Re: Restoration of my B5 Blue 4Spd Charger 500... Blue Thunder debuts...Finally!

[justin1987]

Being a conservative Engineer,

Allen

Engineer, eh?  Where did you graduate from and what type of engineering? 

Texas A&M University  - BS Aerospace Engineering - Class of 1977 

Currently working as a Senior Staff Aerospace Engineer, but looking forward to retirement... when I can afford it. 

Why do you ask? 

Allen

I'm in school for my BS in Mechanical Engineering, University of Missouri Rolla

I'm in school for my BS in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering at Oklahoma State University

[xs29j8Bullitt]

I'm in school for my BS in Mechanical Engineering, University of Missouri Rolla

I'm in school for my BS in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering at Oklahoma State University

Stay in college even if the going gets tough... make it a high priority... Mopars will still be around when you graduate!

Either Degree, BSAE or BSME will serve you well... The ME Degree will allow a bit more job openings.  The Aero Degree makes some companies shy away because they believe you will head to a higher paying position at an Aerospace Company if the opportunity arises.

The college degrees won't make your careers easy, but they WILL pay off in the long run... especially as you age (so I have been told  ).

Allen

[hemigeno]

So Allen,

Have they sent the chassis (or what's left of it) off to the media blaster yet?

I'm beginning to wonder if the shop you went with is actually a Chevy shop trying to do a Frame-Off restoration on a Mopar.   

[moparstuart]

So Allen,

Have they sent the chassis (or what's left of it) off to the media blaster yet?

I'm beginning to wonder if the shop you went with is actually a Chevy shop trying to do a Frame-Off restoration on a Mopar.   

   that was harsh !!!!!! 

[hemigeno]

So Allen,

Have they sent the chassis (or what's left of it) off to the media blaster yet?

I'm beginning to wonder if the shop you went with is actually a Chevy shop trying to do a Frame-Off restoration on a Mopar.   

   that was harsh !!!!!! 

Well there's no doubt they are being thorough - that's for sure.  Knowing Allen, he's of the "better safe than sorry" mindset like I am.  I sorta wish they had taken my car down to the same level they're doing with Allen's.  In the end I think it could result in getting more of the rust out in hard-to-reach areas than other less invasive approaches.

I think it's gonna be fantastic when it's done - and worth the universal    reaction at this stage.

[moparstuart]

So Allen,

Have they sent the chassis (or what's left of it) off to the media blaster yet?

I'm beginning to wonder if the shop you went with is actually a Chevy shop trying to do a Frame-Off restoration on a Mopar.   

   that was harsh !!!!!! 

Well there's no doubt they are being thorough - that's for sure.  Knowing Allen, he's of the "better safe than sorry" mindset like I am.  I sorta wish they had taken my car down to the same level they're doing with Allen's.  In the end I think it could result in getting more of the rust out in hard-to-reach areas than other less invasive approaches.

I think it's gonna be fantastic when it's done - and worth the universal    reaction at this stage.

   I have had shops who get cut happy , my personal opionion is replace as little as possible . But yes also make sure you get all the rust out.
  realisticly these cars will never again see bad weather for any extended period of time

[xs29j8Bullitt]

So Allen,

Have they sent the chassis (or what's left of it) off to the media blaster yet?

I'm beginning to wonder if the shop you went with is actually a Chevy shop trying to do a Frame-Off restoration on a Mopar.   

Wow... Thanks buddy...

For a "Chevy Shop" they don't seem too focused...

Today was kind of an off day at the shop, I only saw:

1969 Charger (under wraps, not sure what engine)
1969 440 Charger 500 (mine)
1969 383 Road Runner
1970 440 GTX (original)
1970 AAR Cuda (original)
1971 440-6 GTX (not certain its a V code, but believe it is)

...in addition to the 1955 Thunderbird & 194? ?? Pick-Up

I met one of his other customers today, not sure which of his Mopars he plans to bring next... might be his F8 1969 Charger 500 440 4 Speed or B5 1970 Superbird 440 4 Speed car.  Then there is the triple black 1970 Hemi Challenger R/T that I was told about today... seems like hard times at the "Chevy Shop".

that was harsh !!!!!! 

Kind of fits the way my week went though...    more on that in a few days...

I sorta wish they had taken my car down to the same level they're doing with Allen's.  In the end I think it could result in getting more of the rust out in hard-to-reach areas than other less invasive approaches.

I can talk to the owner of the "Chevy Shop"... maybe he's a "Have sawzall, will travel" sort of guy...  Of course if I start calling him "Chevy Joe" he might run me down with one of his cars:

1970 440 Charger R/T
196? Coronet
1970 `Cuda
19?? Duster
2006 Charger R/T
200? Cummins Ram
...or maybe his two classic Chevys or his Mustang

I have had shop who get cut happy , my personal opionion is replace as little as possible . But yes also make sure you get all the rust out.
  realisticly these cars will never again see bad weather for any extended period of time

Realistically you cannot be certain when it comes to small rust "bubbles"... they can have friends lurking unseen nearby.  I have two restored cars that have had small rust bubbles appear where not had been been before, but within a foot where small spots had been repaired.  With the small bubbles my C500 had around the rear wheel openings I had to make a choice:

1) Spot repair visible rust and see what happens (ostrich approach)
2) Cut out around the rear wheel openings & install patch panels, having seams visible inside the quarter panel where they could not be concealed due to lack of accessibility (original plan)
3) Bite the bullet, pay the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the CBD quarter panels, accept some risk, and hope it works as well as many say it will...

I am not certain that I made the right decision, but having gotten burned twice before, I know option 1 is not the best one.  One of the nicest looking Chargers that I looked at the Monster Mopar show had rust bubbles appearing like my two cars.  Also, I made the decision early on to share the complete story on the restoration... the good & the bad!

Now maybe nobody will want to buy my C500 (what's left of it)...

Allen

[69_500]

Oh come one now Allen, I will still want to buy it even if you stop the restoration right now, and just put it back in the barn. I'll take it as it. No need to further assembly or disassemble it, I want a 4 speed 500.


Hey you mentioned another 500 owner? A green one? why haven't you got him posting on here yet? I promise to not ask about buying his car within the first week. I'll wait for week 2. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Oh come one now Allen, I will still want to buy it even if you stop the restoration right now, and just put it back in the barn. I'll take it as it. No need to further assembly or disassemble it, I want a 4 speed 500.

I guess it would make a good parts car...   

Hey you mentioned another 500 owner? A green one? why haven't you got him posting on here yet? I promise to not ask about buying his car within the first week. I'll wait for week 2. 

I just met the guy today, but he believes we met in the 1980s when I ran the local Mopar club.  He has a LOT of Mopars, but like many of my friends has kept a low profile in the hobby for many years.  We breifly talked about "registering" the Aero cars and I told him that I am finally doing mine.  I hope he will eventually do so as well, but will respect his decision whatever it is...

Hey, I never got my 1 week grace period...

Allen

[The70RT]

Realistically you cannot be certain when it comes to small rust "bubbles"... they can have friends lurking unseen nearby.  I have two restored cars that have had small rust bubbles appear where not had been been before, but within a foot where small spots had been repaired.  With the small bubbles my C500 had around the rear wheel openings I had to make a choice:


Allen

You know you did the right thing Allen. My quarter looked great on my charger with just some bubbles around the lower corners of the wheel well. I climbed in the trunk with a light and seen debris on the other upper parts of the wheel well and blew it off with air and seen some surface rust that was half way through. So I had to replace the whole quarter after I seen that. Also someone years ago drilled lots of holes down the center line for like 2 ft. to remove a dent.

[69_500]

Your 1 week grace period was taken up when I chatted to you a few times over on moparts, about 2 years ago. That was in the long drawn out "Vintage Photo" thread.

Now its game one. Feel free to make an offer on my car if you want. Just be aware that I want your worse. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

You know you did the right thing Allen. My quarter looked great on my charger with just some bubbles around the lower corners of the wheel well. I climbed in the trunk with a light and seen debris on the other upper parts of the wheel well and blew it off with air and seen some surface rust that was half way through. So I had to replace the whole quarter after I seen that. Also someone years ago drilled lots of holes down the center line for like 2 ft. to remove a dent.

Thanks, I still believe that I did... still, seeing the quarter-less C500 is a bit un-nerving.  I won't feel at ease until the new quarters are installed with no trace of the removal... just hoping it all goes well.  We are using the "patch panel" approach on the front floorboards, I delivered the parts to the Chevy Shop today.

Also, there were some additional spots found after removal of the quarter panels...  I am thinking about seeing what the cost of some type of "borescope" is...  maybe my friend in the medical equipment business can get me a cheap used colo... never mind!     

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Your 1 week grace period was taken up when I chatted to you a few times over on moparts, about 2 years ago. That was in the long drawn out "Vintage Photo" thread.

Now its game one. Feel free to make an offer on my car if you want. Just be aware that I want your worse. 

Thats right... I forgot to include the Moparts thread.  Its a shame most of the picture links on that thread are dead... that was a lot of fun!

Allen

[hemigeno]

                     

I delivered the parts to the Chevy Shop today.

Allen, Sorry bud - I wasn't trying to make what sounds like a lousy week any worse for you.  I was just wondering what the latest update was, and couldn't resist having a little fun.  I know firsthand how un-nerving it can be to see a pile of sheetmetal stacked off to the side, and I'm sure you'll be glad it went that way in the end.

[69_500]

So be hoenst here which is more nerve racking. Having the car at the shop going through the stages of restoration, or begingin the search for where to do the work, or begining to start looking for he parts to eventually restore the car, or having just bought the car and figuring out that you will soon need to go through everything?

Just wondering what you guys think. I haven't even thought about where I'd get my car done, if I ever do. I have started accumulating parts for it, but then again I was buying parts for a Charger years before I had this one. And every part I was buying was for 1 of 2 cars in mind, a 500 or a Daytona.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Most of the last 10 days has been taken up by efforts to match the factory EB5 Bright Blue Metallic paint.  Starting with a PPG EB5 formula mix batch done for a 1970 GTX being painted at the moment the color was compared to the best original paint available, the windshield mounting area and a polished area on the front valance that was not badly weathered.  Comparing a test panel to these areas in shop light and outside in cloudy day natural light, the match was good over-all, but looked a shade too light.

The look of EB5 tends to change dramatically with lighting conditions.  It was decided to take the valance panel to the paint supplier as a guide to darken the PPG formula mix.  The techs at the paint supplier instead recommended that we rely on their computer driven optical scanning equipment to get an "exact" match.  The unfortunate decision was made to go with their recommendation... and they missed badly!

The "match" they came up with has a decidedly gray tint to it, kind of a "slate" blue with metalflake...      NOW, the paint supplier will not take the paint back... so I am stuck with $600+ worth of base paint that shares only one ingredient with the EB5 formula.  The other ingredients, including the metalflake are different...  They have offered to adjust the paint to the best possible match, but because they are not allowed to spray test panels (EPA rules) this would require many trips back & forth to spray test panels.

After that disaster, more comparison of test panels & GTX components to the original paint areas on the C500 and to 1969 & 1970 paint "sample" cards from dealer trim selector books.  Finally, the sky cleared and a comparison in bright sunlight was made, with the match being even better than in shop light or cloudy day natural light.  There is still a "1/2" shade difference, but this is probably the best possible because of the completely different paint systems used today.

Below are some pictures:
- Top two in bright sunlight... notice how the original quarter panel cap paint look changes with light angle
- Third picture in shade
- Fourth picture shows the effect of light angle on the look of EB5 Blue on the GTX tail panel

Overall, not a good week... fire-drill at work including a 13 hour day... followed by 3-4 hours per day trying to get the paint match & parts for the C500.

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

A few more pictures... the pictures don't capture the color differnces well though, especially the difference of the custom mix.

1)  PPG formula mix compared to windshield mounting area
2)  "Team B5" consultants called in to help... 
3)  Dealer trim selector books (1969,1970,1971) & painted samples of EB5 & GB5 (for reference)
4)  Six quarts of custom mis-match paint paint that I am stuck with... (in two 1 gallon cans)

I plan to have the paint supplier take a shot at improving the look of the custom batch to make it sellable on Craigslist.  The cost of 2 gallons of the PPG formula mix will be about $1336...    I decided to add 2 quarts for future disasters... 

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

                     

I delivered the parts to the Chevy Shop today.

Allen, Sorry bud - I wasn't trying to make what sounds like a lousy week any worse for you.  I was just wondering what the latest update was, and couldn't resist having a little fun.  I know firsthand how un-nerving it can be to see a pile of sheetmetal stacked off to the side, and I'm sure you'll be glad it went that way in the end.

No problem Gene - Last week wasn't too kind to me at work or with the C500

The trip to the media blaster has been delayed by weather... yes, even in Texas

Now with the delay in expected availability of the one piece AMD trunk floors and other sheetmetal parts, we have decided to delay the media blasting 4-6 weeks.  In the mean time progress will continue in areas where the parts are in hand, like the installation of patch panels in the front floorboards.  The partial floorboard panels are now at the shop, having been received from Year One after a bad order experience that included a gouging on shipping... $175.04 shipping costs.

The floorboard patch panels will be installed before media blasting.  Also, many of the small parts & attaching hardware have already been glass beaded and are being prepared for painting, plating, or other type of finish.

Allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

So be hoenst here which is more nerve racking. Having the car at the shop going through the stages of restoration, or begingin the search for where to do the work, or begining to start looking for he parts to eventually restore the car, or having just bought the car and figuring out that you will soon need to go through everything?

I would recommend gathering needed parts, both good used & quality reproduction parts while they are available.  The good used part supply is drying up, and the great reproduction parts may only be available for a short time... especially considering the retreat in market prices for collector cars.

Just wondering what you guys think. I haven't even thought about where I'd get my car done, if I ever do. I have started accumulating parts for it, but then again I was buying parts for a Charger years before I had this one. And every part I was buying was for 1 of 2 cars in mind, a 500 or a Daytona.

I would recommend doing some preliminary research on paint/restoration shops, but leave the direct discussions & pricing until you are 3-6 months from starting.  Prices & work quality change, shops come and go especially when it comes to restoration work.  Major restoration shops may be more stable (Roger Gibson, MCR, Etc), but much higher in cost $$$$$$$$$$$.

Just my 

Allen

[Rob1426]

Allen, media blasting will leave rust inside the cowl especially the top, inside the back part of doors and on areas backside of the rear side window area.  This is hard to see without using a mirror or taking pictures from inside. 

Regards
Bob
hooverautoparts.com 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Allen, media blasting will leave rust inside the cowl especially the top, inside the back part of doors and on areas backside of the rear side window area.  This is hard to see without using a mirror or taking pictures from inside. 

Regards
Bob
hooverautoparts.com 

Hi Bob... Imagine running into a `Cuda guy like you on a Charger forum.  Well, you did own a Charger one time... 

As far as plastic media blasting, I know that it will not remove rust.  Selective sand blasting will also be done on very limited areas like the sub-frames, but not on sheet metal.  But some "blind" areas will not be accessible for removing surface rust, although all areas showing rust penetration have been opened up.  The blind areas will be treated with POR-15 or similar rust inhibitor treatment.

How's the `Cuda doing?

Allen

[BigBlockSam]

Selective sand blasting will also be done on very limited areas like the sub-frames, but not on sheet metal.  But some "blind" areas will not be accessible for removing surface rust, although all areas showing rust penetration have been opened up.  The blind areas will be treated with POR-15 or similar rust inhibitor treatment.
 

thats the best way. thats how i did my charger. it's those sneaky places that come back and get ya. i also sand blasted the body. you have to be careful doing that . my guy has been doing it a long time and knows how to be gentle and not warp any panels. RENE

[moparstuart]

Allen, media blasting will leave rust inside the cowl especially the top, inside the back part of doors and on areas backside of the rear side window area.  This is hard to see without using a mirror or taking pictures from inside. 

Regards
Bob
hooverautoparts.com 

Hi Bob... Imagine running into a `Cuda guy like you on a Charger forum.  Well, you did own a Charger one time... 

As far as plastic media blasting, I know that it will not remove rust.  Selective sand blasting will also be done on very limited areas like the sub-frames, but not on sheet metal.  But some "blind" areas will not be accessible for removing surface rust, although all areas showing rust penetration have been opened up.  The blind areas will be treated with POR-15 or similar rust inhibitor treatment.

How's the `Cuda doing?

Allen

i had a really bad experience with por 15  hopefully it has gotten better in the last 5 years

[The70RT]

Allen, media blasting will leave rust inside the cowl especially the top, inside the back part of doors and on areas backside of the rear side window area.  This is hard to see without using a mirror or taking pictures from inside. 

Regards
Bob
hooverautoparts.com 

Hi Bob... Imagine running into a `Cuda guy like you on a Charger forum.  Well, you did own a Charger one time... 

As far as plastic media blasting, I know that it will not remove rust.  Selective sand blasting will also be done on very limited areas like the sub-frames, but not on sheet metal.  But some "blind" areas will not be accessible for removing surface rust, although all areas showing rust penetration have been opened up.  The blind areas will be treated with POR-15 or similar rust inhibitor treatment.

How's the `Cuda doing?

Allen

i had a really bad experience with por 15  hopefully it has gotten better in the last 5 years

What happened??

[moparstuart]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,32617.msg360034.html#msg360034
  here is a picture , it's suppost to bond to the metal and become one , after five-six years it was peeling off i huge strips we had to peel it all up 
     if you look at the passenger side cockpit floor pan , that is were we had used  POR-15  rust product on the new floor pans installed 5 some years ago . By the time ed my new body man got the car it was all peeling up .  Not so impressed with Por-15 any one else had good or bad experiences ?
the rusty surface on the floor is where i had started to peel it up and then it started started surface rusting right away .