Re: Restoration of my B5 Blue 4Spd Charger 500... Blue Thunder debuts...Finally!

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Test fitting of the new AMD one-piece trunk floor has taken place with excellent results so far!    The trunk floor was fitted and temporarily attached with screws.  The finally check-out will have to wait until other repro parts like the rear valance & trunk floor extensions are available from AMD... at least a month or so.  Although I am anxious to get the parts, I don't mind waiting so AMD can make sure they parts are right...  I don't need another bottom feeder part like Goodmark Industries sent me!   

Some pictures of the trunk floor test fitting...

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

The used Charger wheelhousing has been installed in place of the Goodmark  POS repro... see pictures below.

Allen

[69_500]

I'll give you one last chance to part with the car Allen. 

Trunk floor does look very nice.

[Magnumcharger]

Wow! That's really looking great!
The only problem I have with it...is it makes me want to cut all the inferior sheetmetal (if you can call it that) off of my Charger!!

[PocketThunder]

WOW i've never seen the trunk floor installed from the top like that before.     You sure have some good body men working on that car. 

Paul
in St. Paul

[xs29j8Bullitt]

   You sure have some good body men working on that car. 

Paul
in St. Paul

I'm not sure how you meant that to be taken Paul... 

The drip-trough was completely cut through by Creative Industries, so with the quarter panels removed the drip-trough is two seperate pieces...   The part being bent to pivot the taillight panell down like a tail gate is only the rear valance which is totally rusted out and will be replaced when the AMD repro is available.   Pivoting the taillight panel back down to its correct location allows for a better test fitting of the quarter panels & trunk floor than if it was totally removed (which WILL occur later).  No parts have been cut or bent that will remain with the car...

Allen

[MM1R/T]

How is the fit between the inner wheel wells and the new trunk floor?

[PocketThunder]

   You sure have some good body men working on that car. 

Paul
in St. Paul

I'm not sure how you meant that to be taken Paul...  :shruggy:Allen

With compliment ofcourse!     

[xs29j8Bullitt]

   You sure have some good body men working on that car. 

Paul
in St. Paul

I'm not sure how you meant that to be taken Paul...    Allen

With compliment ofcourse!     

Thanks Paul, I was not sure you weren't thinking the body shop cut the drip trough and mangled some sheetmetal to get the one-piece trunk floor in place.  Admittedly an unconventional approach, but no harm in this case.  Definitely NOT recommended for cars with intact drip troughs & solid rear valances... removing the taillight panel, rear valance, & taillight panel braces is definitely the way to go... IMO

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

How is the fit between the inner wheel wells and the new trunk floor?

I was in a hurry and did not have a really close look at the fit & gaps, but everything I saw looked like it fit great!  The bodyman said that he had no problems with the test fit.  The biggest gap that I saw was maybe .060 to .080, but the parts were probably clamped or screwed together... I did not see any Goodmark style 1/2 inch mis-matches.  I was not present during the actual test installation, but only saw the final results.

I will try to get by again this week or early next week and have a better look and take more pictures if the trunk floor is still in place.

See the pictures below, one shows a small gap...

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

I'll give you one last chance to part with the car Allen. 

Promise? 

Trunk floor does look very nice.

Yes it does... so far!  If everything pans out like I expect that it will, I will be ordering AMD trunk floors for the "fleet"... funds permitting o'course!  BTW, a usually reliable source told me the Goodmark one piece trunk floors to be sold for Chargers will actually be the Road Runner based pieces requiring significant rework at the rear of the trunk floor to make them work.  For example, the flange apparently turns the opposite way on RRs...  of course Goodmark will probably just leave it off their "universal" B-Body floors.  Also was told the shape of the rear floor is different, requiring modification to install the taillight panel braces...  If true, pay the same or more for the Goodmark part, then pay the bodyman 100's of $$$s to beat it into submission... then experience the joy when you hear someone point it out at the first show you take the car to!

Just my opinion, but Goodmark Industries will never see a single red cent more of my money... much less a "thin dime"...

If Goodmark does put out a correct Charger trunk floor, I will gladly retract what I said above... but still won't buy anything from them!

Allen

[69_500]

Sorry to say but I lied, it won't be the last chance. Just was the last chance for that DATE. 

I'm glad to see that you haven't given up al hope on the car yet. I know if I was  then I might think of throwing in the towel. Which is why I'm afraid to actually start anything with my car just yet. I think I'll just drive it for another 5-10 years then go through the headaches of fixing everything that aggrivates me on the car.

[FJMG]

There sure is not much metal left to hold up the back of the car! I did not notice any support ahead of the rear wheelwells in the last few pics (probably hidden), a lot of unibody restos that I have seen have had the 1/4 panel/trunk/wheelwell replacement performed on some sort of support (frame jig?) like on Magnumchargers F8 500 assembly thread so that the body can be squared, plumbed and trued according to factory measurements (most bodyshops have these). Some "experts" have warned me that the doors, fenders, suspension alignment, etc. will not line up if not too carefull.

[Aero426]

There sure is not much metal left to hold up the back of the car! I did not notice any support ahead of the rear wheelwells in the last few pics (probably hidden), a lot of unibody restos that I have seen have had the 1/4 panel/trunk/wheelwell replacement performed on some sort of support (frame jig?) like on Magnumchargers F8 500 assembly thread so that the body can be squared, plumbed and trued according to factory measurements (most bodyshops have these). Some "experts" have warned me that the doors, fenders, suspension alignment, etc. will not line up if not too carefull.

I will start by saying there are many different ways to perform the repair and you have to rely on your restorer that he's been there before and knows exactly what he is doing.   

In a perfect world, the best way to do a car like this is on a dedicated bench and jigs, which in the industry we call "fixtures".   This was how the cars were originally built.  Each fixture locates a factory measuring location on the car and is a go / no go guage.  It's pretty much idiot proof.  Either it fits or it doesn't.      The car is supported at the four torque boxes,  and a pair of fixtures are placed at the front rails and another at the rear rails.    Thus length, width and height are all controlled.    The bad news is that rarely is this perfect scenario followed, mainly because the fixturing equipment to do this doesn't exist for our old cars.   It has to be custom made. 

Muscle Car Restorations uses a Blackhawk Dedicated Bench System which was the Cadillac of frame machines in the early 80's when the first front wheel drive unibodies came out.   Each car had it's own set of fixtures.     The bench and fixture concept for repairs ultimately died out when insurance companies refused to pay for the rentals and purchases of the fixtures.     Most of these dedicated fixture benches have now been scrapped.    A handful remain and smart restoration shops will scoop them up as essentially they can function as a surface plate.    They can anchor and hold the car.  And they can be used as a frame pull platform if necessary.    MCR uses this exact system.    What they did was take the old unibody fixtures, lets say off some 80's car, and cut and rewelded them to fit an undamaged B-body.    What they do is the cats meow.

Here is the car just after going down on the bench with the front fixtures shown.     The machined top surface of the transverse beams where the yellow fixtures bolt on is just like a surface plate. 

[Aero426]

When you start removing a lot of structure from the car, this is the only way to fly.    Everything is supported just like it's sitting on the ground.

[Aero426]

Look what they've done with the rear.   They have gone so far as to build a tubular cage to hold dimensions.    This costs big bucks, but you know it's going to be right.

[Aero426]

Here they are maintaining height on the rocker panel.   

As far as dimensions charts for these cars go, there is not a lot out there for the old cars.   The factory service manual data is pretty user unfriendly and the period aftermarket frame charts in the red books by Tru Way are very basic compared to what we do today in the business.   But it can be done without bench and fixtures.    Again, it is how most people do it.    Personally, for hanging major structure, before the final welds are done, if it is not on four wheels I'd still want the four torque boxes on stands, and the front or rear rails supported along the way.  I want it as close as possible to be sitting on the road.   Again, you have to trust in the frame man that he knows what he's doing.  A lot can be done seat of the pants and by experience.   

[PocketThunder]

Here they are maintaining height on the rocker panel.   

As far as dimensions charts for these cars go, there is not a lot out there for the old cars.   The factory service manual data is pretty user unfriendly and the period aftermarket frame charts in the red books by Tru Way are very basic compared to what we do today in the business.   But it can be done without bench and fixtures.    Again, it is how most people do it.    Personally, for hanging major structure, before the final welds are done, I'd still want the four torque boxes on stands, and the front or rear rails supported along the way.    Again, you have to trust in the frame man that he knows what he's doing.  A lot can be done seat of the pants and by experience.   

Wow, that must have been an A12 car?

[Aero426]

That's exactly what it is. 

[moparstuart]

That's exactly what it is. 

I have had two of my cars cut a-part that way ( could not aford the jig set up)  but they went back together just fine       best to do one half at a time though , we did the front half first then the rear

[xs29j8Bullitt]

I have had two of my cars cut a-part that way ( could not aford the jig set up)  but they went back together just fine       best to do one half at a time though , we did the front half first then the rear

That is the approach being used on my C500.  The floorboard section repairs were done when the quarter panel "picture frame" edges were still in place as well as the doors so the door jam gaps could be monitored for changes... no changes were seen.

Also, the quarter panel "picture frames" were left in place for the tranport to and back from the media blaster.  In addition, "sawhorses" were used to support the unibody while being transported on the trailer for media blasting.

The weakest point probably occured when the left wheelhousing had to be removed because of the Goodmark fiasco, but no movement was seen at the drip trough cut points made by Creative Industries during their conversion.

In the pictures below you can see the rear frames are in excellent condition and still have about 3 feet of attachment to the rear floorboard, and the factory tie-in to the rocker beams through the forward rear axle spring perch structure.  All of the primary structure seems to be in very good original condition, with only very minor rust pitting.

I estimate that the unibody weighs about 1,000 pounds... anyone have a measured weight for reference?  At that weight the primary unibody structure should not be at risk of taking a permanent set.  Some of the removed parts like the trunk floor were essentially not there due to extensive rust while the car was fully assembled, so the top half of the quarter panels is the only major load path removed.

Even though there should not be a structural problem... I still have some concerns. 

See pictures below...

Allen

[Nekid_a12]

Hey Allen
Good to see you Saturday despite the less than desirable circumstances. Thanks for telling me about this thread, cause I had no idea you were working on anything. I figured if anything you would be finishing up Billy Jean. Its looking really good. I was surprised at what you told me about the Goodmark pieces, especially after the way their hood fit on my Challenger. Guess they did one thing right and lost their minds after.

Regardless, I'm glad to see you're making real progress on the C500. Now if we could just get the "Good Doctor" working on something

T.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Hey Allen
Good to see you Saturday despite the less than desirable circumstances.

Yeah, mermorial services for good friends is a heck of a way to get together...

It sure is starting to happen a lot in the last few years...

Thanks for telling me about this thread, cause I had no idea you were working on anything. I figured if anything you would be finishing up Billy Jean. Its looking really good.

Regardless, I'm glad to see you're making real progress on the C500. Now if we could just get the "Good Doctor" working on something

Next thing you know I may finish something... NAH, who am I kidding!?!   

Billie Jean is on hold due to mis-placed parts... I need to spend more time in the shop...

Be careful you don't trigger a response from the "Good Doctor's" security service... 

I was surprised at what you told me about the Goodmark pieces, especially after the way their hood fit on my Challenger. Guess they did one thing right and lost their minds after.

I was very surprised also... especially since it had the "Authentic Restoration Parts" logo from MaMopar... gonna have to photoshop a "Authentic Bottom Feeder" logo for them... 

Allen

[69_500]

Alright now, fill the rest of us in. who is Billie Jean? Which car did you tag with that name?

[Nekid_a12]

Sorry Allen