gremlin update to the update

[70charginglizard]

Went out to start my charger this morning and its being stubborn

I checked for fuel. Its getting fuel to the carb

I checked for spark. It's getting spark out of the coil wire.

I have to wait for assistance to check for spark from the distributer. I don't have anyone to watch for me.

but what it's doing is that the engine is cranking over very good at ignition. starter's ingaging just fine and it acts like it wants to start up but it just isn't 

Do you think it might be a bad distributer?, ECU Ignition Controller?

It was running fine just last week and I haven't touched anything under the hood since that trip.

Any comments?

Symptom- it really wants to light off, Starter is engaging and the motor just about lights up and when I let off the ignition key it just dies.I can get it started but I have to hold the key between the run/start position to keep it running.

I've replaced the ignition switch and the lock cylinder and I'm still having the same problem.

Among other things I've tried-

replaced the started relay, checked all the wiring at the ballist resistor, replaced the ballist resistor, replaced the ECU ignition controller, checked to see if the nutral switch got disconnected. It's firmly connected into the tranny, pulled the starter out and had it tested. They said it's prefectly fine. replaced the started relay.

UPDATE- to the update It's not the ignition or ignition key switch.....It must be something else. Not sure what now

[70charginglizard]

My neighbor finally woke up so we were able to check the spark plug wires boots.

Getting spark on all spark plug wires at the spark plug.

In addtion the pulling the fuel line off at the carb and seeing if it's pumping fuel out the line when turning over(which it was)  I rechecked to see if fuel is squirting down the throoat of the carb and it's coming out there just fine.

Also checked to see if the carb bolts were loose. There on there nice and snug. 



Would a bad ECU Ignition controller/distributer still put out spark to the system like that? If so, why wouldn't it light up?

The distributer has not been bumped or tapped in any way shape of form for when it was running perfectly last weekend so I don't see how it could be timing related.

[472 R/T SE]

Neutral safety switch on the tranny come unplugged?  I had the identical problem last year and that was it.  Replaced the starter relay and that didn't help, tried everything until a buddy got underneath and found the plug off.
Be thankful it happened at home and not in front of a bunch of other folks. 

[70charginglizard]

Nope.

Checked that.

Not the culprit

I even tried adjusting the timing back and forth now just in case and still no lighting off.

again...it really wants to. Starter is engaging and the motor just about lights up and when I let off the ignition key it just dies.

[Harlow]

Could it be a stuck float? My car used to do the same thing...I can't remember if it was a stuck float or not. You could try giving the bowl a tap and see if it fixes it.

[70charginglizard]

Could it be a stuck float? My car used to do the same thing...I can't remember if it was a stuck float or not. You could try giving the bowl a tap and see if it fixes it.

A tap? Where? with what? A screw driver? \

Just FYI It's an Edelbrock 750 cfm carb

BTY- in addition to everything. I did go out and bought some brond new spark plugs and a brand new Ignition controler (ecu) to no avail.

[71ChallengeHer]

Ballast resistor?

[70charginglizard]

Ballast resistor?

I had two extra brand new ballast resistors and voltage regulators and tried swaping both those out this morning and that did do anything to fix the problem

I think it's a bad distributer. I've tried to advance and retard it back and forth from my marked adjustment I put in the side but it still wont light.

It has one of those mopar performance ones (from Summit) in it currently which came with the ecu box so you don't have to run points. I bought a new ecu box today and tried swapping that out too but that wasnt it.
So I guess all I have left is purchasing a new distributer next

I've tried everything I know and eveything you all have sugested and so far nothing. I even tried smackin the carb float area with a plastic screwdriver thinking it might be a stuck float.  and assuring that the idle connection to the tranny didn't fall out...Nope.

I even tried putting brand new clean spark plugs in and tried to spray starting fluid dirrectly down the carb and it still wont light up totally and as soon as I let the key go it just dies each and every time. 

[71ChallengeHer]

ignition switch  

[70charginglizard]

well new distributer is on the way. 4-6 weeks I'll let you all know after that.

so lets tally this up for today...

$109 for new distributer cap and rotor,
$20 for new spark plugs
$55 for new ecu control module.

$184 total. so far

not too bad. Thank goodness I had spare voltage regulator, and balast resistor. 

Hopefully it ends up being this distributer.

[Nacho-RT74]

Bad ECU makes no spark.
Bad ballast and ignition switch , No power to coil at all, neither ECU
Bad distribuitor, depends:
                      damaged rotor or cap, no spark to plugs
                      damaged reluctor or pickup coil, no spark from coil.

did you check compression ? could it be timmimg chain jumped, valves burnt or broken rings

[70charginglizard]

"did you check compression ?"

Not yet but I will tomorrow and let you know.

Give me something else fun to chase after.

Highly doubt my valves are burnt out though. They looked beautiful just a few months ago when I had the heads off being resurfaced and cleaned up when I was chasing down a over heat problem that ended up being a bad radiator-

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,18464.0.html

[70charginglizard]

ignition switch  

and the award goes to you Jackie. 

Thats what it was...pretty sure now.

Now wheres the best place to get a new 70 dodge ignition switch?

Now I get to try to figure out how to get all that wire harness stuff out of the thing.

[Plumcrazy]

ignition switch  

and the award goes to you Jackie. 

Thats what it was...pretty sure now.

Now wheres the best place to get a new 70 dodge ignition switch?

Now I get to try to figure out how to get all that wire harness stuff out of the thing.

The switch is still available from Chrysler.   PN 3747092   Lists for $99

You'll need to remove the steering wheel to change it.  You can cut the old connector off of the wiring harness to make it easier to get the old switch out, but you have to work the new switch's connector down through the column to install it.

[71ChallengeHer]

See , I can help once in awhile

[70charginglizard]

See , I can help once in awhile

Your awesome Jackie.

Thanks you so very much for the sugestion. You truely are an awesome and very smart Mopar chick

and hey, at least now I got a nice pretty new ecu and some new spark plugs in the liz. Should run even nicer now when I get my new ignition switch. I cancelled the new distributer order. I need the money for the new ignition switch.

[70charginglizard]

You'll need to remove the steering wheel to change it.  You can cut the old connector off of the wiring harness to make it easier to get the old switch out, but you have to work the new switch's connector down through the column to install it.

So I was able to get the old ignition switch out without cutting the wire harness so I could plug it back in at try starting the car with it alone (without the key part) and what the ignition switch alone is doing is that it's not holding itself in the "on" running position.
If I hold it there the car remain running but as soon as I let it go it falls back to the off position. So I'm assuming that this was the problem.... basically, something has broken internally on this ignition switch preventing it from holding in that "on" position.

Sound right?

I've seen some new ignition switches on e-bay so I'm on it. Might get a better deal 

[70charginglizard]

Well 41.00 from e-bay for the ignition switch "buy it now" includes shipping ....Not too bad

I decided to buy a new ignition door lock set as well while I'm already in there. This is the ignition lock and door locks together. 47.45 on e-bay buy it now. includes shipping. Not to bad either.

Now all I need to do is wait. 

[Nacho-RT74]

that would it mean you had power on Start position but not on Run position ? we didn't know that ... well at least not me

Symptom- it really wants to light off, Starter is engaging and the motor just about lights up and when I let off the ignition key it just dies.

this wasn't posted earlier when I read... or at least don't remember have read it.

[70charginglizard]

this wasn't posted earlier when I read... or at least don't remember have read it.

see 4th post. 

[UFO]

Glad you found the problem.I would have removed old switch before ordering a new one.It might be just a loose connection or pinched wire.My 69 had a loose connection where the it gets crimped to the plastic pce.

[71ChallengeHer]

Starter is engaging and the motor just about lights up and when I let off the ignition key it just dies.

It was right here.    Ok, Kellly. What's my reward.

[70charginglizard]

Glad you found the problem.I would have removed old switch before ordering a new one.It might be just a loose connection or pinched wire.My 69 had a loose connection where the it gets crimped to the plastic pce.

I did remove it first and connected it back into the car harness and it was reacting the same way out of the steering column as it was when it was in the column....it's not holding itself in the "on" running position. If I hold it in that position, the car remain running but as soon as I let it go it falls back to the off position.

I don't know enough about the internal funtion of the switch or how it works so I'm not going to try to take it apart and figure ut whats wrong with it internally so I just ordered a new one anyway. That way I won't have to rip the steering column apart again sometime later to deal with this same problem again some day.
At least this way with a new ignition switch and ignition key lock I should have no worries about this happening again any time in the near future.

[Nacho-RT74]

here is how it works:

Acc position, uses only black wire
RUN position, uses blue and black wire... blue is the one is not getting feeded the engine.

Yellow is Start position, only feeds starter relay
Brown is Start position, only feeds coil bypassing the ballast at start point to get full power on that moment.

Red, Allways Hot comes from batt.

Notes:
Brown and Blue wires are hot on both RUN and Start position since power returns from ballast in both ways. You can see that whne you are cranking the engine that brakes light dimm out when crank because normally is the blue wire that feed this light. Blue wire is cut at the Start Moment on ignition switch but brown wire feeds back this light when power arrives to ballast and come back throught ballast up to blue wire.

In case of emergency you can make a jumper between black and blue wires down the column and then will feed the Engine.

[70charginglizard]

In case of emergency you can make a jumper between black and blue wires down the column and then will feed the Engine.

emergency? Don't you mean hotwiring...

Interesting bit of factoid there though. Thanks for sharing.

New switch is on the way though. 

[Nacho-RT74]

welll an emeregency like THIS ONE but riding, at night at lonely and dangerous road hehehe.

In fact you can try it right now and will work in case you moved everything on engine ( dist ) and get it tuned again to get everything fine when install the new ignition switch.

You can also feed directly from batt the ballast on "blue side". Makes the same but engine won't shut off when shutt off the ignition switch

[70charginglizard]

Starter is engaging and the motor just about lights up and when I let off the ignition key it just dies.

  It was right here.    Ok, Kellly. What's my reward.

Cards on the way sweeite. 

[70charginglizard]

Gonna have to revolk my congrads to Jackie because it turns out that it's not the ignition switch or lock cylinder. I got the new swtich and the new lock cylinder in today and after installing it I'm having the same problem.

I can actually get the car to start and keep running by holding it in the run position but as soon as I let the key go the car shuts off.

What could possibly be causing this? I'm going crazy trying to figure this one out. 

I looked real good at the lock lever spring assy and it seems fine.

HELP!

Perhaps the Starter clutch slipping? or broken teeth?

[Charger-Bodie]

bad wire from the ballist resister? i had one of the wires come off the risister once and it did the same thing you havfe described, i had to hold the key in just the right position in order for the engine to stay running as well as the starter disengaged.i had to drive 3 blocks like that.

[70charginglizard]

bad wire from the ballist resister? i had one of the wires come off the risister once and it did the same thing you havfe described, i had to hold the key in just the right position in order for the engine to stay running as well as the starter disengaged.i had to drive 3 blocks like that.

It's a brand new engine wire harness

and I checked the connections to the ballist resistor several times as well as the wiring. Even swapped out the extra ballist resistors I had there a couple of times. Still the same problem.

[70charginglizard]

Well I took the starter off and brought it in to have it checked and it's just fine. No problems.
So I bought a new starter relay on the off chance that maybe something going on with it and with the new one still. Same problem.

Now there is something very curious here however.
I've noticed that when I hold the key in the run position to keep the car going that all the gages go dead. That can't be normal can it? More clues to the puzzle???

I'm now dry of any other ideas. 

[Charger-Bodie]

Well I took the starter off and brought it in to have it checked and it's just fine. No problems.
So I bought a new starter relay on the off chance that maybe something going on with it and with the new one still. Same problem.

Now there is something very curious here however.
I've noticed that when I hold the key in the run position to keep the car going that all the gages go dead. That can't be normal can it? More clues to the puzzle???

I'm now dry of any other ideas. 

it is normal for everything else to go away when in the start pos.  its something in the wiring for the ignition system or a component of the ignition ! try running a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ballast res. and hit the key

[70charginglizard]

it is normal for everything else to go away when in the start pos.  its something in the wiring for the ignition system or a component of the ignition ! try running a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ballast res. and hit the key

What gage wire? and which connection side of the ballast res? does it matter?

[Nacho-RT74]

that was I said before

from batt to ballast on blue wire side...

10-12 gauge is enough. In fact 14 will be too

Note... don't unplug the blue wire, just try to insert the wire on plug itself on back side, rememeber blue wire will keep feeding ECU module.

[70charginglizard]

that was I said before

from batt to ballast on blue wire side...

10-12 gauge is enough. In fact 14 will be too

Note... don't unplug the blue wire, just try to insert the wire on plug itself on back side, rememeber blue wire will keep feeding ECU module.

Nice little cheating by pass Nacho. Thanks
That works. The car starts, runs and drives but I have to pull the by pass wire off to get it to shut off. interesting.

I guess you had me do that to confirm it's something in the wiring. Now what?

Pretty cool trick though. I've never done that before. At least I can make it to the shows but I'm gonna look pretty gooffy pulling a by pass wire when I get there. lol

[Nacho-RT74]

OK the problem you have is blue wire is not being feeded. So now we need to surround where is the problem.

Blue wire runs directly from ignition switch up to bulkhead and then engine harness so you can get fail on plugs just down the column and on bulkhead.

Also does have a splice ( at least on 3rd gen ) between column and bulkhead to feed another sources like brake light on cluster, seatbelt buzzer and light, power window relay etc... This splice runs up to fuse box before feed the other sources, but engine is without fuse.

So we can check if you have BRAKES LIGHT on RUN position or not. If you don't then problem is before bulkhead ( unless fuse was blowed ). If you do have brakes light on cluster then problem is at bulkhead.Probably female terminal out of cavity on a bad plugging job. Will make a diagram.

P.S.: unless new switch is also damaged  . you could try also jump between black and blue wire down the column ( feed engine with accesories source ) to discard again switch

[Nacho-RT74]

here is diagram

[70charginglizard]

Thanks Nacho,
What would I do without your guys help around here.
Really appreciate the feedback.
I'll start chasing into the wiring at the bulkhead and ignition plug connector today sometime and check that tail light thing too.
Thanks for showing me the by pass thing. I always wondered how to do that. I may just leave the line on there with a disconnection joint anyway in case this ever happens again. Be nice if I could run a switch into the car from that somehow...got anymore diagrams...lol

on and BTY- I do have dash Brake light shining bright red on run position.

[Nacho-RT74]

I can make any diagrams you want, I make them at the moment.

IF 2nd gen is wired the same that 3rd gen, what mostly sure it is, then if you have the cluster brake light at RUN position problem should it be at bulkhead, unless wire is broken between splice and bulkhead, or inside the engine harness.

whats your problem on tail lights?

[71ChallengeHer]

Do I have to send the card back.

[70charginglizard]

I can make any diagrams you want, I make them at the moment.

IF 2nd gen is wired the same that 3rd gen, what mostly sure it is, then if you have the cluster brake light at RUN position problem should it be at bulkhead, unless wire is broken between splice and bulkhead, or inside the engine harness.

whats your problem on tail lights?

Nacho is the man of the hour.....Sucess buddy It was the bulkhead electrical connection. Must have built up some corrosion or something. I jusrked it around a bit and presto.

PROBLEM SOLVED. 

I'm gonna definately get in there real good next weekend and clean off the contact on the dash side of that real good. For now. It's all back to working properly.

Thanks a million Nacho. yous da man!

[70charginglizard]

Do I have to send the card back.

You were pretty damn close to the problem Jackie so you can consider that one a very close 2nd. 

[Charger-Bodie]

I can make any diagrams you want, I make them at the moment.

IF 2nd gen is wired the same that 3rd gen, what mostly sure it is, then if you have the cluster brake light at RUN position problem should it be at bulkhead, unless wire is broken between splice and bulkhead, or inside the engine harness.

whats your problem on tail lights?

Nacho is the man of the hour.....Sucess buddy It was the bulkhead electrical connection. Must have built up some corrosion or something. I jusrked it around a bit and presto.

PROBLEM SOLVED. 

I'm gonna definately get in there real good next weekend and clean off the contact on the dash side of that real good. For now. It's all back to working properly.

Thanks a million Nacho. yous da man!

yeah Nacho YOU single handedly solved it i sure am glad i said to run a jumper wire and basiclly get zero cred.  ill just avoid youre posts from now on!

P.S. no offense toward you Nacho!

[70charginglizard]

Sorry about that 1hot68. I though that 1st post about the jumper was from Nacho but now I see it was actually you. 

Yos da man too. It was actually the combination of all of you who helped me pull this to it's wonderful conclusion. Success

Thanks Guys. and Jackie

[Charger-Bodie]

Well I took the starter off and brought it in to have it checked and it's just fine. No problems.
So I bought a new starter relay on the off chance that maybe something going on with it and with the new one still. Same problem.

Now there is something very curious here however.
I've noticed that when I hold the key in the run position to keep the car going that all the gages go dead. That can't be normal can it? More clues to the puzzle???

I'm now dry of any other ideas. 

it is normal for everything else to go away when in the start pos.  its something in the wiring for the ignition system or a component of the ignition ! try running a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ballast res. and hit the key

this is the post that said to try a jumper wire .......try giving ctredit where credit is due , people are alot more apt to help then!!

P.S. im glad you got youre car running again !!

[Nacho-RT74]

great you got it !!!!

PS.: I noticed that is tipical that on hard moments we are blocked and don't pay 100% attention to all instructions specially generic ones, so maybe that was the missunderstood ?

[70charginglizard]

Well I took the starter off and brought it in to have it checked and it's just fine. No problems.
So I bought a new starter relay on the off chance that maybe something going on with it and with the new one still. Same problem.

Now there is something very curious here however.
I've noticed that when I hold the key in the run position to keep the car going that all the gages go dead. That can't be normal can it? More clues to the puzzle???

I'm now dry of any other ideas. 

it is normal for everything else to go away when in the start pos.  its something in the wiring for the ignition system or a component of the ignition ! try running a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ballast res. and hit the key

this is the post that said to try a jumper wire .......try giving ctredit where credit is due , people are alot more apt to help then!!

P.S. im glad you got youre car running again !!

again,
I sincerely appologise for not picking up on that. There was just to many things going thru my head trying to get this thing working. I'm sure you know how it is when one of the most favorite things in your life is sick and in need of attention. Everything else in the brain goes blank. In this case the nogin wasn't recognizing the actual person who started the heads up.

Thanks again 1hot68.

[Charger-Bodie]

Well I took the starter off and brought it in to have it checked and it's just fine. No problems.
So I bought a new starter relay on the off chance that maybe something going on with it and with the new one still. Same problem.

Now there is something very curious here however.
I've noticed that when I hold the key in the run position to keep the car going that all the gages go dead. That can't be normal can it? More clues to the puzzle???

I'm now dry of any other ideas. 

it is normal for everything else to go away when in the start pos.  its something in the wiring for the ignition system or a component of the ignition ! try running a jumper wire from the battery positive to the ballast res. and hit the key

this is the post that said to try a jumper wire .......try giving ctredit where credit is due , people are alot more apt to help then!!

P.S. im glad you got youre car running again !!

again,
I sincerely appologise for not picking up on that. There was just to many things going thru my head trying to get this thing working. I'm sure you know how it is when one of the most favorite things in your life is sick and in need of attention. Everything else in the brain goes blank. In this case the nogin wasn't recognizing the actual person who started the heads up.

Thanks again 1hot68.

ah forget it , i just like to help if i can , it makes me feel good.

[bull]

Do I have to send the card back.

Just send it to Nacho.

[Nacho-RT74]

LOL