holley 750 double pumper 440 auto

[69chargerR/T]

I have 69 charger 440 auto thinking of getting rid of 770 avenger and going with 750 DP. I have heard you should not  use vacuum secondary on an automatic car, is this true. I don't care about fuel mileage car is street driver, but I would like more performance than what I get with the avenger.  I do like to lay in to this car once and a while, and I think with the mechanical secondaries I would get better throttle response and more power. My 440 is 30 over trw forged pistons,906 stock heads,eddy rpm manifold,hooker 1 7/8 comp headers,flowmaster 3" exhasut,TCI street fighter trans,TCI breakaway 11" converter( they say it is 1000rpm more than stock) 8 3/4 3.91 sure-grip. Now cam I know its an mp cam not sure what one I think it is the 284dur. 484lift it may be 280dur. 474lift when I freshened up the motor the cam was like new I couldn't find any #s on cam so I just put it back in. So is a 750DP going to be to much for it, if not should I make sure I get one with 4 corner idle screws. Also any suggestions on a cam change I don't like cam and have and  read no buddy likes mp cams  for some reason, car does have power brakes. My converter, TCI says the stall is 1000rpm more than stock does anyone know what the stall speed would be.I also heard no one likes avenger carbs. Would like anyones help thanks, Alan   


     PS, Ron, you gave me some good info on mufflers I have some ultra flows coming,what do you think of this combo how much HP do you think it will make,any changes you would make.

[jg68]

I have 69 charger 440 auto thinking of getting rid of 770 avenger and going with 750 DP. I have heard you should not  use vacuum secondary on an automatic car, is this true. I don't care about fuel mileage car is street driver, but I would like more performance than what I get with the avenger.  I do like to lay in to this car once and a while, and I think with the mechanical secondaries I would get better throttle response and more power. My 440 is 30 over trw forged pistons,906 stock heads,eddy rpm manifold,hooker 1 7/8 comp headers,flowmaster 3" exhasut,TCI street fighter trans,TCI breakaway 11" converter( they say it is 1000rpm more than stock) 8 3/4 3.91 sure-grip. Now cam I know its an mp cam not sure what one I think it is the 284dur. 484lift it may be 280dur. 474lift when I freshened up the motor the cam was like new I couldn't find any #s on cam so I just put it back in. So is a 750DP going to be to much for it, if not should I make sure I get one with 4 corner idle screws. Also any suggestions on a cam change I don't like cam and have and  read no buddy likes mp cams  for some reason, car does have power brakes. My converter, TCI says the stall is 1000rpm more than stock does anyone know what the stall speed would be.I also heard no one likes avenger carbs. Would like anyones help thanks, Alan   


     PS, Ron, you gave me some good info on mufflers I have some ultra flows coming,what do you think of this combo how much HP do you think it will make,any changes you would make.

I'll tell you this, if your running the 2355 pistons, i would drop on an 850 Mighty Demon dp, i met a guy that ran one on his .509 cammed 440 in a 68 Coronet, stock converter, 3.91s, stickys, SDom. intake, with very slow 60fts, he pulled off back to back 12.56s & 113 mph, i was VERY impressed to say the least

Another one to consider would be the 850 PF, but if you step up on the converter & cam down the road, the 850 Mighty Demon will shine, the ONLY reason i let my 750 Demon go is to fund my TR, i think he ended up with 86/94 jets PV up front, i'm sure Ron won't like my reply

The 850 Demon will flow over 900 CFM & that 440 will take every bit of it, the reason i say "mighty" is it has screw in bleeds & idle feed restrictors, so its fully adjustable, the road & speed Demons aren't

[firefighter3931]

Good call on the mufflers   

The holley 750dp will be perfect on that combo....not too big, not too small. Another option i like better are the Proform double pumpers.....basicly an HP Holley carb w/o the big price tag  These have radiused venturies, adjustable bleeds, downleg boosters, billet metering/base plates and 4 corner idle. The proform 750dp flows 830cfm but has a smaller diameter baseplate....this helps to increase signal to the booster and sharpen up the throttle response.

I'd swap that cam out in a heartbeat.....either an Engle or VooDoo cam would idle better, make more engine vacuum for your brake booster and be easy to tune.

Engle k56 or Voodoo 60303 would be my choice.


Power output largely depends on cylinder head flow but even with stock heads this combo should make 425Hp easy and 500ftlbs of torque.




Ron

[darrin75]

I have that carb, it seems great when tuned correctly.. 

[69chargerR/T]

Not sure what # the pistons are I know they are flat tops,do you know what comp. would be with sock 906's. and does anyone know what  stock stall speed is, my converter should be 1000rpm more than sock. Ron, I don't think I have heard  of engle cams who sells them. I know  summit sells voodoo cams.Also would HP go up a lot with eddy rpm heads and what cc  the 84cc or the 88cc should I use. thanks for the help guys 

[Purple440]

Does double pumper mean two accelerator pumps?

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I have always understood differently that a vac sec carb is better suited to an automatic where a DP is suited for a manual trans

I have Engle's K56 cam in my 440 and I love it.



http://www.englecams.com/index.php

[RECHRGD]

I've got almost the same combo as you.  I went from a Holley 750 vac. secondary to the double pumper and the difference was like night and day.  It felt like I bolted on 25+ HP and works great with the RPM intake.  Although the DPs are not recommended for automatic cars (even says so on the box) I have not seen a down side to it.  You just can't floor it fast from a dead stop.  No big deal.  I'm going to have to give that engle cam along with some new heads a try hear one of these days.        Bob

[69chargerR/T]

I've got almost the same combo as you.  I went from a Holley 750 vac. secondary to the double pumper and the difference was like night and day.  It felt like I bolted on 25+ HP and works great with the RPM intake.  Although the DPs are not recommended for automatic cars (even says so on the box) I have not seen a down side to it.  You just can't floor it fast from a dead stop.  No big deal.  I'm going to have to give that engle cam along with some new heads a try hear one of these days.        Bob

Bob, did you have to do any tuning to carb. or did it run good right out of the box. does it have 4 corner idle screws? I was looking at the #4779 carb is that what you have? You say you can't floor it fast from a dead stop,does it stumble or back fire or pop in carb? if so can't carb be tuned to stop this? How bad is it from dead stop. I have this problem with my 770 avenger put in bigger discharge nozzle and it got a little better. I have heard that the mp cam I have with the high duration could be causing a off idle lean condition, thats why I have this problem  and thats why i am looking to change cam and carb. Anyone have any thoughts on this. thanks, Alan

[firefighter3931]

Not sure what # the pistons are I know they are flat tops,do you know what comp. would be with sock 906's. and does anyone know what  stock stall speed is, my converter should be 1000rpm more than sock. Ron, I don't think I have heard  of engle cams who sells them. I know  summit sells voodoo cams.Also would HP go up a lot with eddy rpm heads and what cc  the 84cc or the 88cc should I use. thanks for the help guys 

Engle sells their own cams....you have to deal with them directly. 

The RPM heads are good for at least 50hp right off the bat....more with porting and a bigger cam that can take advantge of the higher flow at increased valve lift. 


The 84cc closed chamber heads are what you want with a flat top piston. 440 Source will be coming out with a head early next year that is supposed to be equivelant to the rpm head for $900 a pair. These will also have straight plugs which makes them more user friendly with most off the shelf headers (other than TTI). I wwould be tempted to wait for the 440 source head....especially if my exhaust system was built around an oem iron head with straight plugs. 



Ron

[69chargerR/T]

Does double pumper mean two accelerator pumps?

Purple440, yes double pumper means two accelerator pumps. Alan

[firefighter3931]

I've got almost the same combo as you.  I went from a Holley 750 vac. secondary to the double pumper and the difference was like night and day.  It felt like I bolted on 25+ HP and works great with the RPM intake.  Although the DPs are not recommended for automatic cars (even says so on the box) I have not seen a down side to it.  You just can't floor it fast from a dead stop.  No big deal.  I'm going to have to give that engle cam along with some new heads a try hear one of these days.        Bob

A well tuned double pumper is very responsive on the street...even with an auto trans. The key is to not go too big when sizing the carb....velocity is the key to sharp throttle response. 


Ron

[69chargerR/T]

Not sure what # the pistons are I know they are flat tops,do you know what comp. would be with sock 906's. and does anyone know what  stock stall speed is, my converter should be 1000rpm more than sock. Ron, I don't think I have heard  of engle cams who sells them. I know  summit sells voodoo cams.Also would HP go up a lot with eddy rpm heads and what cc  the 84cc or the 88cc should I use. thanks for the help guys 

Engle sells their own cams....you have to deal with them directly. 

The RPM heads are good for at least 50hp right off the bat....more with porting and a bigger cam that can take advantge of the higher flow at increased valve lift. 


The 84cc closed chamber heads are what you want with a flat top piston. 440 Source will be coming out with a head early next year that is supposed to be equivelant to the rpm head for $900 a pair. These will also have straight plugs which makes them more user friendly with most off the shelf headers (other than TTI). I wwould be tempted to wait for the 440 source head....especially if my exhaust system was built around an oem iron head with straight plugs. 



Ron

     Ron, I think I will be changing heads in the future ( I was looking at the 440 source heads good price ) !! Will the 750DP and the cams you suggested still be good  with the head up grade, or will I need to go bigger.     Thanks, Alan



     PS: don't mean to put you on the spot but, if you had to chose between the Engle and the voodoo what one would you chose. I see the Engle has a little more  intake lift  and a little less duration, but they do look almost the same.      


   

[firefighter3931]

     Ron, I think I will be changing heads in the future ( I was looking at the 440 source heads good price ) !! Will the 750DP and the cams you suggested still be good  with the head up grade, or will I need to go bigger.     Thanks, Alan



     PS: don't mean to put you on the spot but, if you had to chose between the Engle and the voodoo what one would you chose. I see the Engle has a little more  intake lift  and a little less duration, but they do look almost the same.      


   

Alan,

All the parts will transfer over should you decide to upgrade the heads later....no worries there. You don't necessarily have to upsize the cam with the head swap....but it will make more power if you do. Still, lots of folks run hydraulic cams with a high flow aluminum head and have outstanding results. 

Honestly, those cams are very close in terms of agressiveness and high lift "area" so there's no bad choice. The VooDoo split pattern would be a little better with your stock heads though, inmo. Your call....both are sized "right" for the build. 



Ron

[RECHRGD]

I've got almost the same combo as you. I went from a Holley 750 vac. secondary to the double pumper and the difference was like night and day. It felt like I bolted on 25+ HP and works great with the RPM intake. Although the DPs are not recommended for automatic cars (even says so on the box) I have not seen a down side to it. You just can't floor it fast from a dead stop. No big deal. I'm going to have to give that engle cam along with some new heads a try hear one of these days. Bob

Bob, did you have to do any tuning to carb. or did it run good right out of the box. does it have 4 corner idle screws? I was looking at the #4779 carb is that what you have? You say you can't floor it fast from a dead stop,does it stumble or back fire or pop in carb? if so can't carb be tuned to stop this? How bad is it from dead stop. I have this problem with my 770 avenger put in bigger discharge nozzle and it got a little better. I have heard that the mp cam I have with the high duration could be causing a off idle lean condition, thats why I have this problem and thats why i am looking to change cam and carb. Anyone have any thoughts on this. thanks, Alan

Alan, yes my carb is the 4779.  It's been on the car since 2001 with no problems at all.  Chryco did wave his hands over it once at a DC.COM meet a few years back though.  I do remember that it was too rich for my combo out of the box and I ended up with #68 jets up front and #72 in the back.  I had it chassis dynoed and they inlarged (drilled) the shooters a tad.  I'm not really up on the tuning, but if you nail the gas from a dead stop it will just bog down and stop.  Maybe a higher stall converter would help but I haven't really looked at that as a big problem.  If your looking for a drag strip type start, you'll be braking the car and bringing up the rpms the your stall before you take off anyway.  Bob

[69chargerR/T]

     Ron, I think I will be changing heads in the future ( I was looking at the 440 source heads good price ) !! Will the 750DP and the cams you suggested still be good  with the head up grade, or will I need to go bigger.     Thanks, Alan



     PS: don't mean to put you on the spot but, if you had to chose between the Engle and the voodoo what one would you chose. I see the Engle has a little more  intake lift  and a little less duration, but they do look almost the same.      


   

Alan,

All the parts will transfer over should you decide to upgrade the heads later....no worries there. You don't necessarily have to upsize the cam with the head swap....but it will make more power if you do. Still, lots of folks run hydraulic cams with a high flow aluminum head and have outstanding results. 

Honestly, those cams are very close in terms of agressiveness and high lift "area" so there's no bad choice. The VooDoo split pattern would be a little better with your stock heads though, inmo. Your call....both are sized "right" for the build. 



Ron

     
     Ron, thanks a lot for all your help and info!! I think I am going to go with the voodoo #60303 and holley 750DP I like the the proform too cause of all the tuning you can do but, I live in the northeast and on nice days in the winter I do like to drive my car and with out a choke car is very hard to start. I don't know if thats a good reason not to get one or not though ? I am hoping the holley with some tuning or if I am lucky right out of the box will run good  I am pretty good at tuning holley carbs, and I'm sure I can get help on this forum you guys on this forum have been very helpful!!!! 

        Sorry to ask so many questions but, I have two more 1. Do you have an idea how much comp. I have with flat top pistons and stock 906's   2. Do you have an idea what my stall speed is with my converter, TCI says it is 1000 RPM more than stock, what is stock stall speed.


                                thanks, Alan

            PS: this is a great forum, very informative, thanks guys

       




 

[69chargerR/T]

I've got almost the same combo as you. I went from a Holley 750 vac. secondary to the double pumper and the difference was like night and day. It felt like I bolted on 25+ HP and works great with the RPM intake. Although the DPs are not recommended for automatic cars (even says so on the box) I have not seen a down side to it. You just can't floor it fast from a dead stop. No big deal. I'm going to have to give that engle cam along with some new heads a try hear one of these days. Bob

Bob, did you have to do any tuning to carb. or did it run good right out of the box. does it have 4 corner idle screws? I was looking at the #4779 carb is that what you have? You say you can't floor it fast from a dead stop,does it stumble or back fire or pop in carb? if so can't carb be tuned to stop this? How bad is it from dead stop. I have this problem with my 770 avenger put in bigger discharge nozzle and it got a little better. I have heard that the mp cam I have with the high duration could be causing a off idle lean condition, thats why I have this problem and thats why i am looking to change cam and carb. Anyone have any thoughts on this. thanks, Alan

Alan, yes my carb is the 4779.  It's been on the car since 2001 with no problems at all.  Chryco did wave his hands over it once at a DC.COM meet a few years back though.  I do remember that it was too rich for my combo out of the box and I ended up with #68 jets up front and #72 in the back.  I had it chassis dynoed and they inlarged (drilled) the shooters a tad.  I'm not really up on the tuning, but if you nail the gas from a dead stop it will just bog down and stop.  Maybe a higher stall converter would help but I haven't really looked at that as a big problem.  If your looking for a drag strip type start, you'll be braking the car and bringing up the rpms the your stall before you take off anyway.  Bob

         Bob, thanks for the info that helps. I'm going to get the same carb I'm sure I will have to do some tuning, nice to know what jets you are running if I have to make jet changes gives me a place to start.   

                                                                                    thanks, Alan




                      PS: Is that your charger in pic ? very nice !!!!   

[firefighter3931]

     
      I live in the northeast and on nice days in the winter I do like to drive my car and with out a choke car is very hard to start. I don't know if thats a good reason not to get one or not though ? I am hoping the holley with some tuning or if I am lucky right out of the box will run good  I am pretty good at tuning holley carbs, and I'm sure I can get help on this forum you guys on this forum have been very helpful!!!! 

        Sorry to ask so many questions but, I have two more 1. Do you have an idea how much comp. I have with flat top pistons and stock 906's   2. Do you have an idea what my stall speed is with my converter, TCI says it is 1000 RPM more than stock, what is stock stall speed.


                                thanks, Alan

            PS: this is a great forum, very informative, thanks guys

       

Alan, the 750dper will be fine....the fuel curve on the double pumper series carbs is better suited (as compared to a vac secondary) to a performance build. You might have to adjust the jetting but that's it other than float, idle mixture and idle speed adjustment. I suggested the proform because of it's better main body design and increased tunability with the idle/high speed air bleeds. These are nice features to have when you run a really hot street/strip combo. Your's won't fall into this category at the present time so the 750dp should work like a charm. 

Compression with the 2355 pistons and open chamber heads and .040 compressed Felpro gasket usually falls in the 9.3-9.5:1 range. If the block has been decked and the heads milled then obviously this will change somewhat.

If the converter is advertised at 1000 over stock then it should be in the 2500-2800rpm range or thereabouts. Converter stall speed is allways advertised as being within a range because the actual stall depends on the amount of torque the engine is producing. A 10in converter rated at 3000 stall behind a 440 will stall much higher behind a 500ci stroker, for example. That converter will be fine with the VooDoo cam.....no worries there. I had a similar Crower cam in my old 440 (226/236) and it really liked a 2500 rpm stall speed.....which is what i had in the car at the time. 



Ron

[69chargerR/T]

     
      I live in the northeast and on nice days in the winter I do like to drive my car and with out a choke car is very hard to start. I don't know if thats a good reason not to get one or not though ? I am hoping the holley with some tuning or if I am lucky right out of the box will run good  I am pretty good at tuning holley carbs, and I'm sure I can get help on this forum you guys on this forum have been very helpful!!!! 

        Sorry to ask so many questions but, I have two more 1. Do you have an idea how much comp. I have with flat top pistons and stock 906's   2. Do you have an idea what my stall speed is with my converter, TCI says it is 1000 RPM more than stock, what is stock stall speed.


                                thanks, Alan

            PS: this is a great forum, very informative, thanks guys

       

Alan, the 750dper will be fine....the fuel curve on the double pumper series carbs is better suited (as compared to a vac secondary) to a performance build. You might have to adjust the jetting but that's it other than float, idle mixture and idle speed adjustment. I suggested the proform because of it's better main body design and increased tunability with the idle/high speed air bleeds. These are nice features to have when you run a really hot street/strip combo. Your's won't fall into this category at the present time so the 750dp should work like a charm. 

Compression with the 2355 pistons and open chamber heads and .040 compressed Felpro gasket usually falls in the 9.3-9.5:1 range. If the block has been decked and the heads milled then obviously this will change somewhat.

If the converter is advertised at 1000 over stock then it should be in the 2500-2800rpm range or thereabouts. Converter stall speed is allways advertised as being within a range because the actual stall depends on the amount of torque the engine is producing. A 10in converter rated at 3000 stall behind a 440 will stall much higher behind a 500ci stroker, for example. That converter will be fine with the VooDoo cam.....no worries there. I had a similar Crower cam in my old 440 (226/236) and it really liked a 2500 rpm stall speed.....which is what i had in the car at the time. 



Ron

         Ron, thanks again, I will let you know how this carb and cam change goes. I think this will really wake my car up  ,

                                                  thanks, Alan

             

[firefighter3931]

Alan, you're welcome. 

Have a look at this thread for some info on engine lube :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31561.0.html

When you get it fired up and broken in ; try 15* initial timing and 36-38 total in at 2800-3000.....you'll be pleasantly surprised 




Ron

[69chargerR/T]

Alan, you're welcome. 

Have a look at this thread for some info on engine lube :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31561.0.html

When you get it fired up and broken in ; try 15* initial timing and 36-38 total in at 2800-3000.....you'll be pleasantly surprised 




Ron




          Ron, I have been running the rotella 15/40 but I didn't know they changed that oil to !! If I can only get the newer rotella I have to use an additive also ? So if I can't get the additive and run royal purple say 20/50 I'm ok ? Years ago I use to run valvoline 20/50 racing oil is this oil ok to run ? Are you saying as long as it says racing oil on the bottle I'm ok with out the additive ? I'm sure valvoline racing oil is cheaper than royal purple. If I have to run something like royal purple I will, it may cost me 50.00  to change the oil but thats cheaper than redoing my motor !!!!!

                                               
                                                    what do you think, Alan

                                                             







           

[firefighter3931]

  Ron, I have been running the rotella 15/40 but I didn't know they changed that oil to !! If I can only get the newer rotella I have to use an additive also ? So if I can't get the additive and run royal purple say 20/50 I'm ok ? Years ago I use to run valvoline 20/50 racing oil is this oil ok to run ? Are you saying as long as it says racing oil on the bottle I'm ok with out the additive ? I'm sure valvoline racing oil is cheaper than royal purple. If I have to run something like royal purple I will, it may cost me 50.00  to change the oil but thats cheaper than redoing my motor !!!!!

                                               
                                                    what do you think, Alan

                                                             

The Rotella is still good but you need to run the EOS as well to boost up the EP package.  Royal purple racing 20/50 is excellent but also expensive !  Valvoline VR-1 used to be really good but now it's only average. The EPA has really thrown a monkey wrench into our spokes.....the oil situation is pitiful. 

The Rotella/EOS brew is a reliable & economical solution to a serious problem. You could use the valvoline racing 20/50 but i would still use the EOS with it. At this point there aren't too many oils i would trust as a stand alone product....Royal Purple Racing excluded. 


Protect your engine ! 



Ron

[69chargerR/T]

  Ron, I have been running the rotella 15/40 but I didn't know they changed that oil to !! If I can only get the newer rotella I have to use an additive also ? So if I can't get the additive and run royal purple say 20/50 I'm ok ? Years ago I use to run valvoline 20/50 racing oil is this oil ok to run ? Are you saying as long as it says racing oil on the bottle I'm ok with out the additive ? I'm sure valvoline racing oil is cheaper than royal purple. If I have to run something like royal purple I will, it may cost me 50.00  to change the oil but thats cheaper than redoing my motor !!!!!

                                               
                                                    what do you think, Alan

                                                             

The Rotella is still good but you need to run the EOS as well to boost up the EP package.  Royal purple racing 20/50 is excellent but also expensive !  Valvoline VR-1 used to be really good but now it's only average. The EPA has really thrown a monkey wrench into our spokes.....the oil situation is pitiful. 

The Rotella/EOS brew is a reliable & economical solution to a serious problem. You could use the valvoline racing 20/50 but i would still use the EOS with it. At this point there aren't too many oils i would trust as a stand alone product....Royal Purple Racing excluded. 


Protect your engine ! 



Ron

             





                     Ron, thanks again good oil info now I know how to protect my my engine


                                                                                                           Alan




 

[69chargerR/T]

    Ron, I was checking out the voodoo 60303 cam at summit and just noticed it has 3 bolts, My timing chain is 1 bolt,I went to check out timing chains with 3 bolts they have so many. Who makes a good one for street driver that doesn't cost too much $$$$ Also on the oil thing again, you say royal purple racing oil is the only oil you would use with out an additive, do you mean the the royal purple XRP racing oil at 12.95 a quart. That is big $$$$ !! What about the royal purple 20/50 that is 6.95 a quart not good ? As for the additive I assume that EOS means engine oil supplement, some one said they are changing that I'm going to call my local GM dealer tomorrow what do I ask for.


                                                                                           thanks,Alan

   

[firefighter3931]

Alan, Comp makes a nice reliable timing set that won't break the bank :

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D2109&autoview=sku


Ya, the expensive $13.00 a quart stuff is loaded with Zn/Phos but you pay for that protection.  You can get the same level of protection for a fraction of the cost. You could stll ue the $7.00 a quart stuff but i would still add the EOS with it. 



Ron

[Runner]

its been a little while  but i believe that 1100 ppm of zinc is what your after in an oil. the more you have,  the longer the oil will still protect, its not "better" protection.  the amount of zinc goes down as the oil is contaminated.


    i use valvoline 20w-50 racing with a bottle of eos at every oil.  i stay clear of synthetics sence my machinest and my cam supplier told me to(with the exception of rearends and some trannys)