Engine Build Recommendations

[john108]

Hi
I have put up a couple of short posts with some basic dumb questions, but now I am starting to get my engine ready to be rebuilt.  I have a 1968 Charger R/T, 440 Magnum.  I have spent days reading many posts in the engine and performance forums.  Many of those posts touch on what I need to do, but the motivation of each individual may be different then mine.  Without the first hand knowledge, I don't know if their results are appropriate for me.  I think I MAY know what I would like the outcome of the build to be, but not how to get there, or if it is even possible, and what I would be happy with.

There were many posts that stood out to me, including: Moparhounds trials; Keepat's 711 HP Hemi, that cost almost as much as my first house, two years after I bought my '68 Charger ($3900 new off the showroom floor); and all the tremendous knowledge of Fighterfire3931, Ron, as well as many others.

I have always liked power, like Tim the Toolman!  I would like to have the most power I can get while strictly having a street machine.  Decent idle at a stop, in gear, good vacuum, not overheating, etc.  I have no plans to race, as my reflexes are not as good as they were when the Charger was new.
I thought about stock but that won't do it for me.  Its' a feeling!

There has been many positive comments about the 496 stroker kit from 440Source.  This sounds very interesting to me.  Some comments indicate that it tames a .5 inch lift cam.  I believe I understand that it's the valve overlap that affects the idle and torque converter requirements.  What can and needs to be done to go with this kit, or should I consider another path.
Please help me focus in on a path to take, that I would be happy with, and/or willing to take the risk to get the performance. 

If we can pick a path, I can see added questions that I would like to ask, which includes not messing with my original stock engine and start with a machined block, from 440Source.  I would like to put together a desired parts list, with your help, and see if it falls within a scope I feel I can handle..   
John

[Challenger340]

John, in an effort to get the ball rolling here, some questions if you don't mind ?

Especially if contemplating a stroker.

OK, I think I understand your driving style, but lets nail a few parameters here to fine tune things.

"stock" Torque Convertor ?
What rear gear ? 3.23 ?
PS and P/brakes ? Air Cond ?
Are headers gonna be used or exhaust manifolds ?
Stock fuel pump/system ?

My Vote initially, whatever you decide, is to crate & store the original "numbers match" bullet in the corner, just to be safe, and start your build with another candidate engine.

Some ideas to pick apart for a baseline, albeit, this is "muscle car smooth" idle, good vacuum, excellent manners in traffic. All you gotta do is leave it in "D" with the trans setup to self shift at 4800 rpm.
( And thats good, because you'll need a good posi, and, 2 hands on the wheel to keep the thing on the road ! )

This is one we recently did ;

440 based block/main studded/line honed
4.15 Crank
6.76 I-beam rods
Forged slugs @ 9.5:1( 12 cc. D cup )
452 castings w/2.14/1.81 throated/mild port/90 cc chamber
Steet Dominator Manifold(find one)
750 cfm
Hydraulic Cam; 111 lsa,  .539"/.558" W/1.6 Ratio Rocker, 223/228 @ .050 duration
Aluminum, or, Ductile iron rocker arms @ 1.6
HEMI 6 qt. Pan

Break this thing in on a Dyno, using EP oil additive & 1.2 ratio rockers,
or,
scratch the 1.6 rockers in favour of some 1.5's, and go to a 1.5 RR valve seat W/the rest of the hotrod prep.

Scratchs ?, selections ?, substitutions ?, deletions ?

Bob out.

[john108]

Thank you Bob (Challenger340), for your reply.

I agree with starting with a different block.

  "muscle car smooth" idle, good vacuum, excellent manners in traffic. All you gotta do is leave it in "D" with the trans setup to self shift at 4800 rpm. "  I assume that the self shift at 4800 rpm is with your foot in it, otherwise at lower rpm's.

""stock" Torque Convertor ?    YES, it is the stock Converter for now.

What rear gear ? 3.23 ?  YES 3.23 suregrip

PS and P/brakes ? Air Cond ?  Yes to all three.  I just pulled the AC system off but think it would be good to put it back.
Are headers gonna be used or exhaust manifolds ?    That is open to discussion. 

Stock fuel pump/system ?   Can be changed.  The original is 39 years old.

Hydraulic Cam; 111 lsa,  .539"/.558" W/1.6 Ratio Rocker, 223/228 @ .050 duration .  I am not up on cam's but I thought that when you go over the .50 lift, with its associated duration and overlap, it takes away some of the streetability in traffic.  Many posts use an Engle K56 cam

Aluminum, or, Ductile iron rocker arms @ 1.6.  I know less about this.  I have seen 1.5 and 1.6 in posts.  I guess that the higher the number, the cam and associated parts are stressed much higher and wear sooner.  I think I have seen this posted with a roller cam.

Break this thing in on a Dyno, using EP oil additive & 1.2 ratio rockers - ?
It sounds like only engine building shops have this capability.  Right now, I don't know a good shop to work with. I live in Folsom, CA.  If I use a block that has been pre-tested and machined (440 Source), I may only need some expert coaching. I saw your posts where you do not like pre-machined blocks along with rotating assemblies.  I don't have the answers or know what to do yet.  It would be nice if you had your facility closer to where I live.

[firefighter3931]

John, i see that you're new to the site so first off....welcome. 

Ok, i see that you've provided some more info which helps sort things out. The stroker kit is the way to go but you need to match up the components carefully for the best results. The key component is the cam profile and the lift isn't as important as the duration and lobe seperation angle. It won't be too difficult to come up with a descent cam to work within those parameters.

I would stick with a hydraulic cam, non adjustable rockers (simplicity) and build the motor for tight quench with flattop (dished) pistons and closed chamber aluminum heads. This type of build is less prone to detonation issues and will make more power. The compression ratio should be kept in the 10:1 range just to be safe. The last thing you want is to ruin the engine with the dreaded PING or have to detune it to run on pump gas.

This type of build will need a header of some type....ex manifolds will choke it down bigtime.

A mild 500in stroker will make 500+ hp and close to 600 ftlbs of tire twisting torque without breaking a sweat. The right combination will be easy to tune and make lots of engine vacuum for power brakes....no problem there. The transmission will also need to be freshened up with new bands, clutches and steels to handle the x-tra power....it probably should anyway given it's age.

I guess the big question centers around the budget. It boils down to how much you have to spend.



Ron

[john108]

Ron
Thank you for your reply.  I am thinking right along those lines.  As in my earlier post, the smart thing for me to do would be to put my existing engine in a crate and start with another block.  It seems that everything else will eventually be replaced anyway.
I would like to address a few of your comments, as my vocabulary is not up to your speed.

"hydraulic cam, non adjustable rockers (simplicity) and build the motor for tight quench with flattop (dished) pistons and closed chamber aluminum heads"   
I assume (simplicity) means easy and not a style or manufacturer.  I do not understand tight quench and flattop (dished) and closed chamber.  I do understand "Aluminum"!

I think that compression ratio would be tied to the volume in the heads??  But I am sure you know which head would be the right choice.

Headers would be doable but I have read many posts where they don't fit well, too close to the plugs and steering.

The Transmission is a story into itself.  I had it "performance" rebuilt at a shop in Rancho Cordova.  It was to be heavy duty with a shifter kit, to inprove shifting.  He later told me he "borrowed" my lower valve body and he would replace it.  I expected a new or professional rebuilt unit.  I don't know if they are serialized and I donlt know what he did. 
When I received the car back, when it shifted, it felt like a gear would not let go while the other was trying to engage.  I went back to him many times but the problem was not corrected.  I should have persued the matter more but wound up letting it go due to other problems and too much time has passed.
I posted this problem on the forum that addresses transmissions.  I think I provided wrong information as to which shift had the problem.  I referred to the 1st to 2nd but now I think it was the 2nd to 3rd shift.  I seem to remember the 1st to 2nd shift was very solid.
John Kunkel replied but had limited information to work with.  He didn't know of any qualified Mopar transmission shops in the Sacramento, CA area.  He suggested trying to get an unmolested '68 body (assuming that is possible) and purchase a TransGo TF-2 kit. 

Now your big question - Budget.
I can't go "Top-of-the-Line" as Keepat did.  I would like to do it as economically as practical.  I haven't put a dollar value on the project but don't want to skimp if something is needed.  Prices go up exponentially as you try to squeeze the last ounce of power out of the engine.  I want good, reliable, and that it drives well.  Fast is also good.

You didn't address the torque converter.  With the right cam, will the stock unit work (no slicks).

To help me with the shopping list and estimating cost, can you identify some manufacturer names and models that you would recommend. 
Stroker kit (unless individual parts are preferred), heads, cam, intake manifold, carb, bearings, etc.  I would guess you have favorite choices for most of the smaller components as well.
Thank you, again
John

[firefighter3931]

John, i'm going to link a thread for you to read. A lot of your questions will be answered in this thread....stuff like tight quench building, why it's important and how to achieve it. A build similar to this one with a little less compression, a milder cam and smaller tube headers would satisfy your needs.

(1) Non adjustable rocker arms ; BB mopars came from the factory with non adjustable rocker arms....when using a hydraulic cam with reasonable lift....this rocker system is fine. When using a solid or roller cam you need an adjustable valvetrain which is more cost and increased maintenance. If you don't need to run an adjustable valvetrain then use the OEM style rockers...no adjustments needed, ever.

(2) closed chamber head ; this is the best choice for many reasons. As you read about quench you will understand why. Basicly it boils down to keeping the piston to head clearances tight to create a swirl effect that pushes the air fuel mix into the chamber at the point of ignition.

(3) Pistons come in 2 flavors ; flattop and dome. The flattop piston will keep the compression ratio in the pump gas friendly zone. Domed pistons are used to increase compression in race type builds. From an efficiency standpoint, the flattop is better and is the right choice for your build parameters.


Have a peek at this thread and get ready for some good reading ;

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,782.msg12827.html#msg12827


Sorry to hear about your transmission. There are some very good valvebodies available on the market these days. The Turbo Action Cheetah series will serve your needs just fine. They are also available in the fully automatic shift variety. The converter can be picked out when the build parameters are finalized. PTC sells a nice 11in street converter that would work good with the type of combination you're looking to create.


Ron

[Challenger340]

John, 
WELCOME ABOARD !
Didn't realize you are new here.

Info is free, good to see the ball rolling on ideas for your combo.

The engine I listed above, used Iron heads at 9.5:1 because it was a "budget" way to go with $1,000. for heads,    PERIOD ! 
The things we do for "friends".
"Friends", shouldn't let "Friends", use Iron Heads on Strokers !   LOL !

Hence the 46-4800 rpm shift point when mashing it, with the Iron heads/manifolds to maintain the "stock" appeal.
And, well, it does actually Torque like a Motherf***er ! 
I'm Very surprised, it goes very good, but, it falls on it's head badly after that.

Yes, when NOT mashing the loud pedal, it drives normally and shifts much lower.

Aluminum would be way better, like Ron says, and I think you'd be happier later on.

Bob out.