Lifter failure

[my73charger]

Ok, I was on my home the other day and a lifter started rapping rather loudly.  I was only a mile from home so I drove it on home.  It was running rough though so I putted.   When I got home I drained the oil and popped the valve cover and on one lifter I was able to rock the rocker arm with just one finger so I knew I had a failed lifter.  I was able to pull the lifter out using a magnet and found the lifter was worn on the bottom so that it was bowled out and actually had a hole in it.  I haven't pulled the intake yet but am fearful that I now have a bad lobe on my cam shaft.  What do you think?

[firefighter3931]

That's not good news.  Your engine is now filled with small metal particles and the bearings/crank are more than likely scored up. The engine needs to come apart for inspection and possible rebuild.  Some have tried to replace just the cam/lifters only to lose the next one....this just happened recently to an aquaintance. The engine is now out for a total rebuild after losing 2 cams. 

What oil were you using ? GM engine oil supplement is a necessity for any flat tappet engine these days. Today's oil formulations are brutal ! 



Ron

[my73charger]

Man that is worse than I could have imagined.  So I would be foolish to just try and replace the lifter and limp through the rest of the year.  Mobil 1 10/30 drive clean is what I have been using.  What a complete bummer.  This week is our local car show and swap meet to.    What causes this kind of failure?

[Bob]

Question: "What causes this kind of failure?"

Answer: A car show you really want to go to.

Happened to me also.

[BrianShaughnessy]

Man that is worse than I could have imagined.  So I would be foolish to just try and replace the lifter and limp through the rest of the year.  Mobil 1 10/30 drive clean is what I have been using.  What a complete bummer.  This week is our local car show and swap meet to.    What causes this kind of failure?

That's the wrong oil to be using on a hydraulic cam anymore.   There's been many threads about what oil should I use on these boards over the years.   The general consensus was to be using 15w40 diesel oil or a supplement such as the EOS.   Sorry but your motor is hosed now.   Blame the EPA.   The sulfer compounds in old oils helped the flat tappets.   New motors are mostly roller cams and don't require them. l

[my73charger]

So what brand Engine Oil Supplement do you guys use or recommend?

[NorwayCharger]

So what brand Engine Oil Supplement do you guys use or recommend?

GM EOS..

[is_it_EVER_done?]

So what brand Engine Oil Supplement do you guys use or recommend?

GM EOS..

I've been assuming that someone would have posted this some time ago, but since it hasn't happened, I guess i will be the bearer of bad news.

GM EOS is no longer being produced. Once existing stocks are gone, it's history. !!!!!!!!!

The oil you used is definitely not the problem, it's just that without a break in supplement, it (or any oil) is not adequate for break in. Unfortunately you now have microscopic metal particles circulating through your engine, so the proper course of action is to remove - disassemble - clean - reassemble the motor. The Chrysler engine oil supplement is still available, and from what I have read it is basically the same as the GM EOS, so I would add it before starting your newly done engine.

[histoy]

A number of people advocate using Rotella T (diesel oil) when breaking in new engines.   Apparently this oil still has the zinc and other anti-wear additives that the EPA has removed from the current oils used for automobiles.

[firefighter3931]

I've been assuming that someone would have posted this some time ago, but since it hasn't happened, I guess i will be the bearer of bad news.

GM EOS is no longer being produced. Once existing stocks are gone, it's history. !!!!!!!!!

The oil you used is definitely not the problem

Gm EOS is still being made but it will be called engine assembly lube and still available through the dealership. If they're out of stock on EOS just ask for the other product.....it's the same thing. 

The OIL is the problem. The latest Virgin oil analysis data i've seen shows even synthetic Mobil 1 10/30 as being woefully inadequate for EP additives. The old 15/50 Mobil 1 used to be descent but it too has succumbed to the EPA regulations.....ZN & Phos levels are hovering in the 1000 (or less) ppm range. Royal Purple racing and Redline racing are descent synthetic lubes but they're labelled as "off road" use only. All the new "passenger car" formulations flat out suck.....synthetics included. 



Ron

[my73charger]

A friend of mine uses Havoline 15/50 racing formula, what do you think of this stuff?  I tore the engine down to the short block tonight.  One cam lobe is worn as well as the one lifter. Frustrating for sure.  Only a couple thousand miles on a complete $5000 overhaul.

[Steve P.]

Your news sucks for sure bro. We have been watching the different brands of oil go to hell over recent years. (EOS), ( Engine Oil Supplement), will be, (if not already), a thing of the past. This is an EPA tie. Break in lube from car dealers are supposed to be the same as EOS from what I'm told. When EOS is no longer available we will all have to look long and hard at the chem. compound of the new Break in lubes, but the way I'm hearing it they will sell EOS under another name and with a label saying (FOR BREAK IN PURPOSES ONLY).

I only have 2 gallons of the old Rotella T (FOR DIESELS) left. 

Sorry for your loss bro.  Pull it down and go through it again.   I have one on the stand as we speak. I have yet to take out a cam in break in or soon after, but I know nothing is perfect in this world and I alllllllways figure (this is going to be the one)..

[my73charger]

I want to thank everyone for their input on this rotten turn of luck.  I am researching my best oil alternative for the future for sure.  So can I use the Rotella 15w40 diesel oil or is that formula already been ruined to?  Man the EPA sucks!

[Steve P.]

I used to be able to get Rotella "T" (DIESEL) at Walmart and also at Central Tractor Supply. Last time I wanted to buy it they had ZERO at Wally world and Tractor Supply had 2 gallons left. I bought them and the manager told me the new stuff DID NOT SAY (DIESEL) on it.  This truly blows!!!!!!   

[firefighter3931]

I want to thank everyone for their input on this rotten turn of luck.  I am researching my best oil alternative for the future for sure.  So can I use the Rotella 15w40 diesel oil or is that formula already been ruined to?  Man the EPA sucks!

My73 ;

Rotella is still descent allthough it's not what it used to be....thanks to the EPA  A-holes ! 

Latest Virgin oil analysis on Rotella 15/40 (April 2007) shows zinc@ 1130ppm & phosphorus@ 996ppm. The same lab tested the same oil (Nov 2005) and the numbers were Zn@1555ppm & phos@1278ppm. The oil rating has changed from a CI-4 to a CJ-4. The older CI-4 formulation as you can see is much better. If you find some of the (CI-4) grab all of it !  If you're using the CJ-4 (new stuff) then you must use EOS or something similar.

GM EOS (Jan 2007) came in at zn@6221ppm & phos@5762ppm so a bottle of this stuff (16oz) with every oil change will boost up the EP package significantly. You need to run BOTH ! 


In regards to the Havoline 20/50 ; latest results for March 2007 show zn@425ppm & phos@494ppm. If your buddy is running this oil he needs to add some EOS asap or he risks losing his cam (and engine) suffering the same fate that you are. Let him know.




Ron

[my73charger]

Thanks Ron, very much appreciated! 

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome 

Here's a virgin oil analysis for the Mobil 1 10/30 that you were running in your engine prior to the failure. This test is dated 2005 and the zn/phos was low then....it's probably non existant at this point. In 2005 the numbers were ; 858ppm & 750ppm. Not enough of either for my liking. 


Ron

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Gm EOS is still being made but it will be called engine assembly lube and still available through the dealership. If they're out of stock on EOS just ask for the other product.....it's the same thing. 

I have a friend who owns a Chevy dealership (amongst others) and I asked him to check on this. He told me that according to his service manager and regional rep, that the assembly lube is not the same as EOS, in fact he said that the new instructions with the crate engines is to use Delco EOS as it is supposed to be the same thing.

If you have other information, please let us know as things are getting bleak for those of us that run old designed engines.

The OIL is the problem. The latest Virgin oil analysis data i've seen shows even synthetic Mobil 1 10/30 as being woefully inadequate for EP additives. The old 15/50 Mobil 1 used to be descent but it too has succumbed to the EPA regulations.....ZN & Phos levels are hovering in the 1000 (or less) ppm range. Royal Purple racing and Redline racing are descent synthetic lubes but they're labelled as "off road" use only. All the new "passenger car" formulations flat out suck.....synthetics included. 

How exactly can the oil be the problem? It's fairly well known that ANY brand, ANY weight of passenger car oil can no longer contain the additives necessary to eliminate cam wear due to EPA mandates, so any legaly available oil for passenger cars may allow for failed lifters/lobes. An additive that has the wear protection must be used for the first few thousand miles (after that, there are few incidences of failure).

Mobil 1 has proven to be a great oil so to say it's the problem only helps to perpetrate the myths that are accepted truths due to internet misinformation , and may mislead others into thinking that if they run Casterol/Pennzoil/Wal-Mart brand, or some other available oil, that they will be OK.

The reality is that even decades ago when oil was infinitely better from a cam wear standpoint, you needed to add a break in supplement. However after break in, hundreds of millions of cars led happy lives with straight oil, even after oil was EPA'd. Look at any junk yard. Hundreds of worn out cars, but I defy you to find one that is in there due to cam failure even when run on EPA oil during the latter part of it's life.

This, or any enthusiast board, is geared toward performance. The problem with this is that a stock engine had "ports" in the rod parting line that squirted oil on the cam/lifters to supply a plentiful amount of oil. Not only that, but even performance spring pressures were not what is common nowdays.

Fast forward to a typical build now. Aftermarket rods that have no oil squirter's (even most bearings available for stock rods don't have provisions for the squirter's), windage trays that keep down the "splash" oiling, fast ramp cams that greatly increase pressure on the lobe/lifters, in some cases reduced oiling to the heads/rockers which reduces the flow of oil over the cam/lifters as the oil makes it's way back down towards the pan, sometimes bushed lifter bores or blocked lifter oil galleys, etc.  ---- Were it not for the dramatically superior film/shear properties of modern oils (synthetics in particular), we would have been relegated to the junk yards many years ago as we have eliminated over 90% of the cam/lifter oiling in modern times.

Is the answer a roller cam? No way! modern engines that are designed for rollers have enclosed cam tunels that assure a constant submersion in oil, plus they have dedicated oil squirter's that direct oil in the bottom of the cylinders to help cool the pistons and assure plenty of oil to the pins. I've only used two roller cams in my life and both failed due to lifter roller destruction. Our old engines are just not designed for them if you actually drive the car. Some people swear by them, but they drive 500 to a little over a 1,000 miles per year, which equals a trailer queen as far as wear goes.

Some of the cam companies are working on "non roller", roller lifters. Meaning that they have babbitt bearings and pressure fed oil galleys. This may be the answer, but only time will tell. In the meantime, only an accurate/open sharing of information will let us all know what easily available additive is workable with off the shelf oils. The EPA is eliminating the additives that we need with these old cars (even out of diesel oils), but there are still solutions. The problem is that we will have to sort through the bull in order to find the solutions that are needed, and long term.

For those that think using whichever current oil that has a bit higher Zinc, Molly, Copper, etc., quantity, --- perhaps this will keep it in perspective for you --- Imagine an Olympic sized swimming pool. Now take a 5 gallon bucket and remove a bucket full from the pool. The difference is approximately 125 PPM! So to think that a current oil that is slightly less "diluted" than another by a few hundred PPM will protect your engine is silly. To say that ANY currently available oil is the cause for a failure, knowing that they all are EPA'd, is equally irresponsible.

We need to work together to find a solution. posts of failures and successes and what was used, are of growing importance. Posts of "this or that" oil is junk only cloud the issue, as well as what does or doesn't work (or is or isn't the same), without empirical data to back them up.

This topic is too important to not address with responsibility, as it profoundly affects the continued operation of our cars.

[firefighter3931]

Is it ever done ; the oil is the problem due tothe reduced EP package that has been mandated by the EPA.....i don't know how much simpler i can explain it. Look at the examples listed above....Rotella used to be loaded with Zinc and Phospohorus....now it isn't. That boils down to an oil problem plain and simple....what used to be good enough.....no longer is 

The assembly lube (GM) has the same Zn/phosphorus concentrations as the EOS. The EPA has probably put the kybosh on the oil supplement because of the way it is labelled. Having an over the counter additive is probably seen as a way of circumventing the reduced EP additives that have been mandated. Calling it a cam/lifter assembly lube is a different matter so it's a matter of semantics. As for EOS ; i purchased 12 bottles of it a month ago at my local dealership....it's still available up here.

Studies have shown that cam wear is directly proportional to the zinc/phos levels in the engine lube. As the ZN levels are reduced the wear is accelerated. Increased spring pressures also require more EP additives for a long and happy service life. So if you're running a hot cam with increased spring loads...you better have some descent lube in there or it's destined to fail. 


As for synthetics ; the "off road" stuff is still descent.....redline & royal purple have it all but it's expensive. Some people are using motorcycle oil which is designed for severe duty on air cooled engines. The Mobil 1 10/40 (MX4T) bike oil has zn 1600ppm/phos 1400ppm as recently as April of this year. Mobil also makes a 15/50 EP grade that has slightly less than the MX stuff; zn 1279ppm/ phos 1062ppm as of april 2007 which is the lastest test i have available. Both of these would be OK for most street applications with a flat tappet cam, inmo. Not sure on the price and availablity on these oils....i've never seen either on the shelf.


For those that want to run a conventional dino oil the rotella/eos brew is more than enough to get the job done and not break the bank at every oil change. I wouldn't consider running anything else except maybe an off road racing oil (Valvoline vr-1) and i would still add some EOS to that lube for added protection.   



Ron

[Animal]

Would Castrol Magnetec 20w 50 be the next oil to use?

[firefighter3931]

Would Castrol Magnetec 20w 50 be the next oil to use?

Adam, is that a racing oil ? If it's just a regular passenger car oil then it's probably not good enough. See if you can get a msds for it and check out the zinc/phosphorus levels. 


Ron

[PA Dodger]

Firefighter, I was talking to an engine builder not long ago that said many of the cam manufacturers have recently switched to supplying lifters  from"overseas" which are made from substandard materials. He said he has been seeing more wiped cams recently.  Have you seen this recently? I'm not disputing the oil claims, just curious if crappy lifters are now a way of life too.
Dan

[Charger-Bodie]

Firefighter, I was talking to an engine builder not long ago that said many of the cam manufacturers have recently switched to supplying lifters  from"overseas" which are made from substandard materials. He said he has been seeing more wiped cams recently.  Have you seen this recently? I'm not disputing the oil claims, just curious if crappy lifters are now a way of life too.
Dan

i heard the oppisite in that they had been supplied by an overseas vender and were not that great, but that johnson lifters is making the lifters for most cam cos again and that they are way better.

[Ghoste]

A combination of the two would certainly contribute.

[Charger-Bodie]

just to clearify one thing , im not saying its the lifters fault not the oil.......im am a firm believer that todays oil is useless to us unless its doctered up with additives to bring it up to snuff.

[Purple440]

I've been assuming that someone would have posted this some time ago, but since it hasn't happened, I guess i will be the bearer of bad news.

GM EOS is no longer being produced. Once existing stocks are gone, it's history. !!!!!!!!!

The oil you used is definitely not the problem

Gm EOS is still being made but it will be called engine assembly lube and still available through the dealership. If they're out of stock on EOS just ask for the other product.....it's the same thing. 

The OIL is the problem. The latest Virgin oil analysis data i've seen shows even synthetic Mobil 1 10/30 as being woefully inadequate for EP additives. The old 15/50 Mobil 1 used to be descent but it too has succumbed to the EPA regulations.....ZN & Phos levels are hovering in the 1000 (or less) ppm range. Royal Purple racing and Redline racing are descent synthetic lubes but they're labelled as "off road" use only. All the new "passenger car" formulations flat out suck.....synthetics included. 



Ron

Ron,

I'm currently using the 15/50 Mobile 1 synthetic.  We called them and they said this oil would work.  If your saying it won't, are you suggesting adding the GM EOS with every oil change?  And add that to which oil if not the Mobile 1.

thx,

- Doug

[Ghoste]

And as a regular user of the GM EOS, I guess I must be in agreement.

[firefighter3931]

Firefighter, I was talking to an engine builder not long ago that said many of the cam manufacturers have recently switched to supplying lifters  from"overseas" which are made from substandard materials. He said he has been seeing more wiped cams recently.  Have you seen this recently? I'm not disputing the oil claims, just curious if crappy lifters are now a way of life too.
Dan

Dan, there are some junk lifters out there....that is true. The domestic lifters are descent quality and now that Johnson is back in the lifter business things are looking better. Machining is as important as metallurgy.....the lifter must be able to rotate in the bore or a cam failure will result. It's important for the face of the lifter to have a crown machined in to promote lifter rotation under load. Some of the offshore stuff is not machined properly and this contributes to the problem. I allways assemble the valvetrain and rotate the engine over by hand....looking at the lifters to make sure that they're rotating.....if they aren't you will have problems.

Lifter rotation and a descent lube with the proper additive package is your best chance at keeping the engine happy. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

I'm currently using the 15/50 Mobile 1 synthetic.  We called them and they said this oil would work.  If your saying it won't, are you suggesting adding the GM EOS with every oil change?  And add that to which oil if not the Mobile 1.

thx,

- Doug

Doug, the latest data on mobil 1 15/50 is showing around 1000ppm for both phos and zinc. That's not bad, compared to other oils out there, but it could be better. 

I would use the EOS with the Mobil1 15/50 on every oil change....run it all the time. Nuthing wrong with synthetic lube as long as the extreme pressure additives are present. 

Heck, for $10.00 is it worth risking a grenaded motor .....don't think so. 



Ron

[BrianShaughnessy]

I like to cocktail my oil...   and I like to use good quality lifters.   Last time I took the cheezy hollow solid MP lifters that came with the .528 and threw them in a bucket and got a set of Comp solids....   no problems.   Before that I took the MP hydraulics that came with the .509 and thew them away for Crane Hi Intensity - again... no problems.

With the upcoming stroker I'm gonna investigate the Howards lifters with the oiling hole.   Sounds promising. 

It should be noted that Comp is saying their high end lifters are Johnsons' again  - see here: http://compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/NP2007/Images/4.jpg

[my73charger]

A friend of mine was over last night to help me and he told me he was talking to someone yesterday that told him he read an article that more cams have been wiped out these last couple of years than ever before.  Of course  I am not sure how long or if anyone is actually keeping stats on this and he didn't say what the article stated as a cause but that sure is crappy.

Also on another note, I was mistaken on the kind of oil he uses, he was using the Valvoline Racing formula oil in his fresh 440 but I now have him convinced to add some EOS to avoid my mess.

[my73charger]

I just talked to the guy that built my motor and he says he used Federal Mogul lifters and I had a Comp Cam.  Are Federal lifters any good?

[firefighter3931]

I just talked to the guy that built my motor and he says he used Federal Mogul lifters and I had a Comp Cam.  Are Federal lifters any good?

Not sure who FM is sourcing their lifters from.....they could be descent or substandard offshore stuff. 

I have used COMP & Crower lifters with excellent results. I even ran the old MP stuff years ago and never had any failures....but who knows where they're getting them from now ?

The oil was a contributing factor to your engine damage.....but it's impossible to say if it was the only factor. Assuming that the machinist verified lifter rotation during mockup, then i would be inclined to place blame on the lube. 



Ron

[my73charger]

Yeah it would be interesting to know if they are made in the good ole USA.  I just bought a couple gallons of Rotella T for future use at my local parts store.  Now, if I understand correctly, I don't really need to add EOS to it correct?  Or do you still recommend it maybe?

[firefighter3931]

I would still use the EOS....run it with the Rotella. 



Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

I would ude the EOS [also available as Crankcase conditioner from Mopar ]

[Challenger340]

I'd like to see the metals content ratings on diffy EP additives ? Dunno if EPA has gone there yet ?

[firefighter3931]

I'd like to see the metals content ratings on diffy EP additives ? Dunno if EPA has gone there yet ?

Bob, i doubt that the EPA will be concerned with axle lube as it's not a by product of combustion like engine oil is. The primary reason for Zn/Phos elimination has been related to emmissions. Those EP additives (supposedly) plug up the cats and increase Hydrocarbon/Nox output levels. That is the "official" explanation from what i can gather. 

Funny how all the older Diesel trucks have been running fine with the good (CI rated) Rotella with no reported catalytic converter meltdowns. I looked around on the Diesel truck boards to see if this was ever a problem. 



Ron

[my73charger]

Hey guys I forgot to give an update on my lifter failure.  I really lucked out.  We didn't find any damage or problems in engine.  All the bearings looked good as well as the cylinders.  We did fluish the motor twice and it seems to be fine.  Great oil pressure and no smoke or anything. 

[Purple440]

Great news! 

[firefighter3931]

Hey guys I forgot to give an update on my lifter failure.  I really lucked out.  We didn't find any damage or problems in engine.  All the bearings looked good as well as the cylinders.  We did fluish the motor twice and it seems to be fine.  Great oil pressure and no smoke or anything. 

That is great news and you caught it in time. 


Ron