Dual Plane or Single Plane

[Musicman]

When building a mildly aggressive 440, or even a mild stroker, intended primarily for Street applications, is there any real advantage in choosing a Dual Plane intake like the Performer RPM over a Single Plane design like the Street Dominator, or are we just splitting hairs here?

Mike

[69charger2002]

i think personally for mainly street/preformance applications the edelbrock performer RPM dual plane cannot be beat
trav

[Ghoste]

No hair splitting really.   As a general rule, dual planes make more torque at a lower rpm and single planes make more horsepower at a higher rpm.  Street cars, especially heavy ones like Chargers, like low rpm torque.  Although the street dom is a great manifold, the Performer RPM seems to do an excellent job of keeping the lower torque of the dual plane and getting the high end charge of a single.

[Musicman]

I understand the common knowledge benefits of dual plane & single plane intakes, but it's also common knowledge that the 440 is already brimming with torque, so do you really need the extra boost of a dual plane intake, with an engine that is probably running on a <.550 lift cam with a >110 LSA... or should you focus on your higher rpm's (4000 to 6000) instead, where the engine may actually be weaker? It's an age old question I'm sure...  Common sense would suggest that a Dual Plane intake is the best overall compromise in a less than High Performance application, but given the powerful nature of the 440 I sometimes have to wonder. I guess I'm just fishing for experienced opinions here... There is a vast, and highly improved array of engine build products available today, compared to what was available to the common market 30 years ago... so every once in a while, you just have to sit down and ask yourself... Have the rules changed here, do I need to rethink this?

Mike 

[firefighter3931]

Your answer is here:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31731.0.html



Ron

[Musicman]

Your answer is here:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31731.0.html

Ron

So for a street runner these days, with a wide selection of modern cams, rotating assemblies, and heads to choose from, it really is more or less build specific. I ask because I have a 1976 440 block with 452 heads in my shop waiting to be rebuilt and I don't plan on rebuilding it twice. I'm still deciding just what to do with it in terms of performance. I guess what it really comes down to is Bang verses Buck. However, it only seems logical to insure that the rotating assembly is built strong right from the beginning... After all, most of the bolt on top end stuff can be upgraded at anytime without to much trouble... unlike the rotating assembly which requires you to pull the engine again if you decide to upgrade later.

Speaking of intakes... I have access to a set of Long Cross Ram intakes that I'd just love use, but I don't think that they would fit under the hood of my 1st Gen... To bad though... they would definitely win the Cool Factor in a rebuild.

So with that said... any experienced comments on the subject of Bang verses Buck... I'm all ears?

[firefighter3931]

So with that said... any experienced comments on the subject of Bang verses Buck... I'm all ears?

Mike, it really depends on your budget and how much power you want to make. I like a closed chamber zero deck build with flat top pistons and aluminum heads with 10.5:1 compression. This will run easily on pump gas with no detonation issues. Then you cam accordingly to the rest of the car's build and match the stall speed, gearing, intake, carb and exhaust.

The 76 Block is descent for rebuilding but it is a cast crank engine so the rotating assembly is good for a mild build but i would upgrade if you're looking for more than say 475hp. With the relatively cheap cost of building a stroker this seems like a no brainer. I have a spare '75 block that i will be doing the same thing with and transferring the top end of my 446 over to.....sometime in the future.

If you're looking for just a cruiser type low buck build then you could just use the cast crank and stock rods with a set of speedpro 6-pack pistons with the 452 heads and a mild hydraulic cam.



Ron

[Musicman]

The 76 Block is descent for rebuilding but it is a cast crank engine so the rotating assembly is good for a mild build but i would upgrade if you're looking for more than say 475hp. With the relatively cheap cost of building a stroker this seems like a no brainer.

Ron, thanks for the input, much appreciated! As I mentioned earlier, I really want to get the bottom end right the first time, so I have been giving serious consideration to stroking this engine. Like you said... stroker kits are so cheap these days, that's it's almost stupid not too. It would be an extravagance yes, but an affordable one none the less. The only reason I haven't already made the final decision to do so, is the added cost of new heads... ouch!

Mike

[aifilaw]

yeah, having a baseline foundation in the heads is as important as the rotating assembly in my opinion... cubes go so far, but to make the most out of whatever you have really comes down to the port/valve setup... then after that the bolt ons and cam can be changed to suit/compliment that bore/stroke/heads.

[deputycrawford]

     Musicman. You already told us you made the decision on the stroker kit. If you use the stroker kit, you will get an entire new rotational assembly and more strength at the same time. You will not spend much and the engine will be upgradeable forever. Add heads, cam, intake; whatever later. Afilaw is correct, power is in the air flow. Cubes tend to tame down the power to streetable levels. Do what you want, but I would build the short block and add on later. Like you said, build it once and add on forever.

[Purple440]

Your answer is here:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,31731.0.html

Ron

So for a street runner these days, with a wide selection of modern cams, rotating assemblies, and heads to choose from, it really is more or less build specific. I ask because I have a 1976 440 block with 452 heads in my shop waiting to be rebuilt and I don't plan on rebuilding it twice. I'm still deciding just what to do with it in terms of performance. I guess what it really comes down to is Bang verses Buck. However, it only seems logical to insure that the rotating assembly is built strong right from the beginning... After all, most of the bolt on top end stuff can be upgraded at anytime without to much trouble... unlike the rotating assembly which requires you to pull the engine again if you decide to upgrade later.

Speaking of intakes... I have access to a set of Long Cross Ram intakes that I'd just love use, but I don't think that they would fit under the hood of my 1st Gen... To bad though... they would definitely win the Cool Factor in a rebuild.

So with that said... any experienced comments on the subject of Bang verses Buck... I'm all ears?

Do yourself a favor and do the bowl porting and valve job now so you don't rip down later.  I've selected more than one cam that I'd like then later realized that without this work it would be a waste, or not as effective.  If you look in the archives you'll find threads saying that minor bowl work will really open up the 452 heads.  I wish I would have so don't make the same mistake.  Also enlarging (if you're doing this)  the valves to 2.14/1.81 will make a bigger difference with that work done according to this forum and things I've read elsewhere.

And oh yeah, stroke it...I wish I would have done that too.   Sucks to learn all this stuff AFTER your 440 is installed and running.   

G/L !   

[Musicman]

I started this thread with two choices for a build...

The budget build... keeping the cast crank etc., topped with a decent set of Hypereutectic's to get the compression back in the high 9's or early 10's. Lunati Voodo Cam, Micro-Trol lifters & spring kit, 60302 straight up or 60303 with a 2500 rpm stall. Original 452 heads home ported, Performer RPM or Street Dominator intake with a 750 or 800 Eddy carb.
All-n-all, a decent and fairly inexpensive power plant.

... or I could do what I really want to do... Stroke It... my problem is time & budget. For reasons not worthy of discussion, the 383 4bbl that's in my 1st Gen now has to come out in the Fall. Engine, 727 tranny with shift kit, Headers, everything... it all has to be replaced. I picked up the 1976 440 and another 727 for free, so that worked out great, but I still have a limited cash flow at the moment. If I stroke it now, I probably won't be able to get a proper set of heads on it for a while, unless someone drops a set in my lap real cheap... that would be nice.
The stroker kits at 440source all cost the same regardless... $1300 boxed, $1700 full kit and balanced. I would be looking at one of the smaller kits, 440>500, 440>512. in a .030 over... I can't see a need for any more than that on the street.
However, I don't have the money right now for a good set of heads, so it's looks like I'm not going to be driving my Charger this winter, unless you guys have a magic formula for stroking the bottom with a set of 452 heads.

At any rate... You've forced me to take my own advice and do the right thing the first time out, so I'll do the Stroker... it will take longer, be twice as expensive, and I'll need your expert advice and suggestions to complete and complement the kit correctly, but in the end... Vroom-Vroom... Zoom-Zoom... it will be worth it. I hate doing things half way.

Mike

[firefighter3931]

Mike, i like the stroker idea.....and the kits are so darn cheap now. I wish that i'd have gone the stroker route when mine was going together but there was no cheap stroker kits at that time. MP cranks were going for $1500.00 alone and then it was rods, pistons, bearings etc...

Brandon at 440source will be bringing a new aluminum head casting to the market early next year....for $900 you'll be able to get a set of closed chamber heads that flow equivelant to the Edelbrock RPM's.  A 4.25 crank/aluminum head combo is an easy 550hp/600tq combo with the right cam, induction and exhaust package to support it. 


Here's a good thread on a stroker build worth reading ;


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,782.msg12827.html#msg12827



Ron

[Musicman]

Mike, i like the stroker idea.....and the kits are so darn cheap now. I wish that i'd have gone the stroker route when mine was going together but there was no cheap stroker kits at that time. MP cranks were going for $1500.00 alone and then it was rods, pistons, bearings etc...

Brandon at 440source will be bringing a new aluminum head casting to the market early next year....for $900 you'll be able to get a set of closed chamber heads that flow equivelant to the Edelbrock RPM's.  A 4.25 crank/aluminum head combo is an easy 550hp/600tq combo with the right cam, induction and exhaust package to support it. 

Here's a good thread on a stroker build worth reading ;

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,782.msg12827.html#msg12827

Ron

Thanks Ron... $900 for a set of good heads, where do I sign?... and thanks for the link too... I forgot that Steve had a stroker. I'll contact him over at 66-67Charger.com and see how he's doing with it.

We'll be talking again real soon, I'm sure...
Thanks Again
Mike