Soft market?

[ChargerST]

I've been following ebay auctions for quite some time and is just me that prices seem to go down the first time after steadily going up for years? I mean the final bids are considerably lower than a few months ago (my perception).

Do you think this is just temporarily or has the market reached it's peak?

What are the reason? More cars can be saved due to higher availibility of parts, financial pressure?,...



Just curious what you guys think

[ChargerST]

Maybe not the best example but if the description is right 29k for a nice looking V-code Charger???

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-DODGE-CHARGER-S-CODE-RT-440_W0QQitemZ230171226246QQihZ013QQcategoryZ6199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[ChargerSG]

The prices have gone down, but insted allot of stuff dont show up

[TUFCAT]

I agree.....and the PARTS are a lot cheaper too.  For what its worth, I don't see a lot of people selling, and for the most part, they're hanging onto what they have unless they're forced to sell.  I'm hoping the market will come back. 

[Lord Warlock]

The car market for charger's hasn't gone down, it just isn't growing while the market is in flux.  With all the mortgage mess going on, there is less loose cash around for toys, but the cars aren't dropping in value unless someone is in a position where they have to sell.  After you've held on to your charger for a decade or two, the minor fluctuations in the demand/supply chain don't make much difference overall.  Spend the time making your car better instead of trying to sell when money is tight for alot of folks, then later you'll be able to get more out of it.  (if you ever sell it)

Lord Warlock
29 years of chargerdom

[chargerpeople]

hi,

I think the reason parts are cheaper is because the amount of dealers for them has doubled in the last 2 years.. there are also lots of new manufacturers in the mix of it all. making parts that are already available from somebody else.. this is going to cause a price war , there isn't enough market for this stuff to expand so vastly.. it will be interesting to see how long some of the new mfg's and dealers last !!

RSS

[472 R/T SE]

Don't mean to nitpick but that '70 may be a little on the high side actually.  Seller says it's a "S and V" code.  Regardless, there weren't factory A/C cars with a "V" or "R" code car.

[DodgeChargerNeeded]

I think its sorta flooded right now

[Mean 318]

They are going out of season right now, winter almost here an all. IMO

[68charger383]

Well besides the housing market removing the large amounts of equity available to buy these cars, it gets kind of hard to drop $40-$50K on a nice R/T when you could buy a new Porsche Boxster or 2 new Charger R/Ts for the same money (use any car which fits the example, I know they are not 1st/2ng/3rd gen Chargers...but it crosses peoples minds). Basically, how many people now have the cash for this type of luxury.

Like the houses, $40-$50K for these cars is at the top of the price boom, their dropping and readjusting in price since they doubled/tripled in value over the past few years.  Less people can take out an equity loan from their dropping house value or have less disposable cash because the prices on everything else has increased which prevents them from buying one. Interest rates on car loans (if you can get a loan on a classic) are also creeping up. It seems Speculators and owners (like the houses) are flooding the market trying to sell why the prices are still high.

Bottomline is, how many of us would own a Charger if we did not already own one and had to go out right now and buy one. The ones which are rust buckets or smashed cars go for $5-10K and the semi restored ones needing about $10K worth of work go for $12K-18K.  Next time you go to a show or see a car, look at the owner. Its usually not some 20 year old hanging out with his friends at a Burger King on Friday night, its a 40-60 year old who pulled it out of the museum for a sunday drive/show.

[Mike DC]

   
IMHO, it's something bigger than that in the works.  I think the whole perception is changing.


All the repro parts, repro unibodies of other cars, the new engine/tranny parts gradually becoming almost as cheap as overhauling old stock item . . .  I think we're seeing a beginning of a wholesale shift away from the "irreplaceable" view of these cars. 

It's only been a small change so far, but I think it's coming from forces bigger than just the current mortgage situation.

   

[Ghoste]

A very interesting point Mike. 

[hemihead]

The Mortgage thing is one. It's harder for someone to go out and refinance their house to buy that $50,000 + toy.And the Babyboomers who worship these cars are getting older now and their priorities are changing.Another thing is that owning a Musclecar was a fad for a lot of people and those people have found the next " in " thing to do.With all this happening, the dropping prices will make the investor types lose interest and I think there will be fewer new parts repopped. 

[41husk]

I would agree the baby boomers who had seen these cars all over growing up are fading, but the popularity of the muscle car has not.  I think the new Cammaro, Mustang, Challenger, and even Charger are proof of that.  My dream car is a wing car.  I have accepted I will never be able to afford a real Daytona or Bird, but the influx of reproduction wing car parts is making it more and more feasable to get a nice clone.  Do I want to pay 30-40K on a clone that the bank will give me 3 years to pay on at about 1k a month or do I get a new hemi Challenger at 50k that the bank will let me pay for 6 years at about $700 a month?

[RD]

you are all wrong, the reason for this happening is that I have not been on ebay in a while hehe

[Brock Samson]

IMHO i think folks are nervous right now, all these rising costs and talk of folks losing their homes... plus alot of us folks have our "Classic" cars now and the next generation is buying new/er cars now, it's sure alot easyier to go to the dealer and buy a new or used RT or Mustang GT and put trick wheels on it, then it is to get into the Old Car Hobby at whatever level...  Most folks dont wrench on their cars anymore or want to..

 

[TUFCAT]

Mike, your point is valid. My example is Mustang parts.  People have been restoring Mustangs for nearly 30 years. The mustang reproduction parts market got invented very early on, and STILL THRIVES (which kept these cars on the road longer, contributing to their desireability/collectability).  The cars also remained dependable, driven more often, and became the brand of the most loved, collected, and LOYAL group of owners out there...that's why we Americans like the current "retro model" so much!  The aftermarket parts business was always strong, and always eager to bring new products to the market knowing they would be gobbled up as soon as they left the molds.  Because of the demand for Mustang restoration parts, you can basically buy anything (nearly the whole car) from any one of the plethora of catalogs available.

Mopars were never the case. Its getting MUCH better though. It serves as a double edge sword. With the reproduction stuff available, it takes away from the exclusive club of high-dollar cars (and the owners) who searched the country and paid top dollar for the rare, hard-to-find part to make that car a shining example of a "superior restoration"  - - now, on the other hand -  the one I like better, more nice cars are are the road than ever before with all the correct, previously non-existent parts.  E-body's started this trend with some "formerly impossible to find" rare parts becoming wholesale items, rather than treasures.

In the future, I believe this trend this will make survivor cars with most all original equipment be the most collectible...even in a soft market.

 

[dkn1997]

   
IMHO, it's something bigger than that in the works.  I think the whole perception is changing.


All the repro parts, repro unibodies of other cars, the new engine/tranny parts gradually becoming almost as cheap as overhauling old stock item . . .  I think we're seeing a beginning of a wholesale shift away from the "irreplaceable" view of these cars. 

It's only been a small change so far, but I think it's coming from forces bigger than just the current mortgage situation.

   

I agree that the whole "irreplaceable" concept is changing, but I don't think the prices will drop significantly until the prices of the parts drop.  I think that when a car is for sale, that somewhere in the buyers mind is the question "what would it cost to duplicate this"  say you see a nice 70 v code r/t charger, somewhere you gotta be thinking "if I went out and bought a project, wrenched it myself, or paid someone, what would it cost?"  How low can the price of a complete car go if the prices of the parts to restore/build one are so through the roof?   Even if the parts got cheaper, the labor never will.  and what are the odds of the parts getting cheaper?  very slim. the only stuff that gets a little cheaper usually is NOS as new ones get repro'd. (original tuff wheels are not going for what they used to)

I hope the prices do come down a bit because I am selfish.  I will never sell my car and I want to be able to afford something for my son to drive when he gets older. 

[Mike DC]

   
I agree.  These cars may still get cheaper in some cases, but not much.   There's probably gonna be decent demand for at least another couple of decades, and that means they'll never really get cheaper than the price of (re)building them during that time. 

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I personally think that numbers-matching cars will lose some prestige except for the top few percent.  Hemi/4spd cars are always gonna be the cream of the crop for collectibility, but I mean the medium-collectible stuff like a Challenger R/T with its original 383/727.  (Not saying the CAR won't be sought-after, but its numbers-matching status may carry less additional weight than before.) 

When we eventually start losing the generation of buyers that actually remembers these cars from the 60s/70s anymore, I think they will take a lot of the numbers-matching appreciation with them.  It's a lot harder to get interested in that stuff when you got hooked on the hobby after everything had already been rebuilt once or twice already.  For those of us who got their first Charger within the last 15 years or so, something "original" has almost always just meant "completely worn out."

   

[69charger2002]

mike i couldn't agree more. i have never been an advocate of a charger having to be "numbers matching". does that mean i don't appreciate them or respect them? of course not. BUT as the newer and younger generations keep getting involved(used to be my generation, but now i'm 30..) the hype for numbers matching 383 and 318 cars etc is and will drop. i would personally MUCH rather pay $25k for a 318 69 charger that has been very well done with a 440 engine etc.. than pay $25k for a numbers matching R/T 69 charger, that most likely at that price still needs work..

as to the soft market right now. that is DEFINITELY the case.. i just sold a 68 R/T roller project on ebay. i put no reserve. it ended for $3050. 6 months ago, i would have gotten $5000 for it without batting an eye. there are many reasons why, but IMO the main reason IS the housing/mortgage worries and people not tying up more money for a play toy. only the few that have cash equity in hand are still buying, and they are much pickier. if you have unlimited cash flow right now, it is a GREAT time to buy if you are patient. there are still too many people with high reserves and refuse to let their car go for a "deal".. but then others are forced to sell right now, and will take whatever they go for. if you don't believe people are still hanging on to high prices. go to ebay completed.. narrow the search to say 68-70 dodge chargers and look how many are red(reserve not met). it's staggering. wasn't that way 6 mos to a year ago.. ACTUALLY i just looked it up. 40 out of the last 62 chargers sold on ebay were reserve not met. that's basically 65% of them not selling
trav

[68charger383]

Another factor is with the softening market here and the weak dollar overseas...these cars are a bargain to our foreign friends and they might end up going across the pond.

[hemi-hampton]

Mike, I think the #'s Matching cars allready did lose some Prestige. I remember in the late 80's when prices skyrocket, the real r/t & musclecars allways got 4 times more then a phony clone. Couldn't give a 318 car away back then. Nowadays, everybody wants to buy a 318 cheap, throw in a 440 6 pak or hemi & make a phony clone Cuda or R/T out of it, This is OK, The only differance between the late 80's & now with these is now people try to ask the same $$ for a phony as the real thing  saying big deal on #'s matching, dont mean anything, trying to justify paying $100,000 for clone like it's the real thing. In the late 80's you'd get 1/4 or 25% of the real thing. LEON.

P.S. Also, Noticed it seems like people who say #'s dont mean a thing are people with clones while the people with real cars say it does matter, just the way it goes.

[chargerman68]

maybe its get that way i just saw a bin on ebay for a daytona for only 159,000....

[hemi-hampton]

Can you translate that

[chargerman68]

sure on ebay there is a 69 daytona for a buy it now of 159,000 dollars way under previous prices for those cars off ebay