Fuel Injection

[ChgrSteve67]

Has anyone converted thier Charger from carb to "Throttle Body Injection"?
If yes what did you use for a distributer and is it computer controlled?

Steve

[aifilaw]

do a search for fuel injection in the performance corner. there's two threads I know of that discuss the various methods and a few who have done it.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,32084.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25920.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,5847.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,3539.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,225.0.html

[ChgrSteve67]

Looks like the answer to my question is no.

MPFI and TPI is out of my price range or need.

I still have a few outstanding questions out to Holley and AFI.
Waiting to see what they say.

Steve

[scottmiller]

Looks like the answer to my question is no.

MPFI and TPI is out of my price range or need.

I still have a few outstanding questions out to Holley and AFI.
Waiting to see what they say.

Steve

Steve,

Please reply back on this thread with any information you find.  I am contemplating the same thing.

-Scott

[ChgrSteve67]

Will Do.

[aifilaw]

I seem to recall there being a TBI kit from either holley, or edelbrock or both, but only for the RB BB

[defiance]

My fuel injection kit actually started as a Holley Pro-Jection TBI.  At the time, I just ran the stock distributor; the EFI controller took signals from the coil just like an aftermarket tach.
In general, it wasn't difficult to set up, just took some time to get all the wiring and sensors in place

Having said that, I was VERY unsatisfied with the quality of the system.  After less than 8 months, the computer fried.  We had it replaced, and 4 months later (after warranty expiration), it died again.  That's why I switched to Megasquirt.

Later on, the injectors started messing up.  One stopped working completely, and Holley had stopped making or sellling replacements; had to go to ebay.  Then two more started flowing dramatically lower than the rest, and since both were on the same side, that side of the engine run WAY lean - which, since I wasn't running an oxygen sensor at the time, and since the spray 'looked' ok, it took me forever and lots of headache to figure out.

This time, though, I couldn't find the injectors on ebay.  I called holley and they told me the "only solution" would be to buy a conversion kit to convert my throttle body injector tower to use the new style injectors ($120-range) and all four new-style injectors ($90 range each).  I told them to shove it, and converted the manifold. 

Anyway, the point of the story is, holley may make some nice stuff, but I'd go somewhere else for fuel injection....

Have you seen the edelbrock stuff?  I know you said you wanted tbi, but they've got a pretty nice port injection kit that's not much more than the tbi kits I've seen... *edit* - nevermind, I just looked at the price, those things are insane...

Or you could 'roll your own' if you're willing to put some time & effort into it; you could probably put one together well under $1k.

[Troy]

Pro-Max Carbs makes a throttle body with injectors plumbed right into it so you can hook it to a MegaSquirt and use everything else stock (you need an electric fuel pump of course). It is not as efficient as port injection but allows you to get into EFI cheaper and expand the system later. http://promaxcarbs.bizland.com/EFIflyer.pdf The base model MegaSquirt does not control ignition - you just use a standard electronic box.

Troy

[ChgrSteve67]

Thanks Troy!

I have looked at that and $1,500 for a throttle body is a bit much for me.
The MegaSquirt looks like fun but I don't think I have the time to invest in an experimental ECM (My soldering skills suck these days).

So far my top canidate so far is Afordable Fuel Injection, they have a complete kit (minus coil) for $1,650 including a computer controlled distributer.
I'm still waiting for a few more questions to be answered from them.

I have also looked at the Holley TBI but they don't list a computer controlled distributer for my 383. I have sent Holley a e-mail tech question about the distributer but have yet to recieve an answer.

Steve

[defiance]

Originally I just used the stock distributor (no computer timing control), but I eventually got a MSD distributor and locked it out.  Worked brilliantly.  Little steep, though...

Also, here's another possible source for parts:

http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/showresults?q=all_products

Great prices and some nice stuff.  They've got throttle bodies for $399 without injectors.   They also build 'kits' with everything you need except an ECU, but they don't price them on the website (I'd guess they run in the $1k range).

Also, having run megasquirt for quite a while now, I can honestly say it's not really 'experimental'.  You can buy them pre-assembled (ie http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-complete-c-25.html - $240 - $430 assembled, depending on what options you choose), and if you don't get a beta version of the firmware, they're as stable as any aftermarket ecu I've seen.  The only difficulty is that you need to run all the wiring yourself, and pick out the rest of the parts.

Another good source is  http://www.racetronix.com
Which sells all kinds of injectors.  A set of 4 80# injectors would run around $250.

[Rolling_Thunder]

auto-nomics is a great source...     i suggest their kits and purchasing a MSII from whoever...     

[dkn1997]

I ran a holley  900 cfm projection 4 analog model for a couple of years in my 68.  Driveability was good, very noticeable improvement in midrange.  like cruising steady and slowly accelerating.  My problem was that the computer sucked.  the one that came with it (I bought the system used) was no good, started and ran, but at WOT, bad miss.  swapped to an ebay 30$ replacement and all was good.  but...I never got it to run great.  good, yes.  great, no.  I had zero issues with the holley throttle body, tps, injectors, etc..  If megasquirt was around back then, I would probably still run it. 

If you want to do it on the cheap, I would score a setup of ebag with a fragged controller and then get the megasquirt I controller for it.  I think you could do that system for really cheap, maybe for 5-600 bucks.   If you are just starting out with efi, you really don't need spark control.  once you get into it, then you can upgrade your MS controller or get an MSII. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Holley-Projection-Fuel-injection-Kit-4-Barrel_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33553QQihZ016QQitemZ260146442463QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Holley-throttle-body-pro-jection-4-fuel-injection_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33553QQihZ011QQitemZ320143451284QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

a good starting point...:  http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Holley-Pro-Jection-4DI-Throttle-Body_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33553QQihZ006QQitemZ160144475194QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[dkn1997]

here is a brand new throttle body with a bunch of parts that would be a smokin deal if it does not go up too much...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HOLLEY-ELECTRONIC-PRO-JECTION-AND-MORE-LOT-TAKE-A-LOOK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33553QQihZ012QQitemZ220138165460QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[aifilaw]

as far as fuel injectors are concerned there are effectively two types, low impedance and high impedance. You can turn a low impedance injector into a high impedance with a high wattage resistor placed in series with each injector...
but in the end a brand new injector (I highly suggest and recommend the Ford SVO injectors regardless of your application) set will run about $300-500 for a set of 8 matched and new.

At the point I am, I could go to a junkyard and rip an OBD1 system out of a mid 90's chevy, with sensors and make it work on any engine as a retrofit for probably about $300 all said and done for something that can manage less than 600 HP at the rear wheels and less than 7000 RPM.... but its an older system and the OBDII is far superior in every way I'm told, I just don't have any experience with it yet. Perhaps I will take one of these routes with mine, or buy a 3rd party system... we will see what's out when I have the money...

Honestly I don't see spending more than $1,500 for a fuel injection system all said and done (intake, throttle body, injectors, MAF, o2's, crank/cam sensor, knock sensor)

[Rolling_Thunder]

i am going with a MSII system while i mess with an OBDII system to try to adapt it to run EFI - if i can make simple mods and figure it all out I plan on selling full kits for an affordable price.

[dkn1997]

Mass air is another option. There is a guy on cudachallenger.com who runs a ford mass air 5.0 EFI system on a small block mopar.  He claimed that with the mass air, all you really needed to do was size the mass air meter and injectors to your hp level (which dictates your air and fuel requirements)  He claims he did no other tuning and it runs great.  had to funkify a distributor to run the ford spark system, but that did not seem like a huge deal.

others bashed him saying that without programming, he was not getting the most, but he contended that it ran great, strong, reliable and for most of us, that's good enough. bonus is that any Ford 5 liter stuff is dirt cheap because there is so much around.  He posts on moparts too.

[aifilaw]

yes, running mass air, is for lack of a better term just running an open loop tune.
All you need for that is a mass air flow sensor, 8 injectors, and a crank sensor.
Without the last sensor your injectors don't know when to squirt, or how often. But that should be all you need for an open loop tune. If you take it to a dyno you can set the MAF table requirements across the RPM's precisely... as long as you have your timing right (doesn't even need to be on the same system, could be stand-alone) you will have a dead-on fuel injection system.

[ChgrSteve67]

Holley's responce to my inquery about a computer controlled distributer for my 383.
~~~
Hello
You can use any distributor to trigger the EFI.  If you are wanting to run
programmable timing curves you will need a crank trigger or a custom
distributor
~~~

Anyone ever had a custom distributer made?
What was the cost?

AFI is looking better and better all the time.

Got one more ave. to check out then I'm going to make my move.

Steve

[defiance]

You don't need a custom distributor for programmable timing curves, any distributor that can have the advance locked out (such as the MSD pro-billet) can be used for electronic timing curves.  here's one for a 383.  Not cheap, but it definitely works - I'm using the same model on my 440 (just the 440 version) http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8545&N=700+400122+4294908110+4294840053+115&autoview=sku

[aifilaw]

its really not a big deal to run the spark side and fuel side of the engine control from two separate systems. aka, use fuel injection, and get one of the programmable timing curve distributer systems and run it separately. The only downside is it won't be able to pull (retard) timing if it senses a knock... assuming you will have a knock sensor.


This is why I would keep away from AFI

9. Answer: Do I have to program the fuel injection system myself or is it preprogrammed?

Your fuel injection system will come with a pre programmed chip. This chip will be built as close as possible to your application. In some cases there is still more tuning that needs to be done of which we will send you a new chip to correct the situation.

Programmable ECM's are available at significant extra cost.

[ChgrSteve67]

I'm looking for a computer controlled distributer that will fit my 383.

I know that any msd system with a triger signal will work with a TBI system but that will only give me flow control not timing control.

[defiance]

The distributor I linked to above is perfect for use in computer timing control, that's how I'm using it.  You just lock out the advance, send the trigger signal to an ECU with timing control, and send the output from the ECU to the coil. 

[ChgrSteve67]

With computer controlled distributers the ECM determines the advance curve electronically. No mechinical or vacuume advance.
Also I wont need a seperate electronic ignition module for the distributer.

I know steve always has to do things the hard way.

[Rolling_Thunder]

With computer controlled distributers the ECM determines the advance curve electronically. No mechinical or vacuume advance.
Also I wont need a seperate electronic ignition module for the distributer.

I know steve always has to do things the hard way.

I do them the hard way as well...    I'm not even running an distributor   

[defiance]

With computer controlled distributers the ECM determines the advance curve electronically. No mechinical or vacuume advance.
Also I wont need a seperate electronic ignition module for the distributer.

I know steve always has to do things the hard way.

Exactly.  The MSD above comes with springs to set mechanical advance, or you can flip the weight and it locks advance out in order to allow the ECU to control it.  Also, if you don't like the MSD, you could open up the stock distributor and epoxy the mechanical advance weights shut, then just cap off the vacuum.  That would accomplish the same thing

Yet another option would be to adapt a ford EDIS system to go distributorless (Rolling_Thunder- is that what you did?  Or are you using some other solution?)

[Rolling_Thunder]

EDIS all the way!        now only if i had the time to work on my car...          im busy putting a indy 528 and a 5-speed into a challenger   

[ChgrSteve67]

Well after looking at all of my options and my pocket book I'm going to go with the AFI TBI setup.

My Uncle found the fuel injection system he was looking at in Hot Rod mag
http://www.massfloefi.com/

Very nice setup, woud love to do this but $4,750.00 for a complete system is way more than I'm willing to spend.

I'm going to order the TBI next week.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Steve

[aifilaw]

try to document what you can and post back how it goes in detail. I know a lot of us are looking at the FI options these days and wondering if it can be done for 50-100% more than the cost of a carb, and if so, and easily enough a lot would change.