The 69 500 that was for sale at the Nats

[hemi68charger]

Troy

I hate to split them up but something needs to go! Trying to build a new shop and the extra cash would be handy. This is actually the first time that they are in the same room since I have owned them. And I think safe to say since Dec 4th 1969
Ed

New shop for new toys?   

[gordo1968charger]

how many charger 500s were made in 69?and what is the restorable 69 actually worth?i know they are very collectable and very rare.

[hemi68charger]

how many charger 500s were made in 69?and what is the restorable 69 actually worth?i know they are very collectable and very rare.

Depends on which number in which year you wanna subscribe too.. Earlier, the "magic" number was 392, for a long time. There was even a break down of driveline configurations. Then some one (who will remain nameless) stated there were over 580, but this time, without a driveline configuration breakdown.. Go figure..... Personally, I like the 392 number putting my 4-speed 440 C500 at 26 units....... 

[69_500]

Ed you can't be serious about getting rid of one those HEMI 500's. Is the R6 one even finsihed yet? I was hoping to see it in person before you ever parted with the car.

I still agree with the figure of 392 units. I won't personally believe that they made any more than that until I locate 393 units, then I'll think about it. As for now, I can only account for 248 cars. Which means there is a heck of a lot of them left to find if there was 575+ built. Or not so many left to find if the 392 number is right. I believe the 392 to be right, and that there was somewhere around 112 HEMI cars built leaving 280 440 cars. Of those I personally think that there is probably around 65-70 4 speed cars, but I can only say that I know of 26.

[69_500]

Side note Ed, your cars would have been side by side on December 4th 1968 though, not 1969. Not sure where each car was in December of 69, but it wasn't the factory.

I'm sure you meant 68 though. Beautiful cars none the less. All you need now is the white one that goes in between.

[hemi68charger]

Ed you can't be serious about getting rid of one those HEMI 500's. Is the R6 one even finished yet? I was hoping to see it in person before you ever parted with the car.

I still agree with the figure of 392 units. I won't personally believe that they made any more than that until I locate 393 units, then I'll think about it. As for now, I can only account for 248 cars. Which means there is a heck of a lot of them left to find if there was 575+ built. Or not so many left to find if the 392 number is right. I believe the 392 to be right, and that there was somewhere around 112 HEMI cars built leaving 280 440 cars. Of those I personally think that there is probably around 65-70 4 speed cars, but I can only say that I know of 26.

My argument for the smaller number is; "Why would Dodge make more than required?" It cost them to produce them... Now, if there's a Holy Graill of VIN's out there, I'll eat crow.

[69_500]

How much do you like Crow?

Because there is supposedly a Holy Grail of VIN's, but there is only 1 person who has supposedly seen it, or has access to it. Take a guess.

[Ghoste]

Don't start slaughtering the crows yet though,  Not until the great one comes down from the mount with the stone tablet in hand to reveal his special secret info to us. 

[69_500]

I think those crows are safe for another 15 years.

On a bright side, he can't outlive all of us.

[hemi68charger]

How much do you like Crow?

Because there is supposedly a Holy Grail of VIN's, but there is only 1 person who has supposedly seen it, or has access to it. Take a guess.

I know and wonder why it would be such a "secret" to keep it a secret.. I don't think MaMopar cares if it's known.. After all, they have the historical department... Now, if it was a case that MaMopar didn't make enough, then, they would have to eat crow ( by the very definition of 392, guess they need to have a feast )....... I can't imagine Doug or Sue would be left out in the dark...... But, alas, what do I know?

Maybe I'll email Dave and ask him........

T

[Ghoste]

Maybe when the bezel thing is answered with finality he'll write the definitve book on Chrysler aero car identification and resoration.

[hemigeno]

On the subject of the 392 - was there ever a list of VINs which added up to that total?  I have totally forgotten how that number was arrived at.  In particular, I was wondering if any C500s would have been found that were NOT on a list of 392 cars - which might be a good reason to invalidate that total number of cars. 

I know Galen has been very secretive with his source of information that gives him the higher total of C500 production, but I don't know why.  I suppose it's his business (literally) so he can do with it as he sees fit.  To me, that information does more good when it's made available to all rather than just a few, but that's just me.  I do know that I'm not the only one who thinks that way though.  When I spoke with Anthony Young, who was the guy that "discovered" the Daytona Shipping List, he seemed more than a little chagrined that the Shipping List was not made more readily available to the general public.  I am quite sure that if he had to do it all over again he wouldn't have donated the list to just one club.

[Aero426]

Personally, and this is just gut feeling on my part, is that the 392 number is too low for the percentage of known cars.   

[PocketThunder]

Personally, and this is just gut feeling on my part, is that the 392 number is too low for the percentage of known cars.   

Doug, what is your gut feeling on survival rate for Daytonas?  50%, 75%???  I would guess that the Aero cars survived better than regular model Chargers and Dannys count of 248 would put C500s at 63% survival rate so far.  This doesnt seem too out of line to me, however i might be just a little biased like the other Troy

[hemi68charger]

Geno.. Yeap, your point is valid. How did the original number originate? The "numbers" have a history of being misunderstood. Take for example, the first production number of '70 v-code Charger R/T's was thought to be 116 (back in the early 80's).. Turned out to be significant, but it was the total number of R/T SE's equipped with the E87 option, not total XS29V0's.......

I still think the C500's are the rarest of the aero-Chryslers...... and that's my final answer....... 

Again, back to my thought pattern. If one can get production numbers from Chrysler Historical, why can't someone get the "shipping list" of C500's? Is it on one piece of paper, no one made a copy and now the one and only copy resides in one person's possession? What's the use of "holding" onto this information? I have to think if it was known to some, word  would spread....

GENO: By the way, does your HEMI badge sit flush with the door or is there a gap? My '68 seems to have a slight wavy gap but no apparent damage is seen on either side of the sheetmetal......

[arrow]

Personally, and this is just gut feeling on my part, is that the 392 number is too low for the percentage of known cars.   

  Some how Chrysler still had a list of selling dealers of 500s that was given to G.G. , I (think )he wont let it out so no more fakes show up . you wouldnt believe the number of fake E bodys out there now .he will give any 500 owner the info. free with proof of owership . he gave me mine free. seems fair enough to me .

[Aero426]

The Bill France telegram to Jacque Passino of Ford references a car count of 540 units.

http://www.superbirdclub.com/C500Passino.html

[Aero426]

These are real rough numbers from memory as far as surviving or accounted cars versus production.

Daytona 73% accounted for
Superbird 67%
Talladega 35%
Spoiler II 32%

I've always figured the 500 would mirror the other "non wing" Aero cars simply because it doesn't have the wierd factor of the Daytona or Superbird going for it.  Any Gomer can see there is something special about a wing car.   

I believe there are a lot of T's, II's and 500's that are unaccounted for.   I personally think that a 60-some percent survival for 500s is high. 

[hemi68charger]

The Bill France telegram to Jacque Passino of Ford references a car count of 540 units.

http://www.superbirdclub.com/C500Passino.html

Well Hell, I better start sharpening my knife for that crow....... 

[moparstuart]

cant taste that bad maybe it tastes like chicken

[hemi68charger]

cant taste that bad maybe it tastes like chicken

  Good point.. I'll put some BBQ sauce on as well...

Guess they made more than 26 440 4-speed cars now.. Man, I liked that number......   

[69_500]

I believe that there is a letter floating around where Chrysler themselves claimed to have only built 392 Charger 500's. I believe it was a letter that was sent to Mr. Russo when he contacted them early in the 70's in regards to his HEMI 500 that he owned, which turned out to be the first 69 charger 500.

As far as the whole survival rate of C500's, its not 60% as there are at least 12 cars that I know of that are no longer with us. And I'm also including VIN's that I have wrote down over the years that I've seen on engine blocks, but have yet to ever see the cars. If you narrow it down to just cars that are still intact and accounted for its probably around 200-210. I'd say between junkyards, and motors that have no car to go with them it would be around 30-40 of the cars.

By the way on that shipment list of selling dealerships, I've seen a few pages of that list, and I have noted a few errors already. One on page I noted that a car was listed as both a HEMI and a 440 car that was sent to 2 different dealerships. Also noted that the same 440 car was listed to at least 3 different dealerships. So I'm not sure if he came up with 570 different VIN's or a total of 570 cars that were shown as shipped. Which with just having seen a few pages I'd say that if they tend to duplicate at the rate I've seen then I'm still thinking it would be less than 400.

[nascarxx29]

I had a page of all 500-s that sold in NJ my area.And it showed the same vin car at 2 different dealers.Hard to narrow down a exact number

[Ghoste]

Personally, I just can't put too much faith in the France to Ford letter either.  The smoke and mirrors the car companies have always put up to sanctioning bodies makes it hard for me to accept those things as gospel.

[chgr500]

I had a page of all 500-s that sold in NJ my area.And it showed the same vin car at 2 different dealers.Hard to narrow down a exact number

Likely one dealer purchasing from another dealer for their customer....still happens today