf. i will use a torker intake sence i have one but might opt for the rpm intake thats on the 383 in my satellite now. the old motor is going in my wifes pink satellite to replace the 318. what ive been thinking about is a custom piston for a .030 bored 383 and biulding the motor with a 470 crank and rod kit for a 400 block from 440 source.  this would make for a 450 ci motor.not sure on the cam, probably whatever porter racing heads sugested for a daily driven 3.23 geared 4 speed 68 satellite. crane iron adjustable rockers.   around 9.5-1 cr. id trhink it would be simple and fun.   if this even happens it would be a couple years down the road.   

[histoy]

I believe that '63 was the last year that 4 bolts were used to secure the valve covers on big block engines.

[Hot_Rodder]

The guy I talked to at the transmission shop that I talked to, said that the transmission should be able to handle that kind of power, so, it's there warranty if it breaks up..... Also, obviously you couldn't mean build a motor for $750, stroker kit alone through 440 Source is around $1650 fully balanced and all. Then there's the rest of the stuff. BTW, I've already got a Milodon street/strip low profile oil pan, and a 1/2" pickup, next will be the high volume oil pump and hardened shaft and such.

[Runner]

  yup i screwed up reading your post.   sorry....

[Hot_Rodder]

  yup i screwed up reading your post.   sorry....

It's cool. $750 I figure would rebuild the 383, but would be reusing a lot of stuff. 500/500 power would be very hard, if not impossible, to reach for that amount.

[Hot_Rodder]

Well, thanks to a friend, I've made up my mind, and get a crate motor. No guess work, ect. Here's the link, what you all think?
http://speedomotive.com/ps-225-62-mopar-383cid-to-430cid-street-master-stroker-engine.aspx

[Hot_Rodder]

Any comments at all?

[Nacho-RT74]

I believe that '63 was the last year that 4 bolts were used to secure the valve covers on big block engines.

66 as far I know ( I can be wrong thought )

[Hot_Rodder]

How about I pull the covers, and see what the casting # is? I got a few minutes today, so I guess I'll check 'em out and see what's what.

[Nacho-RT74]

How about I pull the covers, and see what the casting # is? I got a few minutes today, so I guess I'll check 'em out and see what's what.

here is a list I saved from the old board, but I think is not accurate since states 452 heads for 76 and laters engines... my car is 74 with 452s and almost all 73 400s I have found down here are with 452 too

[chargerman68]

get a hold of firefighter3931 he has alot of knowledge about motors great help with mine

[Hot_Rodder]

Firefighter knows his stuff, and so does Chryco. I pulled the valve cover off, and yes, it really didn't want to come off at all, but I did get the cover off the driver side... Anyway, I can't see any casting numbers, but here's two pic's of what it looks like right now.... I'm going back out there to pull the rockers off as soon as I get these loaded up.

[Nacho-RT74]

wooops, those rockers have missed the spacers between them

[chargerman68]

wooops, those rockers have missed the spacers between them

\

[supserdave]

$3695 for the short block isn't a bad price. Can you pick the cam to use in it?

[Hot_Rodder]

As for the crate motor, I plan on just buying the "turn key motor" so that way there's no other work needing to be done other than put it in, make some connections, ect... Besides, it's got the 500/500 mark that I want, infact 500/530... Good enough, so why mess with it? Besides, I'm not building a race car, just a nice street cruiser, with an occasional show off . Anyway, here's some pic's after I removed the rocker assembly. Also, this is the first time that I've pulled anything on this motor off, so, the rocker assembly isn't my fault, but does add to the potential that the heads aint factory. The number looks like a 516.

73.5 cc head, from '64 until sometime by the list above, with a 2.08 intake valve and a 1.60 exhuast valve. So.... Maybe these are the original heads, but someone had to have messed with it some point in time.

[TUFCAT]

I noticed this engine has the 516 heads. Many people have gone on record as saying the 915 head (67 440) is the best closed chamber head from this era. My 1967 383HP block has the 516 heads and I was going to use them, but have the exhaust vales enlarged. Is there any reason for me to consider 915 heads instead of the 516's I already have?   

[71 B5383]

I think the difference,besides the valve sizes, is going to be in the port itself.It(915's) may flow a little more but I think the 516's exhaust opened up to the 1.74 will be just fine for you.Have them blend into the port a little bit when putting the bigger valve in.You are not building an all out race car as you said,so you'll not notice the slight difference.As for NACHO and his heads,the 452's were for trucks and motorhomes75-76 and up I believe,that is always where I got mine off of.The 346's ran from 70 or 71 til 73 or 74.All open chamber low compression smog heads!Boat anchors unless your building a stroker or changing pistons.

[aifilaw]

have them size check it and tell you how far into the head they are going to drill out the exhaust valves... my last set hit the water jacket... not because the machine shop were idiots... but because they didn't check first and the water jackets had rusted deeper... thusly they barely hit the jacket when they opened up the valves.

[TUFCAT]

I would probably only go up to the 1968 exhaust valve size.  Since I won't be running headers, it won't make much sense to go bigger thant that right?

[RD]

I think the difference,besides the valve sizes, is going to be in the port itself.It(915's) may flow a little more but I think the 516's exhaust opened up to the 1.74 will be just fine for you.Have them blend into the port a little bit when putting the bigger valve in.You are not building an all out race car as you said,so you'll not notice the slight difference.As for NACHO and his heads,the 452's were for trucks and motorhomes75-76 and up I believe,that is always where I got mine off of.The 346's ran from 70 or 71 til 73 or 74.All open chamber low compression smog heads!Boat anchors unless your building a stroker or changing pistons.

smog heads? ha... when fully ported as done by mopar muscle and compared against the 906, 452, and 915 fully ported, the 346 outflowed all of them.   there is no such thing as a smog bb head.  346's came w/semi-hardened valve seats to handle the unleaded fuel, but that is the only difference between them and about any other open chambered head in stock form. (there is a website that shows the differences with charts, I am at work, hence I do not have the link, maybe someone can help).

452's were found on all bb motors from 75 on, unless it was a motorhome or industrial (213) motor.  And in some cases on industrials too, it just mattered what the factory had on hand at the time.

if you claim 346's as boat anchors, then I guess 906's and 452's are boat anchors also.

[Nacho-RT74]

I'm still acclaiming, as far I know my car came with 452 heads and is 74... I have three pairs of 452s, one of them the original from factory ones

[chargerman68]

 

[firefighter3931]

[my car is 74 with 452s and almost all 73 400s I have found down here are with 452 too

The "correct" 73-74 casting is a 346. If yours has 452 castings then they're not original to that engine.

As for the 516 heads ; they are very poor flowing, particularly on the exhaust side. The only reason i see to use them would be to bump up the compression on a late model smog motor which typically were 8:1 with the open chamber heads. Even at that i wouldn't be looking for any big power gains with the 516's....they just don't flow very well without extensive porting. 



Ron

[TUFCAT]

Ron, the 915's flow better - but I already have the 516 heads on my factory 383 HP engine. Should I be looking for 915 heads, and sell mine - - or, just spend the extra money to have these 516 heads professionally ported and polished.  From a economic point of view, which is better..... the stock 915 head or professionally ported 516's that I already have zero money in.??

[aifilaw]

you will spend the same money porting out the 516's and increasing the ex. port size to 1.81 as you will on a brand new set of aluminum edelbrock heads, and you will probably get 10+ hp across the powerband with the edelbrocks.

btw, I only opened up the exhaust ports on that set of 516's I mentioned to 1.74... and they hit the water jacket. I had a better set a couple years before I opened up to 1.81 and they didn't hit (noticeably) until after I put them on, and drove on them, then coolant out the exhaust big time... found out pressing lightly with a screwdriver showed a gaping hole into the water jacket because the metal was so thin from corrosion and rust.
These are 30+ year old iron heads guys, don't expect magic out of them too often

[TUFCAT]

Do the aluminum heads look stock on the engine in you paint them to match? Also, can you use stock valve covers? any other issues with installing these on a stock set up?

Does anyone know if the 915 castings have more meat?

[aifilaw]

piston selection isn't as horrible as you make it out to be on the 383...
there's a lot of pistons out there, and if you realize that a piston is a piston based on the bore and side-skirts, weight, and height, you will realize that a lot of other pistons that have the words "383" nowhere associated with them, work well in this block.
btw, custom pistons aren't that expensive.

[RD]

TUFCAT, here is a scenario on 516 heads

I ran 12.17 in the quarter in my 3900lb 71 charger with 516 heads that had 2.14/1.81 valves, no port or polish.  If they are capable of that, then what more do you want?

granted, I could have probably ran faster with aluminum heads, but I did not have them at that time.

[TUFCAT]

RD - that's awesome. Did you have a problem enlarging the exhaust valves?  Should I even bother with that? I 'm not using headers and wondering how much enlarging the exh valves will actually help with a stock 383 magnum cam?

[RD]

RD - that's awesome. Did you have a problem enlarging the exhaust valves?  Should I even bother with that? I 'm not using headers and wondering how much enlarging the exh valves will actually help with a stock 383 magnum cam?

any reputable machine shop can put in larger valves, but the first question is this... do you plan to drag race it or just street drive it?

[TUFCAT]

Street driving (drag race a few times).  I want it to look stock. It will have a stock 383-400 magnum cam (maybe just a wee bit bigger if it helps), 3.23 rear, and a 2k convertor.  I''ll have manifolds. I will also have the engine balanced. That's about it, othrwise, a pretty much stock rebuild. I want to make as many "unnoticeable" performance improvements as I can.,,,,,without getting too crazy with the expense like the F.A.S.T guys do. I want it to look stock, but surprise a few people with its performance at the same time.

[firefighter3931]

Ron, the 915's flow better - but I already have the 516 heads on my factory 383 HP engine. Should I be looking for 915 heads, and sell mine - - or, just spend the extra money to have these 516 heads professionally ported and polished.  From a economic point of view, which is better..... the stock 915 head or professionally ported 516's that I already have zero money in.??

Unless you're looking for an all out street/strip car the 516's will work OK on a 383. If you were building a 440 i would recommend a better head.

I would upsize to the 1.74 exhaust valve (use stainless) and have the machinist do a throat cut on the bowl whiles he's cutting the new seats for the larger valves. Then you simply blend the cut into the bowl with a die grinder and call it good. The 2.08 intake valves are fine.....just have a good valvejob done and the same throatcut/blend. 



Ron

[RD]

Ron, the 915's flow better - but I already have the 516 heads on my factory 383 HP engine. Should I be looking for 915 heads, and sell mine - - or, just spend the extra money to have these 516 heads professionally ported and polished.  From a economic point of view, which is better..... the stock 915 head or professionally ported 516's that I already have zero money in.??

Unless you're looking for an all out street/strip car the 516's will work OK on a 383. If you were building a 440 i would recommend a better head.

I would upsize to the 1.74 exhaust valve (use stainless) and have the machinist do a throat cut on the bowl whiles he's cutting the new seats for the larger valves. Then you simply blend the cut into the bowl with a die grinder and call it good. The 2.08 intake valves are fine.....just have a good valvejob done and the same throatcut/blend. 



Ron

[TUFCAT]

Thanks Guys!!! I appreciate your help and experience.  Your opinions match exactly what I was told by another trusted engine builder.....stick with the 516's, do some mild head work, add larger exh valves to match the 1968 Magnum size.... then call it done.  I don't need the car to run like a raped ape - - just an ape that's been tickled a bit   

I'm also concerned about problems with water jacket leaks after enlarging the exhaust valves from reading a previous post by aifilaw who ran into trouble.....  RD, Firefighter, or anybody else  - - should I really be worried about that? - - or is that an isolated issue?

[TUFCAT]

 

I'm also concerned about problems with water jacket leaks after enlarging the exhaust valves (after reading a previous post by aifilaw) who ran into trouble.....  RD, Firefighter, or anybody else  - - should I really be worried about that? - - or is that an isolated issue? 

[Hot_Rodder]

  I don't know what to tell you man. I pretty much have decided to go with a big block turn key crate motor. Will use a 383 block, and has aluminum heads all ready bolted on, and as for power, it's got enough to move this heavy '72 Charger on down the road, so...