Re: Restoration of my B5 Blue 4Spd Charger 500... Blue Thunder debuts...Finally!

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Happy Birthday and continued sucess on its rebirth

Go ahead and tell your car Happy Birthday from Danny. I think it will know who I am. 

Looking forward to seeing some more progress pictures.

great news  HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY 

Go ahead and tell your car Happy Birthday from Danny. I think it will know who I am. 

            Now that was funny...   

Happy Birthday to BT! 

Thanks guys... things seem to really be falling into place now, but gathering the funds to finish the project any time soon is a challenge.  Selling E-Body parts & US Savings Bonds...

BTW Danny, I called old Blue to pass on your Happy B-Day wishes... but she said "Darn, the stalker found me!" & hung up... 

[moparstuart]

she hung up  DANNY the stalker 

[69_500]

Darn it, and here I was thinking that I had made those 3 trips to Texas to check her out unnoticed. Guess I'm not as sneaky as I think huh. 

[charger500440]

Allen,

I am a newbie to this site, just stumbling across it last week. It took awhile but I poured through this thread with great interest as a C500 owner myself. My car too is awaiting full restoration and I took a ton away from here. I just wanted to thank you for the time and effort it took you to share your experiences. Extremely helpful. I am sorry for your troubles as well. I've been involved in the auto collision business for over 11 years now, so I can't say  I am surprised these types of things happen. I know several very good body shop owners, large and small shops here in CT. Most shops just do not want to get involved in restoration work and when they do, they regret it and often rush through it.
-
I can't say that I know any resto shops, I don't but I know what the pressures are on owners to make money. It's not easy at $45 to $60 per hour with all the costs involved. For me and my Chargers, this is not a problem because I could not afford them anyway. I have to do my own work. Being in the business just allows me to ask informed questions of informed techs. Either way, you will have one awesome car when done. Thank you again and please keep the updates coming...

Mike

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

Glad that things are picking up for you again.  Has the old shop offered ANY explanation for the missing paint/materials? 

No, but I have not pursued the issue with them.  I first discovered the light cans when the C500 was being picked up by Ken & Greg.  I asked about the very light feel (20% or so) of one of the B5 Blue gallon cans, and the shop owner picked it up and declared that there was at least a half-gallon left in the can...   ...with the tense feel of the situation, and Ken & Greg needing to get on the road back home, I dropped the subject... pursuing it would have been  

BTW, I called English Color today (one of the top suppliers of Automotive paints in Fort Worth) and asked about the cost of PPG DBC type base color in 1969 B5 Blue... I was told the price was $396.15 per gallon.  Applying an estimated discount of 15%, then doubling the dicounted price resulted in a total within about $10 of the amount that I was charged by the body shop...  Also, the empty can I was charged for also appears to be missing in action... wonder what it is being used for?!?...  

I believe that trying to discuss the incredible labor charges, missing materials, and other problems endured during this fiasco would be a complete waste of time.  He claims to be a man of faith... maybe he will discuss it with someone in the future... I just plan to accept it as a tough lesson in life and continue on.

Below is a portion of the final invoice showing the materials that I paid for...

Allen

[charger500440]

Allen,

Did you get the leftover clear coat, that is usually more $$$ than the base anyway?

Mike

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

I am a newbie to this site, just stumbling across it last week. It took awhile but I poured through this thread with great interest as a C500 owner myself. My car too is awaiting full restoration and I took a ton away from here. I just wanted to thank you for the time and effort it took you to share your experiences. Extremely helpful. I am sorry for your troubles as well. I've been involved in the auto collision business for over 11 years now, so I can't say  I am surprised these types of things happen. I know several very good body shop owners, large and small shops here in CT. Most shops just do not want to get involved in restoration work and when they do, they regret it and often rush through it.
-
I can't say that I know any resto shops, I don't but I know what the pressures are on owners to make money. It's not easy at $45 to $60 per hour with all the costs involved. For me and my Chargers, this is not a problem because I could not afford them anyway. I have to do my own work. Being in the business just allows me to ask informed questions of informed techs. Either way, you will have one awesome car when done. Thank you again and please keep the updates coming...

Mike

Thanks Mike!  And again welcome to the forum...

And there are always two sides to a business transaction, and I would certainly welcome a chance to openly air both sides at a local Mopar club meeting... but I doubt the body shop owner would want that opportunity.  I have the original written estimate, a stack of in-work invoices, and 2,000 pictures taken in the 51 weeks the Charger 500 was at the shop.

I have seen the other side too, where a car owner has unreasonable expectations of a restoration shop... and I have consistently tried to be fair and accomodating, often accepting mistakes and less than desired workmanship to reduce the rework requirement.  In this case it appears to have been interpreted as a sign I would accept anything...

Thanks again... and I am glad you like the thread and find it helpful, but sorry you had to endure the length!

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

Did you get the leftover clear coat, that is usually more $$$ than the base anyway?

Mike

From the invoice it appears much cheaper than the base coat (see attachment in earlier post).

After I picked up the base color gallon cans & reducer (?) can I stopped to asked the shop owner about the base color... after his reply I decided to drop the subject.  I will find out from the owner of the current shop more detailed information about leftover quantities...

Allen

[charger500440]

Allen,

The paint issue was interesting to me. I have worked on the insurance company end of the collision business for a long time, so I get the paint cost issue brought up to me a lot. The stuff is not cheap. However bases, unless they are reds or three-stage pearls, are usually not too bad cost-wise. And 2 gallons of base, reduced, should go a long way. The clear on the other hand is crazy money. Varying only slightly per manufacturer.
-
I was also a little surprised the shop was using PPG. Not one I would have chosen. For durability, I hear Sikkens is top notch. Especially their primers and clear coats. Can't beat them. I just had this talk a few days ago with a shop I know very well. Standox is another very popular supplier. They cater more to the production body shop business, less durable but easier to work with and a much better color matching system. Lastly, Glasurit has a great name in the business as well. PPG, a household name but much less popular. Keep in mind too that Dupont has gobbled up some of these companies in recent years.
-
The killer is that much of these materials have their roots as oil based products. The price of crude oil has dropped (with help from your Houston neighbors) but the costs associated with paints have not. Keep in mind too, the push towards water-born paints is well underway. This is already creating adhesion problems in the collision business, especially with plastic components. There's always something changing, for better or worse. I will check with a couple people on your bill, see what they think...

Mike

[watt340]

xs29J8bullit, what an incredible heartbreaker to read about end result of the restoration shop work. There is no excuse for that large of an overage.
Since you have invoices from the beginning showing what the cost should be, I would use those to your advantage and try to reclaim some of your money.
I hate to admit that the shop I was dealing with was screwing over many people for many thousands of dollars, expensive parts lost, cars missing. Luckily I had taken him to small claims court to remedy my situation before he skipped town, never to be seen again.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

The paint issue was interesting to me. I have worked on the insurance company end of the collision business for a long time, so I get the paint cost issue brought up to me a lot. The stuff is not cheap. However bases, unless they are reds or three-stage pearls, are usually not too bad cost-wise. And 2 gallons of base, reduced, should go a long way. The clear on the other hand is crazy money. Varying only slightly per manufacturer.
-
I was also a little surprised the shop was using PPG. Not one I would have chosen. For durability, I hear Sikkens is top notch. Especially their primers and clear coats. Can't beat them. I just had this talk a few days ago with a shop I know very well. Standox is another very popular supplier. They cater more to the production body shop business, less durable but easier to work with and a much better color matching system. Lastly, Glasurit has a great name in the business as well. PPG, a household name but much less popular. Keep in mind too that Dupont has gobbled up some of these companies in recent years.
-
The killer is that much of these materials have their roots as oil based products. The price of crude oil has dropped (with help from your Houston neighbors) but the costs associated with paints have not. Keep in mind too, the push towards water-born paints is well underway. This is already creating adhesion problems in the collision business, especially with plastic components. There's always something changing, for better or worse. I will check with a couple people on your bill, see what they think...

Mike

Mike - I am not a subject expert by any means on paint brand quality, but believe PPG's top line product is a good quality product.  I ruled out cheaper sub-brand lines like Matrix even though  many people have had great luck with them.  Sikkens is a good product, and one of my vehicles was painted with it in the earlier 90s, and although it held up fairly well it did not seem superior to PPG IMO.  My `Cuda 440-6 was painted with Deltron Single Stage (non clear coat) about 24 years ago and has held up great.  Glasurit is probably the best product line available, but it is my my understanding that it takes special equipment and training to properly apply... maybe a paint expert will weigh in on the matter.  I thought it best to stick with a product line that the paint shop was well-practiced in using.

Looking forward to input on the prices that I was charged for the materials...

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

xs29J8bullit, what an incredible heartbreaker to read about end result of the restoration shop work. There is no excuse for that large of an overage.
Since you have invoices from the beginning showing what the cost should be, I would use those to your advantage and try to reclaim some of your money.
I hate to admit that the shop I was dealing with was screwing over many people for many thousands of dollars, expensive parts lost, cars missing. Luckily I had taken him to small claims court to remedy my situation before he skipped town, never to be seen again.

Hi watt340, welcome to the forum and this thread...

For the moment I have no plans to take the first body shop to court over the fiasco, but I am organizing the material that I have (estimate, invoices, photos, etc) in case they are needed in the future...  I am just grateful that the C500 unique parts (rear window plug, headlight adapters, etc) did not get "lost".  I have heard stories about much worst body shop disasters, but this is by far the worst financial transaction that I have ever endured...

Allen

[Charger-Bodie]

Allen,

The paint issue was interesting to me. I have worked on the insurance company end of the collision business for a long time, so I get the paint cost issue brought up to me a lot. The stuff is not cheap. However bases, unless they are reds or three-stage pearls, are usually not too bad cost-wise. And 2 gallons of base, reduced, should go a long way. The clear on the other hand is crazy money. Varying only slightly per manufacturer.
-
I was also a little surprised the shop was using PPG. Not one I would have chosen. For durability, I hear Sikkens is top notch. Especially their primers and clear coats. Can't beat them. I just had this talk a few days ago with a shop I know very well. Standox is another very popular supplier. They cater more to the production body shop business, less durable but easier to work with and a much better color matching system. Lastly, Glasurit has a great name in the business as well. PPG, a household name but much less popular. Keep in mind too that Dupont has gobbled up some of these companies in recent years.
-
The killer is that much of these materials have their roots as oil based products. The price of crude oil has dropped (with help from your Houston neighbors) but the costs associated with paints have not. Keep in mind too, the push towards water-born paints is well underway. This is already creating adhesion problems in the collision business, especially with plastic components. There's always something changing, for better or worse. I will check with a couple people on your bill, see what they think...

Mike

Mike - I am not a subject expert by any means on paint brand quality, but believe PPG's top line product is a good quality product.  I ruled out cheaper sub-brand lines like Matrix even though  many people have had great luck with them.  Sikkens is a good product, and one of my vehicles was painted with it in the earlier 90s, and although it held up fairly well it did not seem superior to PPG IMO.  My `Cuda 440-6 was painted with Deltron Single Stage (non clear coat) about 24 years ago and has held up great.  Glasurit is probably the best product line available, but it is my my understanding that it takes special equipment and training to properly apply... maybe a paint expert will weigh in on the matter.  I thought it best to stick with a product line that the paint shop was well-practiced in using.

Looking forward to input on the prices that I was charged for the materials...

Allen

Allen,

I cant vouch for Sikkens in the 90s, But I can tell you that right now apples to apples Sikkens is FAR Superior to PPG.

I was a PPG user for many many years, and have used Sikkens Autobase+ With Sikkens AutoClear3 For 3 years  now and unless thing changed drastically within the Companies ,I would NEVER go back!

I do agree with using the products that you re shop is used to though, Cause The technician can make a huge diff. in how the product performs too.

[watt340]

Thanks Allen. I'm sure glad your parts were returned. Believe me, it could have turned out like the situation in Indy. I have followed the story of your restoration since the beginning, very interesting. The photos of the window plug inside and out, and also removed from the car were pretty fascinating, thanks for sharing. It helps a new guy like me understand how the they were installed.

I've been a 1969 A12 Road Runner guy for a long time, but the Charger 500's are really getting my interest, something about these special package cars.  I'll just stop in from time to time, sit back and soak up as much information as possible. 

Dave

[69_500]

Hey Dave, what situation in Indy are  you refering to? I don't recall any big problems with a restoration shop here in Indy?

[watt340]

Danny, the small claims court judge said I can't get into specifics over the internet. You have a message.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

I have been tied up with a project at work for most of the last 3 weeks or so, but finally have some time to post on the thread.  I have been talking on a regular basis with the owner of the new body shop and everything seems to be going along very well! 

The software issue seems to finally be resolved, and I received the first four pictures tonight.  The body shop has inventoried the parts that were picked up with C500, and it appears some may not be related to the C500.  So far a corroded side marker bezel and hood latch seem out of place...  I will know more when additional pictures and an inventory list arrive.

Good progress is reported on the C500, and I will post more pictures when they arrive.

Allen

[LilRedDave]

At least they have everything good and labeled. Some progress will make the holidays a little better.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

I have received a few questions about the status of the C500 restoration, so I thought that I would update the thread...

I talked to the body shop owner yesterday, and there has not been a lot of progress since the middle of December.  Greg (the owner) has been tied up with regular body shop work since the holidays, but plans to get back on the C500 soon.  Hopefully the ice storm going on now doesn't result in a glut of regular "production" work and put my C500 on the back burner.

I don't mind a small delay now & then, and I am not working to a firm deadline.  I hope to have new pictures soon, but here are a few that I received during the holidays.  At the time the pictures were taken, the bodyshop was test fitting all of the external parts and adjusting the gaps on the various body panels...

I wil post new pictures when I receive them.

Allen

[69_500]

Allen I'll still take it even though it looks like a total basket case and headache. JK.

Car will be great looking once they get done with it. And then you will be giving me a ride around a track instead of having to ride in my rusty car.

[charger500440]

Allen,

Car is coming along nicely, no doubt about it. Love 500's and love B5. I did follow up with a couple of body shop owners with regard to the paint and material bill your "former" shop saddled you with. The consensus was that they marked up the material across the board. Probably 25-30% or so. The base coat price was the most excessive in their eyes. I know it's water under the bridge at this point anyway but I did mention I would check it out for you. The normal body shops out there are busy right now, especially here in the northeast. However, it will be spring soon and with the economy what it is I suspect it will slow down to a crawl like last year. Keep the updates coming...

Mike

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen I'll still take it even though it looks like a total basket case and headache. JK.

Car will be great looking once they get done with it. And then you will be giving me a ride around a track instead of having to ride in my rusty car.

Well Danny, you were the quickest draw this time with your kind offer to relieve me of my headache.  Second place goes to Contestant 2 who sent me a PM last night, and third to Contestant 3 and his email this afternoon...  No word yet from #4 or #5... oh wait, the phone is ringing...  J/K

You can certainly ride in the C500 went the day comes, even drive the darn thing!

I received three more pictures from Greg today showing work from several weeks ago.  The quarter panels are being welded on after completion of the final fit/gap check.  The dark smudges around the wheel openings and other edges of the quarter panels are from the tack welds.

I believe more recent pictures will arrive tomorrow showing the current status of the C500.  Thanks Greg!

See pictures attached below...  BTW, the C500 is off the cart and on a rotisserie.

Allen

[tan top]

looks good    been wondering how the C500 was going 
  looking forward to seeing more progress pictures ..........

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen,

Car is coming along nicely, no doubt about it. Love 500's and love B5. I did follow up with a couple of body shop owners with regard to the paint and material bill your "former" shop saddled you with. The consensus was that they marked up the material across the board. Probably 25-30% or so. The base coat price was the most excessive in their eyes. I know it's water under the bridge at this point anyway but I did mention I would check it out for you. The normal body shops out there are busy right now, especially here in the northeast. However, it will be spring soon and with the economy what it is I suspect it will slow down to a crawl like last year. Keep the updates coming...

Mike

Thanks Mike...  I believe mark-up on the base coat was more like 100%, based on a call the I made late last year to a popular auto paint supplier here in Fort Worth, English Color.  Their walk in off the street price was under $400 per gallon, and assuming a 15% body shop discount, then doubling the discounted price came within about $10 of the $1336 that I paid for the two gallons.  Then there is the matter of the "missing" base coat paint (1/2 gallon or so)... unless it took over three quarts to paint a couple of doors & hinges.   AND the original paint matching screw-up made by the body shop or the paint store, but paid for by ME!  Of about $1800 spent on base coat paint, about $450 worth remains, and all painted parts will be stripped and repainted (except light coating on inside of quarter panels).

Allen         <takes deep breath>  

[moparstuart]

Allen,

Car is coming along nicely, no doubt about it. Love 500's and love B5. I did follow up with a couple of body shop owners with regard to the paint and material bill your "former" shop saddled you with. The consensus was that they marked up the material across the board. Probably 25-30% or so. The base coat price was the most excessive in their eyes. I know it's water under the bridge at this point anyway but I did mention I would check it out for you. The normal body shops out there are busy right now, especially here in the northeast. However, it will be spring soon and with the economy what it is I suspect it will slow down to a crawl like last year. Keep the updates coming...

Mike

Thanks Mike...  I believe mark-up on the base coat was more like 100%, based on a call the I made late last year to a popular auto paint supplier here in Fort Worth, English Color.  Their walk in off the street price was under $400 per gallon, and assuming a 15% body shop discount, then doubling the discounted price came within about $10 of the $1336 that I paid for the two gallons.  Then there is the matter of the "missing" base coat paint (1/2 gallon or so)... unless it took over three quarts to paint a couple of doors & hinges.   AND the original paint matching screw-up made by the body shop or the paint store, but paid for by ME!  Of about $1880 spent on base coat paint, about $450 worth remains, and all painted parts will be stripped and repainted (except light coating on inside of quarter panels).

Allen         <takes deep breath>  

i would have tryed to be a contestant also allen but i'm broke, I want the daytona more anyway now that i have a 500