Some drivetrain combo I think will work... but opinions. Please ASAP

[Nacho-RT74]

OK... I'm decided to make some peformance upgrade on my charger but keeping the stock appearence ( sleeper ). Remember is for street use but... you know,  eat me some ricers once in a while on traffic lights.

A friend of mine bought sometime ago a KB240 piston set. Engine went badly assemblied and two pistons got damages. Just got run 2 days. I was thinking on 451 stroke, but right now I'm more thinking on an intermediate step. Pistons are standart bore. My engine does have around just 20K miles without abuse since I sleeved to standart bore so I don't think won't have problem, just reinstalling new pistons on same bore. what do you think on buy two KB240 pistons to complete the set and install on my engine using same bore?

Camshaft... I was thinking on just a step ahead from the stock one, but will like to keep with Mopar Performance Brand if posible... on this I NEED better advice... so help. Not expensive too please.

A friend of mine does have already here a Mopar Performance Chromed ECU module still in box, that I could use since he finally got MSD... so that's something to think when choose the Camshaft I think.

Tranny will keep stock, even I have a Mopar NOS shifter kit around to install what I don't really know what makes exactly.

Heads will be SLIGHTLY milled down... dunno how much. Headgasket will be metalic. Stock intake and stock TQ carb. Will try to get locally double timming chain setup.


All this headache is based on my 3rd member rebuilt. Spider gears and shaft kit cost $190 and got a quote for a new Jukon suregrip ( clutch ) for $350. That is a good price specially compairing with just the kit rebuilt FOR THE OPEN carrier... what about Yukon quality ? This price made me think on start my performance step up upgrade, because If I'll pay THAT SHIPPING COST because the weight, then doesn't worth just buy the suregrip. If I bring it down, then will be a complete upgrade to make it worth the effort and cost. ( trust me... will be a GIANT effort )

Please try to post your advice/thoughts ASAP. My car is parked since 3 weeks ago and I want it to get it running ASAP to park and fix some stuff on my parents car what is my driver ( 1975 280S Mercedes )

[aifilaw]

Nacho,
if your trying to make a true "sleeper" then cam choice may or may not be an issue as far as a lopey sound, its hard to get away from if you want your vehicle to truly perform, but some people want their car to sound like a sleeper too, so a very mild cam is necessary, but there are tricks to getting it to operate well up high and not have a lope to it down low.

chrome ECU is a good bet, the stock ECU's tend to die if you run them up to 5 grand too often.
shift kits are nice
heads....
milling just increases your static and dynamic CR, and is usually done by a machine shop just to make sure they are flat on the block. But really, the money people spend for this as a feature is money they could spend making the real power, by porting the heads intake and exhaust ports, bowls, blending the bowls, back-cutting the valves, et cetera... that's where the power is made. More power potential is created in the heads than by boring or stroking a block, by a cam, or even headers... that's the building block that almost everything else stems from to unleash the true potential of your engine, that's where I spend my money first (after determining the bore/stroke as well of course). All other upgrades can be done slowly and over time to match up with the potential you get there, and those later upgrades can be done with the engine still in the car and the long block assembled for the most part.

[Nacho-RT74]

Well, milling will be also because heads surface is some rusted because was bad storaged, so will need to be milled anyway. They are untouched 452 and I have NOS double valve springs to install. I can ask for some quotes of jobs on machine job about some extra can be done on heads, but I'm mostly trying to get a small step up, not a big one.

Camshaft yeah, I'm thinking on a mild cam. About sleeper, of course I'm not really concern on a big sound engine, but want definitelly no more than earlier stock 440 or 383 engines what sound way BIGGER than a stock 400 as far I have heard in person. will be fine with that. I have stock mufflers anyway and will keep then for a while.

I'm checking the Mopar Performance DCC-4120235 camshaft... looks a good choice to me. Need to keep alos good vacuum since will keep brake booster.

being the stock 400 a 260 Hp engine, maybe I'm not expecting on get more than 330-350 HP rate... kinda an earlier 383

So you don't think reinstall standart bore pistons on 20K miles engine ( not abused ) is OK ?

what about Summit double chain set SUM-G6604 ? they states steel, half of price and same specs than other brands with Iron/Steel sprocket set.

[Nacho-RT74]

sorry, also undecided between 3:23 and 3:55... how much difference in RPMs  to get same speed ? ( also top speed )

[aifilaw]

well, I think you missed the main point I was driving at...

get the head work done, get it done really well... spend some serious cash on it right now... 2-3k and skip doing all your other mods until later when you have the money/time...

the reason to do this is that you have a good foundation, or baseline....so when you do have the money, and you install a cam, headers, valvetrain, carb, ignition, et cetera... instead of putting that stuff on a stock block with near-stock heads and ending up with a whopping 350 hp at the flywheel and wondering what to do next, the answer will invariably be... do the head work...then you have to pull the whole thing apart...may as well freshen the block, and stroke it, et cetera. When you could have done the heads first, and left everything else alone until later, then change out those exact same components and end up with 500 hp.

3.23 vs 3.55 is not that much, it depends on how you like to drive it, with a 1:1 ratio, through an auto and 3.55's your looking at about 3000 RPM for 65mph with 28" tires off the top of my head. there are calculators out there though.


http://www.camaroz28.com/services/calcs/#

go under RPM and MPH calculator

[BrianShaughnessy]

That DCC-4120235  cam is the early 484 cam with 108 lobes.   It's NOT a high vacuum cam - many people run them still but it will have a pretty ratty idle and you'd probably need more gear than what you're considering.   You may want to consider the newer 114 degree version DCC-5007697.     Otherwise consider the 383/440 resto cam DCC-4452783 - based on what you said I'd recommend that.

The Summit timing chain should be fine.   I got the billet version and it's very nice... compares very favorably to the more expensive brands.

[Nacho-RT74]

well, I think you missed the main point I was driving at...

whooops... sorry... No, really I got you what you said about heads... I think I can get heads job since locally is a lot cheaper than Up there... just that since I'm thinking on bring down everything saving shipping won't worth the effort bring down just the suregrip unit and then the rest, that was my point... I have 3 heads sets to make experiments, plus I can found here NOS 452 heads available on dealers.

thanks for the link... will check.

Still waiting for some more opinions...

Anything will be welcome. I'm newbie on performance, but don't miss the point, is just a street performance upgrade, not racing, trying to use what I already have in hands and still keep stock look underhood.

I'm trying to get everything bought this same week as much late

[Nacho-RT74]

That DCC-4120235  cam is the early 484 cam with 108 lobes.   It's NOT a high vacuum cam - many people run them still but it will have a pretty ratty idle and you'd probably need more gear than what you're considering.   You may want to consider the newer 114 degree version DCC-5007697.     Otherwise consider the 383/440 resto cam DCC-4452783 - based on what you said I'd recommend that.

The Summit timing chain should be fine.   I got the billet version and it's very nice... compares very favorably to the more expensive brands.

I'm still learning about camshaft selection... thanks. I have some file I saved from the old board about that... $70 difference between the one I was checking and the new version you told me DCC-5007697 is more than the timming chain set cost LOL, but will study that, and thats the goal of this thread.

yes, will be nice keep good iddle and initial throtling and good boost at middle RPMs range to make the chrome box WORKS.

[supserdave]

What about the summit cams? There cheap, and would work well in your combo. I would skip the mopar cams.

What compression ratio will you be at?

[Nacho-RT74]

I think KB240s are around 9.5

[aifilaw]

I have yet to see (with the exception of perhaps summit) an after market cam vendor sell a cam that was not superior to the MP grinds in almost every way, and often for less $$$

[supserdave]

  Big summit cam, mill those 452's enough to get atleast 9-1, and a cheap set of headers. That will give you a heck of an improvement over stock and should easily be 330hp....

Should be cheap to if you already have most of the pistons.

[Nacho-RT74]

Should be cheap to if you already have most of the pistons.

is getting hard get just 2 pistons... summit crew told me KB is not making individual KB240 on standart bore  , however summit have listed 020 and 030 bore individual pistons on $43... Jegs have standart bore on $63   

[aifilaw]

if I were you, I'd spend a few minutes calling smaller distributer's/retailers... or even machine/engine shops. These guys often have a few pistons from a build that blew up on them sitting on the shelf collecting dust until the next buildup/breakdown and can sell you two of the same model in good condition.

[Nacho-RT74]

Not here, those pistons are unexistant here.

fortunatelly got another seller... www.campbellenterprises.com

Already quoted me $95 both... checking if they have rest of parts at good price to get everything from only one seller.

Discussion and suggestion topic is still opened... still completelly undecided.

[Nacho-RT74]

Not here, those pistons are unexistant here.

fortunatelly got another seller... www.campbellenterprises.com

Already quoted me $95 both... checking if they have rest of parts at good price to get everything from only one seller.

definitelly THEY HAVE better prices...

[Nacho-RT74]

I cant' understand this

DCC-5007697  and  DCC-4120235  are almost same specs ( just  degrees difference ) on summit website, but $70 difference... why ?

[Nacho-RT74]

Found spec that wasn't exposed on Summit website... 56º overlap on 697 cam, so does look definitelly better iddling keeping better idle mixture, better than the 235 with 68º ( that what I have read on an article ). The best... found 697 cam cheaper than Summit.

so... does look is a good choice ? ( thanks Brian )

[tecmopar]

As said above, some good head work makes a big difference. Mopar use to sell ( I don't know if they still sell them ) a set of porting templates that make it really easy for a decent machinist to do the bowls and they make a BIG gain. I've used mine about 20 times and always felt the difference, better low end and top end. As far as the pistons go, Jegs will always mach Summit's price and visa-versa, just make sure that the bores are not more then a couple of thousanths over stock, good luck.

[Nacho-RT74]

As said above, some good head work makes a big difference. Mopar use to sell ( I don't know if they still sell them ) a set of porting templates that make it really easy for a decent machinist to do the bowls and they make a BIG gain. I've used mine about 20 times and always felt the difference, better low end and top end. As far as the pistons go, Jegs will always mach Summit's price and visa-versa, just make sure that the bores are not more then a couple of thousanths over stock, good luck.

yeah I'm keeping in mind the heads job, but templates will be nice to get... if you know where will be fine

[Nacho-RT74]

does look hard to choose a camshaft, specially without experience running one or another... and I'm not sure the stock one I have:

4452783     268/284dur 46o/lap 450/458lift idle-5800 rpm     
4529270    268/284dur 46o/lap 450/458lift idle-5800rpm    
4286675    260/260dur 34o/lap 430/430lift 1000-5300rpm    
4248677    272/272dur 48o/lap 455/455lift 1300/5700rpm    
4452993    280/280dur 60o/lap 474/474lift 2000/5900rpm    
4120235    284/284dur 68o/lap 484/484lift 2200/5900rpm    
5007697    284/284dur 56o/lap 484/484lift 2200/5900rpm    
4120237    292/292dur 76o/lap 509/509lift 2600/6000rpm    
5007698    292/292dur 64o/lap 509/509lift 2600/6000rpm    
4529318    320/320dur 104o/lap 533/533lift 3600/6300rpm

seller is also recomending me this one 4286675

But checking speed and RPMs I can get, to get a good cam relation and engine, I'm more toward to 4248677

[Nacho-RT74]

HAHAH FOUND THE BEST NUMBERS ONE... but small block
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EDL%2D7177&autoview=sku

[Nacho-RT74]

Guys I found a NOS Mopar Camshaft, dirty cheap, still on box... PN 3512905 but on box apparently labeled with supersedes number: 4071002. Dealer told me both numbers reffers to the same camshaft.

some of you guys knows the specs ?

[firefighter3931]

Buy a good cam with a 112* lsa if you plan to use the factory manifolds. The Lunati VooDoo 220/226 grind would be my choice. 


Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

220/226 ?

Isn't that LESS than the stock one ? ( unles you reffers @ 050 )

[Nacho-RT74]

what is BRIGGS AND STRATTON on lifter style of DCC-4286677 cam ?

[firefighter3931]

220/226 ?

Isn't that LESS than the stock one ? ( unles you reffers @ 050 )

That's the duration at .050 valve lift. 

The VooDoo cams are fast rate modern profiles with more high lift area....basicly they idle better and make lots more power. Crower & Engle also make some nice profiles that would work well in that combo. 


http://holley.com/60302.asp

http://crower.com/misc/cam_spec/cam_finder.php?part_num=32242&x=46&y=7




Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

Guys I found a NOS Mopar Camshaft, dirty cheap, still on box... PN 3512905 but on box apparently labeled with supersedes number: 4071002. Dealer told me both numbers reffers to the same camshaft.

some of you guys knows the specs ?[/]

lightningjar.com states for this cam aplication:
3512907                                               SEE 2843564
2843564    64-75 318, 383, 440 CID        CAMSHAFT W/ HI PERF (SA 3512907)

(even nothing about 4071002, probably newer number still not in archives )


and please:

what is BRIGGS AND STRATTON on lifter style of DCC-4286677 cam ?

[Nacho-RT74]

what about this double chain set ?


good or bad... dunno that brand

[Nacho-RT74]

what about DCC-4452993

[Nacho-RT74]

what about DCC-4452993

Cam Style:                                                                          Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:                                                   2,000-6,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:                                           238
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:                                           238
Duration at 050 inch Lift:                                                       238 int./238 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:                                                    280
Advertised Exhaust Duration:                                                   280
Advertised Duration:                                                               280 int./280 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:                     0.474 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:                    0.474 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:                                0.474 int./0.474 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees):                                                   110
Camshaft Gear Attachment:                                                 1-bolt
Intake Valve Lash:                                                                0.000 in.
Exhaust Valve Lash:                                                               0.000 in.
Computer Controlled Compatible:                                         No
Lifters Included:                                                                  Yes
Lifter Style:                                                                            Hydraulic flat tappet


Overlap 60

[SeattleCharger]

 Mopar performance aluminum heads, assembled, from mancini  are about 1300 or 1400 a pair, and stock manifolds will work with them,  big big hp gain, if you figure you have to spend a bunch on your heads,  I don't know, just an idea, can be painted to look more stock,  will match up with rest of your build and cam pretty well I think, some others might have better info from the site, but if you figure what you might be spending on fixing up your heads, subtract from 1300, and you have aluminum heads, 

[Nacho-RT74]

great!! but I can't afford them right now.

I'll explain something... because goverment regulations I just can spend with my credit card $3000 by year by person on electronic buys, so those heads are almost half of I can spend, and still need to get a lot more stuf, toward more to resto than on all what PERFORMANCE does mean. I could use my parents credit card but anyway RIGHT NOW is out of my budget.

[aifilaw]

I thought you could bribe officials to fix that sort of thing?

[Nacho-RT74]

I can't bribe an electronic system!!!

[firefighter3931]

So you don't think reinstall standart bore pistons on 20K miles engine ( not abused ) is OK ?

The KB pistons have to be sized correctly to the bore.....this is very important. The piston to wall clearance is tighter than on a conventional piston so you need to measure your bore diamaeter to see if they'll even work.  I believe the KB spec is .002 piston to wall clearance after the finish hone....if your cylinders are bigger than this spec then the KB slugs are of no use to you. 

Personally i wouldn't pull down a good running engne to increase compression. There are other ways to make it run well. A set of closed chamber heads, steel shim gaskets and the right cam profile would really wake it up and save you a lot of work rebuilding the shortblock. 



Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

Great!!, thanks for that info!!!

if they don't work, then My performance upgrade will have to wait untill next year and will go directly to the 451 stroker. And pistons will be sold as complete kit down here.