440 source engine block

[gordo1968charger]

if i bought a 440 source block,what stroker kit? its for 99% street use??

[Challenger340]

What block did you buy ?  Factory Iron Block ?  Compressed Graphite ?

[gordo1968charger]

i have nt bought it yet,the one i was looking at was a seasoned,ready machined,honed,magnafluxed etc block for $995

[Challenger340]

Sorry, I'm not a fan of "ready machined" blocks. 

"Machined", to "what" ? 
How can you machine, when you don't have the other parts your machining your sizes to, there in "front of you", to measure ?

More of the "perfect world" ideology.

In a "perfect world" ,
Piston Sets of 8, are all within .0005" from smallest to largest and dimensionally correct, Yeah right !
Crankshaft journals are all within .0003" straight & round, and, always the correct dimension for clearance ! Again, Dreaming !

I like 440 source, I really do. Good parts, Good Company. I used lots of their rotating assemblies Customers bring in to the shop.

However, All I'm saying is I don't like "pre-machined" blocks, from ANYBODY.
It's BAD practise, frought with potential for failures, and poorly built engines.  You buy it, you assemble it, YOUR MOTOR !
If you go the "pre-machined" route, check & measure EVERYTHING thoroughly.

Apologies for the rant, just my opinion
Bob out.

[gordo1968charger]

bob,
what route would you go down in getting a 440 block?where would i go?unless i got an unmachined block from 440 source?
thanks
gordo

[Steve P.]

Gordo, Bob is right. 440 Source has great stuff and they will allllways talk to you like you are a king, but cylinder bore work should never be done till the MACHINIST has everything in front of him and everything measures our right.  This will be a different thing when 440 Source starts to machine and build complete engines as they WILL have everything in front of them to do the job right.

That being said, you can buy a block from them that has been cleaned, checked for broken mount ears, maged and sonic checked. Not a problem at all..

Another way is to start asking around at the local car shows and cruise ins for a great machine shop in your area. Ask about good parts yards. When you find a machine shop ask the owner/machinist where he suggests buying a block. They all know where to find them and normally have someone on speed dial..

Oh yeah, I should also add that when talking to people at the local shows  talk to the people with the MOPARS. Only about 1 of every 15 or 20 machine shops know anything or care anything about a mopar.. I had to go over 50 miles to find one with a honing plate for a 440...   

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Since the 440 Source machined stock blocks are a fairly new offering, I have never measured one but know by talking to him that they are machined to accommodate his "440 Source" stroker kits, pistons, rings, so they are probably close if not exact.

One thing I would be willing to bet the farm on is that they are not going to be junk or "far" out of spec just because Brandon is not that kind of guy, and because he gets so much "heat" from everyone in the Mopar hobby that would just LOVE to see him go out of business by offering a substandard part.

If I had any use for a block, I would buy one, even if it ended up needing final honed or other "fix". To get the same amount and level of machining will cost about $2,500 from most machine shops. Perhaps you could get a higher level of precision, but the probability is that it would be lower! --- (my experience over the years).

Don't be swayed by talk of Ten Thousandths of an inch precision. This is so irrelevant in the arena of engine building as to be laughable. Factory, and aftermarket part manufacturers always give a range for tolerance due to the fact that every part of the country has differing temperatures, and even in the same location, parts will measure much differently from a cool morning to a hot afternoon, as will measuring instruments. --- Percision at that level? NASCAR and F-1 maybe, but not in the real world.

If you are not comfertable with doing your own measurements and assembly, find a builder who is realistic in workable measurements and have him check out everything and do the assembly, but I suggest that you invest in a couple of good micrometers, snap gauges or bore gauge, and a dial indicator/base and do it yourself. There is no way on earth that someone that is getting paid by the job can be as thourough as YOU as long as you are willing to make sure everything is right no matter how many times it takes.

My point is that I doubt you could do better from a cost/precision standpoint than buying one of Brandons finished blocks, Just be aware that ANY motor part needs to be checked no mater if it's a high end aftermarket part, or a well used stock piece. I'm guessing you can be far ahead of the game with one of these blocks.

[Challenger340]

I disagree wholeheartly with a couple of the above statements, just my opinion, as yours is !

This is NO KNOCK on 440 Source, or, any of their products.   I must get that out right now !

I have used "many" of their rotating assemblies, that Customers have supplied me, and other products, and find them to be a good Company, and Brandon, a great person.

I HAVE NOT seen, or measured, one of their "pre-machined" Blocks.

I fully believe that 440source is trying to fill a market "niche" satisfactorily.

BUY with confidence, if you so desire !

That said, my point being, If you are purchasing a "machined block", IMHO, buy the accompanying Rotating Assembly Parts, that particular Block has been machined for/TO.

Just BEST PRACTISE !

I maintain, it is NOT good practise, to mate Rotating assemblies, with "targeted", "close enough", Machined Blocks. Sometimes they will be fine, sometimes NOT !

440Source "kits" are no different than many others out there. They have variances in the parts/sizes that should be accounted for, when machining a Block if you want the best product.
If you want "close", go ahead. But as mentioned, buy the tools and determine for yourself "what" is "close enough" for you.
It is most definitely YOUR ENGINE.

Sweat or not, as you see fit, the tenthousandths, for yourself,
and remember, "shit will run".

I cannot understand how the "same amount and level of machining" is $2500 ?

Where does it cost that much, to machine a 440 Block ?

Bob out.

[Steve P.]

I disagree wholeheartly with a couple of the above statements, just my opinion, as yours is !

This is NO KNOCK on 440 Source, or, any of their products.   I must get that out right now !

I have used "many" of their rotating assemblies, that Customers have supplied me, and other products, and find them to be a good Company, and Brandon, a great person.

I HAVE NOT seen, or measured, one of their "pre-machined" Blocks.

I fully believe that 440source is trying to fill a market "niche" satisfactorily.

BUY with confidence, if you so desire !

That said, my point being, If you are purchasing a "machined block", IMHO, buy the accompanying Rotating Assembly Parts, that particular Block has been machined for/TO.

Just BEST PRACTISE !

I maintain, it is NOT good practise, to mate Rotating assemblies, with "targeted", "close enough", Machined Blocks. Sometimes they will be fine, sometimes NOT !

440Source "kits" are no different than many others out there. They have variances in the parts/sizes that should be accounted for, when machining a Block if you want the best product.
If you want "close", go ahead. But as mentioned, buy the tools and determine for yourself "what" is "close enough" for you.
It is most definitely YOUR ENGINE.

Sweat or not, as you see fit, the tenthousandths, for yourself,
and remember, "shit will run".

I cannot understand how the "same amount and level of machining" is $2500 ?

Where does it cost that much, to machine a 440 Block ?

Bob out.

Well said...

[moparguy01]

last time I rebuilt a 440 I had a block checked and machined myself, and it didnt cost 2500 bucks to get it machined. i maybe had 800 into machining. and that was with shops that I trust the machinist.

[gordo1968charger]

my plan was to get a block and stroker kit from 440 source and have a machine shop assemble everything for me,with extra machining if required.

[MOPARHOUND!]

Sorry, I'm not a fan of "ready machined" blocks. 

"Machined", to "what" ? 
How can you machine, when you don't have the other parts your machining your sizes to, there in "front of you", to measure ?

More of the "perfect world" ideology.

In a "perfect world" ,
Piston Sets of 8, are all within .0005" from smallest to largest and dimensionally correct, Yeah right !
Crankshaft journals are all within .0003" straight & round, and, always the correct dimension for clearance ! Again, Dreaming !

I like 440 source, I really do. Good parts, Good Company. I used lots of their rotating assemblies Customers bring in to the shop.

However, All I'm saying is I don't like "pre-machined" blocks, from ANYBODY.
It's BAD practise, frought with potential for failures, and poorly built engines.  You buy it, you assemble it, YOUR MOTOR !
If you go the "pre-machined" route, check & measure EVERYTHING thoroughly.

Apologies for the rant, just my opinion
Bob out.

Two of my premium Ross pistons were .038" over, instead of .040" over like the rest in the set.

#7 and #8 cylinders were honed accordingly, and the pistons have been opposite each other in the block for over 10,000 miles.

Original builder said he hones each individual cylinder to each respective piston.  Unlike the guy who built the 440 assembly that occupied the block prior to the 496 assembly going in.  The 440 assembly only lasted 1500 miles, with numerous clearances/measurements all over the map.

My entire machining/balancing/labor bill for numerous procedures including assembly was $1,500.00 (5 years ago).

[firefighter3931]

Original builder said he hones each individual cylinder to each respective piston. 

That is the correct way to do it....the finish hone has to be compatible with the piston that will be occupying that bore. 

Fwiw, the machining bill for mine was nowhere near $2500.00....closer to $1500.00 IIRC.



Ron

[Steve P.]

I absolutely agree. And what if you were NOT using top of the line pistons??

I have sent back sets of pistons for being all over the board. 

[defiance]

I agree that these things won't be 'take it home and assemble it' things, but some of us face local machine shops with VERY limited capabilities... It took me quite some time to track down, nearly 100 miles away, the nearest shop that could line bore or deck my 440.  About all anyone else could do was bore/hone cylinders.  Not to mention, finding one that wasn't bored past usability was a bit of a chore.  Seems to me, especially when you look at the cost of aftermarket blocks, under $1k for one that's line clean, solid, line bored, decked, and with good not-hugely-bored cylinders is a fair deal.  Not *great*, no doubt, but fair.  Not to mention, if he starts selling the kits & blocks in packages with the machining set to the tolerances of the stroker kit, it will be a pretty darned good deal.

[Challenger340]

I gotta chime in, with an example of what I'm talking here.

I just got in, a Customers resto 426 HEMI crank from SCAT.
NICE FORGING, and, actually, the same Crank Mopar Performance sells in the catalog, SCAT is Mopars supplier.

Anyway, I take a Mic. and check the throws. Nice grind job, the throws all measure 2.3748"

Now here is where things get "persnicity". I dig out my last Blueprint sheet, on a SCAT HEMI Crank, dated "05/07", back in May. That Cranks throws, I measured at 2.3735".

The "MAY" Crank(#1), same supplier, same crank, a 3.75" resto forging, was a full .0013" inch SMALLER on the throws, than the crank I recieved today from SCAT.(#2 crank)

Now, here's the kicker, with a pre-machined ANYTHING, that is NOT checked, and/or adjusted & sized to the part it's being mated with.

If we take some new Rods outa the box, from anybody, and torque up a Bearing in one, the "hole" that the Rod throw is going in, is created.

For example sake, lets say that "hole" created by the Rod with the bearing in it, measures 2.3760".

Crank #1 would have an acceptable .0025" Oil clrc., which is my opinion just "puss" to go have a fun street/strip engine @ rpm.
However,
Crank #2, would only have a Bearing clrc of .0012". "within" spec., However, I WOULD NOT recommend the guy going beating on it for a number of reasons, @ 6000 rpm, too numerous to list here, and that would be way too long a conversation on Bearing eccentricities, speed & cooling with given Oil wt's.
And,
I dare you to go find an ACTUAL performance engine builder/machinist, that would recommend that clrc. for a 500 HP engine going 6000 rpm.

THAT, my friends, is the reason to NOT mate "pre-machined" anything, with "other" parts, unless you're gonna do alot of checking yourself.

Same thing in a "pre-machined" Block. What has it been line honed to ? What size is the Crank mains I'm  mating to it ?
What have the cylinders been honed to ? What sizes are the Pistons ? Is one a full .001" bigger than the rest ? If so, is it gonna be a thou too tight ? Thats BAD !

It's the old saying, "CLOSE" is good for "horseshoes & hand grenades" !

NOT saying don't buy 440source "pre-machined Block", I'm just saying Buy the rotating assembly, from him also, at the same time, so he can machine "to it".
That, or phone Brandon, and give him the sizes you require/desire, for your rotating assembly, you'll be mating to his block !

Again, apologies for the rant guys
Bob out.

[Steve P.]

Once again Bob. No busted thumbs.. Hit the nail right on the head... 

[firefighter3931]

Excellent post Bob !   

I've got one of those Scat cranks laying around (8 bolt/4.15) for a future project. Probably gonna offset grind it to 4.25 and go with the 7.1/2.2 big end rod. 

Torque rules ! 



Ron