Next HURRICANE 3rd largest ever recorded...life will drastically change.

[ChargerBill]

After watching the coverage of this next hurricane and the damage it may cause I'll admit I'm more than a little unnerved. I have friends that are evacuating right now, and the Red Cross is ready and waiting. it seems like we will avoid the horrible body count caused by Katrina to a large extent...thank God, but many still won't evacuate and unless martial law is declared they cannot make anyone leave against their will.

Here is what we as a nation have to look forward to IF this things hits with the intensity they are predicting:

Nearly a million and a half people will be displaced between both hurricanes.
MANY billion$ in damage will be incured, and SOMEONE (you and me) will have to absorb that cost.
Gas will likely hit $4/gal and possibly $5/gal.
Energy bills this winter could double and even triple.
Groceries and most other comodities will increase in price.
National security will be at it's most vulnerable
etc, etc, etc...

Look guys, I am not a doomsday kind of person - optimism is something I am always trying to employ, it's just that this doesn't look good at all. Best case scenario gas ONLY hits $3.50 to $4.00, only HALF a million people are affected, only a few refineries (as opposed to the possible 12) are incapacitated, energy bills ONLY go up 50%, and so on...you get the picture. Worse case...I don't even want to think about it - do you? I mean, WHO can afford to spend $100 to fill their gas tank? Who can afford $7.00/gal milk or $5.00/lb ground beef? Where are all these people going to live...NOW and a year from now? How long will it take to rehabilitate Houston, New Orleans, etc....? How thin can we spread our National Gaurds and reserves before we are sitting ducks?

My deal is this: If gas does go over $4.00/gal I will have no choice but to sell my project Charger, sell my Silverado (IF possible) and buy some obscure POS 1980's commuter Honda and/or a motorcycle. In fact, I went and priced Honda Cycles today at the local dealership...figure that I'll probably finace one for $100/month and drive it exclusively unless there's snow on the ground or maybe even sell my Charger to buy a motorcycle outright. It's getting to the point where if all hell breaks loose (and it very well could) it becomes a matter of surviving...luxuries and hobbies go out the window. I don't want to sound paranoid or like an alarmist, but I'm concerned...can you tell? I barely make the bills and keep food on the table as it is (like many of you paycheck to paycheck guys out there)...gas prices would make it impossible for me to conduct business, get to the grocery store or go pretty much anywhere. I get 14 mpg and I'm 6 miles out of town...12 miles round trip and that is ONLY to the grocery store and gas station and back. I drive an average of 30 miles per day and sometimes as much as 50...which could potentially cost $75 to $125 per week in gas alone....$300 to $500 in gas a month!

Shoot, I thought this would help but I'm even scaring myself. I'll let someone else vent...I just don't know what else to say....

[bull]

It doesn't matter how many people die, how many small businesses go under, how many families go broke, how many homes are washed away, how many dream cars are sacrificed, so long as Exxon is able to maintain its 7+ billion dollar profits. Right guys?

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Yep, we need to stop Exxon from causing all these hurricanes.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Alright, check it out, since it's about time to get realistic about the whole corporate bashing thing: prices are not the economy.  Prices are signals about the economy.  Read up.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1569

Here's a summary:

Governments from the Gulf Coast to California are urging investigations of 'price-gouging,' but gas, hotel, water, and other price increases after Katrina are not a moral failing by companies. They are an economic necessity," write Independent Institute Research Fellow Benjamin Powell and Adjunct Fellow Art Carden in a new op-ed.

Powell and Carden explain that although 23 states have enacted "anti-gouging" laws, these laws are counterproductive because they discourage merchants from keeping their stores open in the aftermath of natural disasters and from shipping "groceries, water, and emergency supplies to where they are most urgently needed."

Higher prices on commodities in short supply also encourage consumers to purchase only the quantities  necessary to satisfy their most urgently felt needs. Thus, encouraging people to report to the government any instances of "price gouging" -- or worse, having the government prosecute the sellers -- harms the disaster survivors by making goods even more scarce than they already are.

"Similarly, in Texas, according to a spokesman for the state attorney general, they were investigating 'low-end' motels that doubled prices in response to increased demand from Louisiana refugees," Powell and Carden continue. "But these higher hotel prices encourage families to rent one room where they might have rented two, leaving more rooms for other hurricane victims. Letting prices increase is the most effective way to encourage people to conserve the resources that have become scarce because of Katrina.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

By the way, I feel for your situation, ChargerBill.  I guess most people don't get that impression, but I actually work for a living too - I pay my way through (a too-expensive) college, and I haven't taken money from my parents for a few years now (I'm 22).  But you know what they say, "and this too shall pass."

[bull]

Alright, check it out, since it's about time to get realistic about the whole corporate bashing thing: prices are not the economy.   Prices are signals about the economy.   Read up.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1569

Yea, I understand you like to quote opinions from The Independent Institute, however, none of those 'facts' help me stay on top of my bills 2000 miles from the nearest hurricane. I don't live in a bubble. Honestly, don't you think maybe Exxon could stay afloat if they only made, say $3 billion in profits instead of $7.6 billion while the nation gets beyond the current crisis? We are still talking Billions with a 'B' mind you.

Since you're a self-proclaimed libertarian I must assume you follow the libertarian line of keeping govt. out of our lives as much as possible. Since the US govt. is trillions of dollars in debt and should stay out of our lives I think the libertarian party should call for the large private sector businesses (like Exxon) to bail Texas and Louisiana out rather than the taxpayers. They can start by freezing the price of regular unleaded at $2/gal. until the nation gets back on its feet.

[bull]

By the way, I feel for your situation, ChargerBill.   I guess most people don't get that impression, but I actually work for a living too - I pay my way through (a too-expensive) college, and I haven't taken money from my parents for a few years now (I'm 22).   But you know what they say, "and this too shall pass."

I also find it interesting how you attack my ideals and opinions but then immediately start butt-kissing someone who's voicing similar concerns about this nation. It happens fairly often when you and I debate this stuff and I find it rather odd. Are you and your split personality playing good cop/bad cop or what?

[dads_69]

It doesn't matter how many people die, how many small businesses go under, how many families go broke, how many homes are washed away, how many dream cars are sacrificed, so long as Exxon is able to maintain its 7+ billion dollar profits. Right guys?

Holy crap Bull, we finailly come to an agreement somewhere in here. Politics suck no matter how a person looks at them, but I'm agreeing with you on this subject. I live here in Alaska, we get a dividend every October here. Average payout varies. This year its around $840. bucks. I own a house,I have two kids, wife, new truck, a few toys, 20% owner of a bodyshop plus I work a normal 9 to 6 job and a hunger for the big payoff. I'm 37 years old, and wanting my own bodyshop again someday within the next 5 years, I hope I can *afford* it then! Bull, you should read more info. about our Gov. here. Trust me, he won't be re-elected. www.adn.con or www.ktuu.com
Mark

[Afflyer]

I wish Florida would pay me $840 a year.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

By the way, I feel for your situation, ChargerBill.   I guess most people don't get that impression, but I actually work for a living too - I pay my way through (a too-expensive) college, and I haven't taken money from my parents for a few years now (I'm 22).   But you know what they say, "and this too shall pass."

I also find it interesting how you attack my ideals and opinions but then immediately start butt-kissing someone who's voicing similar concerns about this nation. It happens fairly often when you and I debate this stuff and I find it rather odd. Are you and your split personality playing good cop/bad cop or what?

I think you're imagining things.   ChargerBill never said anything about Exxon either; he was talking about hurricanes taking out our overstressed refineries.   And if you had voiced similar concerns about putting food on the table and maybe having to sell your Charger, I'd feel for you too.   Anyhow, the idea that Exxon - which seems to be your whipping boy - and other companies should contribute to the relief effort, even lead it, is just fine by me, and you can voice your concerns in that frame all you want without an argument from my side.   But when you suggest that these companies owe us something for our using their product, or that the government should step in to regulate them, I will disagree.   That's the way it is because those are my stances on the issues.   And they have nothing to do with you.   If I get exasperated and snippy, well, maybe that's my fault, but I don't conscioiusly direct any more to you than others.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the same pattern that you are; the only time I remember you and I disagreeing (aside from the very childish bashing of me you've done in certain threads regarding tomatoes, etc. - to which I have not responded, by the way) was on the Exxon thing, and for the reasons stated above.

I think maybe it's time for you and me to bury whatever hatchet we seem to have, regardless of whether or not we see it the same way.   After all, sooner or later, I will be on "your side" of another controversial issue.

[4402tuff4u]

ChargerBill, you have very legitimate concerns, however we should all take a deep breath and see what this storm will actually do. Things sometimes look bleak and worse than they really are. I agree with your point of view that if the oil companies were to lower their profit margin down to 20% for the good of the country, it would benefit everyone and they would still make money. The truth of the matter is that stock holders will not go for that. Just hang in there and remember that we are not in control of our lives. The big boss upstairs is in charge and he will take care of things.

[Troy]

I am continually amazed that people are whining about Exxon when there are other people in this nation who've been displaced (literally ripped out of their surroundings) twice in the last month due to hurricanes. I paid $2.43 for gas most of this week - only three weeks from the last doomsday reports. So what if gas hits $5.00 for a few weeks, at least the land you live on wasn't totally obliterated along with your cars, house, all of your personal belongings and possibly some family members. At least when you wake up in the morning you'll probably still have a job to go to. Remember that there are people in Florida who are still rebuilding from last year's hurricanes. This is much more than a temporary nuisance in their lives but I guess it's easier to be selfish and take the opportunity to place blame on some imaginary foe. The areas affected by these storms are some of the poorest in the nation so if you think gas and grocery prices going up puts a dent in your budget then try being out of work for a year or so while getting carted around the country in a bus and living in makeshift shelters at sports arenas and churches.

I think Bill is also pointing out that the cost of everything is going up but, again, it's temporary due to the fact that there was just a MAJOR natural disaster and we are staring right into a second one. Blaming corporations for actually staying in business is absolutely rediculous and it's obvious that anything I've written on the subject has been completely ignored. I guess next quarter the "bad guys" will be Home Depot and Lowes for actually making a profit. Bull, those Exxon profit numbers were for the second quarter which ended in June and my guess is that you haven't bothered to see what any of these companies have done since then (or how much, if any, they are contributing to any relief efforts). There was a nice article last week about Saudi Arabia leading OPEC in increasing oil output and even the guys responsible said it will do nothing to help prices since refineries are already maxed out. The oil will just sit in tanks until there is a way to process it.

I'm with Bill on the idea that we are going to be stretched thin. However, we have to do whatever is necessary in times of emergency so it's better to actually do something to make the situation better than to sit around worrying about it. There isn't any amount of planning that could prepare people for what is going on or to find homes and/or shelter for a couple of million people all at once. The nation will be paying for all this and it will take a long time. It's a sad situation but one that we're going to have to deal with in some way or another even if it is difficult.

FYI - the company I'm working for is *doubling* any contribution that we make to the Red Cross (meaning if I donate $10 they'll pitch in $20 for a total donation of $30). If anyone has anything similar I'd like to know.

Troy

[Shakey]

Hey ChargerBill, we haven't heard from you since August 31st, how are things going in TN?

[derailed]

Bill i agree with your concerns about fuel prices but I dont think its going to take this hurricane to raise fuel prices. I think they would have done that on their own in the next couple of years anyways and no i dont call it price gauging. Hell maybe there is a shortage that they have been predicting for the last 20 or so years. And anyways buying a cheap little Honda or Toyota is a great idea, something that maybe you should have thought about a couple of years ago and could have been saving yourself a boat load of money in gas.

[bull]

Screw it. Since the oil companies are run by such saints I will just add a few dollars per gallon to the price of gas and call it a donation. And Vain, stop acting like a poor little rich kid and read the last thread where we got into it over this BS. If you can't see where I'm concerned about my own family well-being and that of my fellow Americans I will rewrite so it's more clear. I understand you feel the need to justify six long years of economics education but your textbook BS doesn't fly with people on the brink of disaster -- people scraping by on $40k a year while CEOs make millions. If Rita does the damage they've predicted in the computer models this nation will be another $10 billion in the hole, or more and the jobless rate will shoot up again. But who cares, right? Those people can take the bus to all those job interviews.

Here's some info that's not in your text book: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P116243.asp

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Or you and this "poor little rich kid" (dunno where you got that) could just NOT bury the hatchet.   Whatever you want.

I just fail to understand how you see my divergent views as tantamount to "not caring" about anything like gas shortages or damage or unemployment, etc.   Up is not down and black is not white; you don't have to explain to anyone, including me, that these are problems.   Where I differ from you is that I believe that the free market devises its own solutions to problems - economies have been literally killed by the "kindness" of government meddling in order to "fix" things (see, Great Depression, modern France, etc.).   Like I said, if I've been exasperated and snippy, I'll try to work on that if you care to meet me halfway and not accuse me baselessly of being an uncaring, spoiled little prick.   'Cuz frankly, I'm not.

I suppose it should make no difference to me, especially if you'll just discount everything in textbooks as automatic BS and resort to whining whenever you sense things aren't going your way.   You may be older than me (a fact which you readily pointed out), but I'm not seeing the maturity.   Feel free to surprise me.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

And as regards your link, dividends from stock and capital reinvestment are certainly in textbooks, which hopefully doesn't make them BS.

The thing is, I'm really not sure what you're trying to say by including the link.  Are you saying that the owners of the company shouldn't get a share of the profits?  That they should get more?  That you deserve some?

[Ponch ®]

  But who cares, right? Those people can take the bus to all those job interviews.

here in L.A. they just finished a kick ass express busline that runs from one end of the Valley to the other on its own "busway".

I'll try to work on that if you care to meet me halfway and not accuse me baselessly of being an uncaring, spoiled little prick.   'Cuz frankly, I'm not.

I can vouch for that. Vainglory is not a spoiled little prick. He's just a plain ol' prick.  

[Todd Wilson]

Everybody is gonna DIE! Its the end of the world. I am going to go out now and bust the windows out of my 71 Charger and get ready to play road warrior!



Todd

[Ponch ®]

Everybody is gonna DIE! Its the end of the world. I am going to go out now and bust the windows out of my 71 Charger and get ready to play road warrior!



Todd

have fun with that. Me? I'm gonna bang every whore i can find.

[derailed]

have fun with that. Me? I'm gonna bang every whore i can find.

thought you had already done that

[Ponch ®]

have fun with that. Me? I'm gonna bang every whore i can find.

thought you had already done that

im going for a second helping....

[ChargerBill]

Well sheesh...where did THIS thread go wrong? I'm not bashing corporate America, I believe in free enterprise! I don't think the world is coming to an end, but ironically the sky IS actually falling in Texas. Look, this is a desperate situation and I'm feeling it (we all are), and many of us (myself included) aren't even in the path of the hurricane or remotely close to it. Many people will die, MILLIONS will be (have been) torn from their homes, children have lost their parents, parents have lost their children, folks in rest homes and those under urgent care are in jeopardy and many have already died in the aftermath of Katrina. The fact that prices will go up is not debateable...it's just a matter of how much. Many people living on the financial edge will be affected by all of this as the cost of living increases. Of course I'm concerned about my immediate needs (as everyone rightfully is) but I am also concerned about what this will do to the economy, national security, our infrastructure, everything... Also, I've been trying to figure out how I can afford to relocate closer to the disaster and volunteer for a couple of weeks. You see, I'm majorly torn over this...I'm realizing that I may not be able to drive half as much as I am used to due to gas prices and I will have to be more selective at the grocery store, but the flip side is that I want to go volunteer and help...it makes very little sense - I just feel like I need to contribute somehow.I can't even bear to see the empty and desperate expressions on the faces of those who lost everything, their stories are heart breaking, their lives are upside down. Gas will hurt me, but it won't kill me, or take away my home or lively-hood. The hurricane victims aren't even thinking about gas...they're thinking about their missing child, how they will eat, where they will lay their head for the night...which puts it all into perspective for me.





BTW: I use my truck to gather firewood, tow a trailer, go camping about 10 times a year, haul our mtn. bikes when we go somewhere for a ride, go to the dumps, haul yard waste....there's a truck in my driveway for a reason. If I were to get rid of it I'd have to have the firewood delivered, sell the trailer, probably go camping a lot less, get a bike rack, subscribe to weekly garbage pick-up and use someone else's truck for yard waste.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Well sheesh...where did THIS thread go wrong?

Did you really think it wouldnt?

[Ponch ®]

Well sheesh...where did THIS thread go wrong?

Did you really think it wouldnt?

2 years ago it was the war.
Last year it was the election.
This year it's the gas prices.

Im as giddy as a schoolgirl to know what people will be fighting about next year.