Another sign the Mexicans are taking over....

[bull]

I don't get it. I can't say something? Other than yelling "fire" in a crowded theater I think I say say most anything. Freedom of speech is one of the rights our multi-heritaged forefathers fought for. And if tyrants, domestic or otherwise, attempt to take over the US you're saying I have no right to fight for it because I'm not fully Indian? Please explain. Otherwise I guess only 1/8th of me will be able to fight.

You didn't take your Sharp pills, do you? My point is that it's rather hypocritical when you say that people can't leave their countries, when more than likely you are the descendant of someone who did (unless you're native american).

No need to get personal with the sharp comment, Ponch. Your point is invalid BTW because my descendants did not come here illegally. I never said people can't or shouldn't leave their countries for another country, I'm saying they should wait their turn, do it legally within the parameters of the system and assimilate, not divide. If they can't do that they should stay put and make their own system work. Even those who defect must go through the proper channels to becoming citizens. They don't just land here and take off running.

Speaking of which, I have a good friend and former co-worker who was once a soldier in the Iranian military and he stole a military helicopter loaded with his and his brother's family and escaped into Turkey and eventually made it here. Even he went through the proper channels to become an American and he wanted to become an American. He did not expect the Americans to speak his language when he arrived, he knew he would have to work his tail off to learn the language, get a job and contribute. My point is that he endured many hardships to become a US citizen, way more than just hoofing it a few hundred yards across a border, and he didn't do it just to benefit himself. He believes in our system and supports it and it in turn has supported he and his family.

By the way, do you know how all the legal Mexicans immigrants feel about the other immigrants bypassing the system? If I were them I'd be pissed off. It's probably a lot like getting cut off on the freeway 50,000 times on the way to work.

[41husk]

  I can't believe this thread is  still unlocked!  I wonder just how long it will go?

[Vainglory, Esq.]

[edit]

I had a particularly mean-spirited post here directed at Rolling Thunder, whose economics are totally and completely off-base.  I posted it when I was in a terrible mood, but I'd rather not get into a fight, especially over economic policy that went out of vogue in the 1700s.

Let's just say I disagree.

Carlos Slim is a shining example of shrewd business, and his wealth is only an indicator of the fact (FACT!) that he and his companies have helped literally millions of Mexicans rise above destitution.  If Mexico had more Slims there would be much less incentive for illegal immigration.  Poor guy can't catch a break - he gets shit for what his countrymen do but then he gets shit for helping his countrymen.  I say he's a hero.  Viva Slim.

[PocketThunder]

 

[Ponch ®]

I don't get it. I can't say something? Other than yelling "fire" in a crowded theater I think I say say most anything. Freedom of speech is one of the rights our multi-heritaged forefathers fought for. And if tyrants, domestic or otherwise, attempt to take over the US you're saying I have no right to fight for it because I'm not fully Indian? Please explain. Otherwise I guess only 1/8th of me will be able to fight.

You didn't take your Sharp pills, do you? My point is that it's rather hypocritical when you say that people can't leave their countries, when more than likely you are the descendant of someone who did (unless you're native american).

No need to get personal with the sharp comment, Ponch. Your point is invalid BTW because my descendants did not come here illegally. I never said people can't or shouldn't leave their countries for another country, I'm saying they should wait their turn, do it legally within the parameters of the system and assimilate, not divide. If they can't do that they should stay put and make their own system work. Even those who defect must go through the proper channels to becoming citizens. They don't just land here and take off running.

Speaking of which, I have a good friend and former co-worker who was once a soldier in the Iranian military and he stole a military helicopter loaded with his and his brother's family and escaped into Turkey and eventually made it here. Even he went through the proper channels to become an American and he wanted to become an American. He did not expect the Americans to speak his language when he arrived, he knew he would have to work his tail off to learn the language, get a job and contribute. My point is that he endured many hardships to become a US citizen, way more than just hoofing it a few hundred yards across a border, and he didn't do it just to benefit himself. He believes in our system and supports it and it in turn has supported he and his family.

By the way, do you know how all the legal Mexicans immigrants feel about the other immigrants bypassing the system? If I were them I'd be pissed off. It's probably a lot like getting cut off on the freeway 50,000 times on the way to work.

Sure they came here legally - back then all you had to do was show up and not be Asian, Jewish or Italian. Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't have come here illegally if that had been their only option.

Look, ideally people would fight their way out of poverty in their own countries, buy a Ford F150 pick up and sing "I'd like to teach the world to sing", but that aint gonna happen. We can either argue all day about how to cleanse the country of these people you find so undesirable, or we can try to think up realisitic solutions.

[bull]

Sure they came here legally - back then all you had to do was show up and not be Asian, Jewish or Italian. Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't have come here illegally if that had been their only option.

Look, ideally people would fight their way out of poverty in their own countries, buy a Ford F150 pick up and sing "I'd like to teach the world to sing", but that aint gonna happen. We can either argue all day about how to cleanse the country of these people you find so undesirable, or we can try to think up realisitic solutions.

I don't find anyone undesirable but I do find some people's actions undesirable. And we have a realistic solution in place right now; it's called "following procedure." If more people would do that things would probably move along much faster for those trying to legitimately become citizens and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Ponch ®]

Sure they came here legally - back then all you had to do was show up and not be Asian, Jewish or Italian. Don't think for a minute that they wouldn't have come here illegally if that had been their only option.

Look, ideally people would fight their way out of poverty in their own countries, buy a Ford F150 pick up and sing "I'd like to teach the world to sing", but that aint gonna happen. We can either argue all day about how to cleanse the country of these people you find so undesirable, or we can try to think up realisitic solutions.

I don't find anyone undesirable but I do find some people's actions undesirable. And we have a realistic solution in place right now; it's called "following procedure." If more people would do that things would probably move along much faster for those trying to legitimately become citizens and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What actions do you find so undesirable? Can you blame someone for wanting to go somewhere where they can make enough money to feed their families? If they could come here legally, they would. Unfortunately the process takes too long and its too expensive for most of these people who are already dirty poor. When you're desperate, you will do whatever it takes. Of course, whenever there is mention of loosening up the rules and making the process easier, you hear cries of "well, 'they' are ALL wanna come here". Why would you not want 'them' to come over here if they did it legally?

[bull]

The actions I find undesirable are the illegal ones. And how is it you can say "if they would come here legally they would" when there's thousands of Mexicans already in line, following proper procedure to come here legally? Do their needs not matter? Are the problems of those jumping the border more serious than the problems of those following proper procedure? Where else does it work like that? Can I just walk right up to the counter at the DMV without taking a number because I think my business is more important than everyone else's? Do I get to bypass everyone in the doc's waiting room because my foot really hurts? No, I get in line. How is usurping the system fair to those people who've been waiting in line for a year? Thousands of illegals are inundating the system and making it near impossible for those people who are trying to get here legally. I don't believe those people's problems are any more or less minute than those stuck in Mexico, but they have managed to follow procedure.

And thanks for bringing us back to my original point. If a Mexican living in Mexico can become the richest man on Earth why can't a couple hundred thousand of his fellow countrymen come up with $675, the aptitude to fill out an application and the will to exercise a little patience? How much do they have to pay smugglers to get them in? $200? $500? $1,000?

[bull]

Why would you not want 'them' to come over here if they did it legally?

What? I never said that. Look back at all the words I've been writing in this thread. Never once have I said anything derogatory about immigrants who come here legally. Did you not see the entire paragraph I wrote about my Iranian friend? I'm talking about ILLEGAL immigration.

[Ponch ®]

The actions I find undesirable are the illegal ones. And how is it you can say "if they would come here legally they would" when there's thousands of Mexicans already in line, following proper procedure to come here legally? Do their needs not matter? Are the problems of those jumping the border more serious than the problems of those following proper procedure? Where else does it work like that? Can I just walk right up to the counter at the DMV without taking a number because I think my business is more important than everyone else's? Do I get to bypass everyone in the doc's waiting room because my foot really hurts? No, I get in line. How is usurping the system fair to those people who've been waiting in line for a year? Thousands of illegals are inundating the system and making it near impossible for those people who are trying to get here legally. I don't believe those people's problems are any more or less minute than those stuck in Mexico, but they have managed to follow procedure.

And thanks for bringing us back to my original point. If a Mexican living in Mexico can become the richest man on Earth why can't a couple hundred thousand of his fellow countrymen come up with $675, the aptitude to fill out an application and the will to exercise a little patience? How much do they have to pay smugglers to get them in? $200? $500? $1,000?

Like I said, its not that they would not want to come here legally. It may not be fair to the ones who are waiting to go through the proper channels, but like I said - when a person is desperate to feed their family, there is little or no patience for bureaucracy.

Just because someone manages to create a large amount of wealth for himself does not mean that so can everyone. If that were the case, as I stated earlier, why aren't we all as loaded as Bill Gates or Warren Buffet? I mean, we live in the same country right? Hell, you're right next door to Gates...where's your fortune? Maybe you're too lazy and not trying hard enough. Besides, Carlos Slim was already born rich - he had that advantage.

Why would you not want 'them' to come over here if they did it legally?

What? I never said that. Look back at all the words I've been writing in this thread. Never once have I said anything derogatory about immigrants who come here legally. Did you not see the entire paragraph I wrote about my Iranian friend? I'm talking about ILLEGAL immigration.

OK...so let everyone who is already here become legal and make the process easier for those who want to come here. Would you be opposed to that?

[bull]

Many people (myself included) are understandibly a little concerned about who is here now. I believe the application process reveals some history on the applicant so we're not letting in rapists, killers and thieves. To my knowledge we have no record of who is here now so offering them unrestricted citizenship is not a good idea IMO. Also, it could still usurp the process and allow thousands to bypass the system that thousands of others have had to patiently endure. No, I don't see any good reason for us to basically give up, throw our hands in the air and say, "To hell with it, you're all in." If they're already here they can probably afford the $675 application fee. I probably wouldn't even care if they stayed while the application is being processed as long as they reported in to an agency a couple times a month. But if their history reveals criminal activity I think they should be on the next bus home, and they definitely should not be given citizenship until those in line before them are given citizenship.

[Ponch ®]

Many people (myself included) are understandibly a little concerned about who is here now. I believe the application process reveals some history on the applicant so we're not letting in rapists, killers and thieves. To my knowledge we have no record of who is here now so offering them unrestricted citizenship is not a good idea IMO. Also, it could still usurp the process and allow thousands to bypass the system that thousands of others have had to patiently endure. No, I don't see any good reason for us to basically give up, throw our hands in the air and say, "To hell with it, you're all in." If they're already here they can probably afford the $675 application fee. I probably wouldn't even care if they stayed while the application is being processed as long as they reported in to an agency a couple times a month. But if their history reveals criminal activity I think they should be on the next bus home, and they definitely should not be given citizenship until those in line before them are given citizenship.

Now, thats a reasonable position.

I still don't understand why you are so concerned about "the other who have to endure" the process. I know it's not fair, but a lot of current laws / protocols (and I don't mean just immigration related stuff) aren't either, but we accept them. If it'll speed up the process and help more people integrate themselves into our society as legal citizens, I don't see what the big deal is.

[bull]

Many people (myself included) are understandably a little concerned about who is here now. I believe the application process reveals some history on the applicant so we're not letting in rapists, killers and thieves. To my knowledge we have no record of who is here now so offering them unrestricted citizenship is not a good idea IMO. Also, it could still usurp the process and allow thousands to bypass the system that thousands of others have had to patiently endure. No, I don't see any good reason for us to basically give up, throw our hands in the air and say, "To hell with it, you're all in." If they're already here they can probably afford the $675 application fee. I probably wouldn't even care if they stayed while the application is being processed as long as they reported in to an agency a couple times a month. But if their history reveals criminal activity I think they should be on the next bus home, and they definitely should not be given citizenship until those in line before them are given citizenship.

Now, thats a reasonable position.

I still don't understand why you are so concerned about "the other who have to endure" the process. I know it's not fair, but a lot of current laws / protocols (and I don't mean just immigration related stuff) aren't either, but we accept them. If it'll speed up the process and help more people integrate themselves into our society as legal citizens, I don't see what the big deal is.

I'm sure that if you gave me some examples of these current laws/protocols that aren't fair either I'd have a problem with them too. I just don't think it's in our collective interest to let people run amok, you know what I'm saying? There's a reason we don't allow kids to drive their Acuras down the freeway at 120 mph when everyone else is doing 60. That speeds up the process too but it's also dangerous. Speeding the process of immigration can make way for mistakes, oversights and omissions and I just don't think that's in the best interest of the US as a whole.

[bull]

Here's a fun read, or, "21 reasons I think immigrants should follow protocol to become citizens":

"The Master Plan" ­ by Bush and Our Congress
 
President Bush writes a book titled: "THE MASTER PLAN: They Do the Jobs Americans Won't Do." After you decipher his book, here's what it's costing you:
 
1. $11 billion to $22 billion spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.
 
2. $2.2 billion dollars a year spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
 
3. $2.5 billion dollars a year spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
 
4. $12 billion dollars a year spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally.
 
5. $17 billion dollars a year spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
 
6. $3 million dollars a day spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
 
7. 29 percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
 
8. $90 billion dollars a year spent on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
 
9. $200 billion Dollars a year in lost-suppressed American wages caused by the illegal aliens.
 
10. Illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of citizen-taxpayer Americans. Their children make a huge additional crime problem in the United States.
 
11. During the year of 2005, there were 4 to 10 million illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border. In addition, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens arrived from terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S. from the Southern border.
 
12. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 billion in remittances back to their countries of origin. Obfuscation may have hidden $35 Billion more.
 
13. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants in the United States."
 
14. Every day (average), 12 Americans are murdered by an illegal alien. Another 13 Americans are killed by uninsured drunk illegal aliens, and Eight American Children are victims of a sex crime committed by an illegal alien each day! Local cops, acting in error, sometimes "forget" to annotate nationality on reports. The numbers may be worse.
 
15. Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal prison inmates. These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of the federal prison population.
 
Incarceration of criminal aliens cost an estimated $624 million to state prisons (1999) and $891 million to federal prisons (2002), according to the most recent available figure from the U.S. DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics.
 
16. "Illegal Aliens and American Medicine," "Many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American Medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue and Chagas disease." The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons.
 
17. In 2002, HIV/AIDS was the third leading cause of death among Hispanic men aged 35 to 44 and the fourth leading cause of death among Hispanic women in the same age group. Most Hispanic men were exposed to HIV through sexual contact with other men. Source (U.S. CDC):
 
18. If enacted, the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (CIRA, S. 2611) would be the most dramatic change in immigration law in 80 years, granting Amnesty to 30 million illegal immigrants, and allowing an estimated 100-203 million persons to legally immigrate to the U.S. over the next 20-40 years ­ a number equal to fully two-thirds of the current population of the United States.
 
19. U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) today unveiled an impact analysis that shows the Senate immigration bill ­ should it become law ­ would permit up to 217.1 million new legal immigrants into the United States over the next 20 years, a number equal to more than 70 percent of the total current population.
 
20. The number of illegal immigrants in the United States is at least 20 million, and may be as many as 30 million people, more than triple the official nine million people estimated by the Census Bureau. 03 Jan 2005.
 
21. Cases of Leprosy on the Rise In The U.S. , The New York Times. "While there were some 900 recorded cases in the United States 40 years ago, today more than 7,000 people have leprosy." Leprosy is an airborne virus; it can also be spread by touching and coughing.
 
Are you sickened by this movie? This nation needs a 10 year moratorium on all immigration. We need to stop this invasion of our nation and destruction of our future.
 
Dear reader, I don't know what it's going to take for you to mobilize yourself, your spouse, your kids, your community, your state, your local-county-state-national politicians -- and your country- but it's well past time to push the "eject-button" to get out of this nightmare. It matters little what your race, creed or color-as an American citizen, you and your children will become victims of this "Human Katrina" flooding into our country.  This column exposes the ingredients for our destruction; it's a cookbook of our boiling our culture, language and civilization to death.
 
Sources for all 21 points (some links are no longer active):
 
1. http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7fd8
2. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
5. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
6. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
7. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
8. http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
9. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
10. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf
12. http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/nation/15795654.htm?source=rss&channel=cctimes_nation
13. http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html
14. http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/ia05_king/col_20060505_bite.html
14. http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9c
15. http://www.jpands.org/jpands1001.htm
16. http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/hispanic.htm
17. http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm
18. http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=255553&&;
19. http://www.bearstearns.com/bscportal/pdfs/underground.pdf
20. http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Disease/030226.leprosy.in.US.html
21. http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-03-15/whitford-americanleprosy
      http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=78621 

[Forza]

Im voting for Bull in '08

[70charger_boy]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

[bull]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Really? Did that infomation come from www.70charger_boysa$$.com?

[RECHRGD]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!! Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

[Ponch ®]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!! Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Myth 4. Migrants Are Attracted to the United States by Generous Public Benefits

Besides high wages, another resource potentially attractive to immigrants is public-benefit programs in the United States such as welfare (Aid to Families with Dependent Children, or AFDC), food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Prominent in the popular imagination is the notion that immigrants in general, and undocumented immigrants in particular, consume more in public services than they contribute in taxes, thus burdening U.S.-citizen taxpayers. Indeed, Proposition 187 in California was organized precisely around this belief, as its preamble states that it seeks "...to prevent illegal aliens in the United States from receiving benefits or public services in the State of California."

Although Proposition 187 was approved by voters in 1994, its provisions were voided by the federal courts. Nonetheless, it served as a model for federal legislation enacted by Congress. Taking a cue from Proposition 187, the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 declared undocumented immigrants ineligible for Social Security while limiting their eligibility for educational benefits even if they had paid the requisite taxes. The legislation also granted states the authority to limit public assistance to U.S. citizens alone. At the same time, the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (better known as the Welfare Reform Act) barred legal immigrants from receiving food stamps or Supplemental Security Income and prohibited them from receiving AFDC for at least five years after admission to the United States.

However, research on the foreign-born generally finds that immigrants are less likely than natives to use public services and that most of those who do use them are refugee groups, such as Russians, Cubans, and Indochinese.10 Studies that focus specifically on undocumented immigrants suggest they use public services at rates far below those of legal immigrants. A 1987 study, for example, found that just 2 percent of illegal Mexican immigrants had ever received welfare or Social Security payments and just 3 percent had ever accepted food stamps. In contrast, 84 percent paid taxes.11

Data from the Mexican Migration Project (MMP) of Princeton University and the University of Guadalajara indicate rates of tax withholding and public-service use by undocumented Mexican migrants. Nearly 6,000 migrants provided this information on their last trip to the United States. Some 66 percent of migrants reported the withholding of Social Security taxes and 62 percent said that employers withheld income taxes from their paychecks. While the vast majority paid taxes into the federal treasury, however, far fewer withdrew funds: only 10 percent even reported ?ling a tax return. Whereas nearly three-quarters paid taxes, very few made use of any public service in the United States. Around 10 percent said they had ever sent a child to U.S. public schools and 7 percent indicated they had received Supplemental Security Income. Just 5 percent or less of all migrants reported ever using food stamps, AFDC, or unemployment compensation.

It also is possible to measure the influence of expected welfare benefits on the likelihood of undocumented migration. This is accomplished by estimating each migrant's probability of using welfare and food stamps given his or her socioeconomic and demographic characteristics, and then multiplying this probability by the average value of monthly AFDC and food stamp payments in the leading migrant-receiving states. Instead of finding a positive correlation between the expected value of welfare benefits and undocumented migration, a 1997 study found a rather strong negative association. That is, the greater the potential benefit, the less likely the migration.12 Figure 6 compares the size of this effect to that of expected wages and real interest rates, discussed earlier. Obviously these data provide little evidence that the United States is a "welfare magnet" for undocumented migrants. Summarizing the results of this and other studies, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace concluded that "there is no reputable evidence that prospective immigrants are drawn to the U.S. because of its public assistance program."13

10 George J. Borjas & Lynette Hilton, "Immigration and the Welfare State: Immigrant Participation in Means-Tested Entitlement Programs." The Quarterly Journal of Economics 111: 575-604, 1996; Michael Fix & Jeffrey S. Passel, Immigration and Immigrants: Setting the Record Straight. Washington, DC: Urban Institute Press, 1994.
11 Douglas S. Massey, Rafael Alarcón, Jorge Durand & Humberto González, Return to Aztlan: The Social Process of International Migration from Western Mexico. Berkeley & Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1987.
12 Douglas S. Massey & Kristin E. Espinosa, "What's Driving Mexico-U.S. Migration? A Theoretical, Empirical and Policy Analysis." American Journal of Sociology 102: 939-999, 1997.
13 Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, "Immigrants and Welfare." Research Perspectives on Migration 1(1). Washington, DC: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, International Migration Policy Project, 1996. 

[Charger_Fan]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Sure they are. 
I needed new sig material anyway.


The score sheet on the illegal debate is;
Bull is right.
Ponch is not.
That's it.

Ponch, since your opinion is firmly rooted lately in favor for the illegal's cause, why don't you offer to move to Mexico & help the "poor people who just want to feed their families" on THAT side of the fence? You could band together with other like-minded bleeding hearts & finally turn Mexico around to make it a place that a poor individual can have a chance of making something of himself in his own country!
Hell, I bet our government would even jump on that bandwagon, once they saw positive progress from people living there & try to help bring a stable government to the scene. It would be a better deal for both countries in the end.

[The70RT]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Your correct. WE THE PEOPLE PAY THE GOVERNMENT! So the sick don't get treated.??... well that's not a good thing. Why come over illegally? Their missing the point of freedom. We don't need ANOTHER Mexico here. Bottom line is if they want to be a US Citizen - Do what is right. If there is so much fear here then go back home. Bull had some great points and everyone bashes them. We are the people and so what is so bad about making illegals....well legal. I know I wouldn't want to run around looking over my shoulder everywhere I went. If they don't get citizenship who will pay for the elderly or how can you retire over here comfortably? We will continue to foot the bill. This county is in a hell of a fix now as it is. This thread needs locked and why was it even brought up? This is Charger.com. I'm sure there is plenty of other forums for you all to think up ways to piss off the LEGAL American Citizens....so why do it here? Yes ones born here were blessed and You can feel sorry for the others that's your business.  I am going back to working on my car But if I have any indication of illegals in my area i will do the right thing

[Ponch ®]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Sure they are. 
I needed new sig material anyway.


The score sheet on the illegal debate is;
Bull is right.
Ponch is not.
That's it.

Ponch, since your opinion is firmly rooted lately in favor for the illegal's cause, why don't you offer to move to Mexico & help the "poor people who just want to feed their families" on THAT side of the fence? You could band together with other like-minded bleeding hearts & finally turn Mexico around to make it a place that a poor individual can have a chance of making something of himself in his own country!
Hell, I bet our government would even jump on that bandwagon, once they saw positive progress from people living there & try to help bring a stable government to the scene. It would be a better deal for both countries in the end.

Is not that my opinion is firmly rooted in favor of the illegals, but I'm being realistic here. Can we really kick out 12 million people? Do we really know what that'll do to the economy? What's gonna stop them from coming back? Fences and walls don't work. Will these downtrodden, hard working Americans who are supposedly displaced by the illegals be willing to work plucking dead chickens for $6 an hour? Will we be willing pay to 2-3 times as much for those chickens in order to cover the overtime, vacation, sick time, and other benefits that the locals will demand?

We need to get beyond the demagoguery of "lets round up these greasy Mexicans, kick em out, and shoot em at the border" or "why dont YOU go back to Mexico" ('cause I'm an American, thats why).

And look, if you just don't want Mexicans to come here because you don't like how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados, just say it...I'll respect you more for it cause at least I'll know where you stand. Don't beat around the bush with all this thinly veiled"we're a nation of laws and they're breaking them" bullshit. It's kinda disconcerting to know that if most of you saw me in the street, without knowing who I am, would more than likely assume that I'm some welfare suckin' illegal.

[The70RT]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Sure they are. 
I needed new sig material anyway.


The score sheet on the illegal debate is;
Bull is right.
Ponch is not.
That's it.

Ponch, since your opinion is firmly rooted lately in favor for the illegal's cause, why don't you offer to move to Mexico & help the "poor people who just want to feed their families" on THAT side of the fence? You could band together with other like-minded bleeding hearts & finally turn Mexico around to make it a place that a poor individual can have a chance of making something of himself in his own country!
Hell, I bet our government would even jump on that bandwagon, once they saw positive progress from people living there & try to help bring a stable government to the scene. It would be a better deal for both countries in the end.

Is not that my opinion is firmly rooted in favor of the illegals, but I'm being realistic here. Can we really kick out 12 million people? Do we really know what that'll do to the economy? What's gonna stop them from coming back? Fences and walls don't work.

We need to get beyond the demagoguery of "lets round up these greasy Mexicans, kick em out, and shoot em at the border" or "why dont YOU go back to Mexico" ('cause I'm an American, thats why).

And look, if you just don't want Mexicans to come here because you don't like how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados, just say it...I'll respect you more for it cause at least I'll know where you stand. Don't beat around the bush with all this thinly veiled"we're a nation of laws and they're breaking them" bullshit. It's kinda disconcerting to know that if most of you saw me in the street, without knowing who I am, would more than likely assume that I'm some welfare suckin' illegal.

Exactly.....that should motivate you even more

[bull]

We need to get beyond the demagoguery of "lets round up these greasy Mexicans, kick em out, and shoot em at the border" or "why dont YOU go back to Mexico" ('cause I'm an American, thats why).

And look, if you just don't want Mexicans to come here because you don't like how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados, just say it...I'll respect you more for it cause at least I'll know where you stand. Don't beat around the bush with all this thinly veiled"we're a nation of laws and they're breaking them" bullshit. It's kinda disconcerting to know that if most of you saw me in the street, without knowing who I am, would more than likely assume that I'm some welfare suckin' illegal.

I'm still confused as to who is making these racist statements about Mexicans, here or in any other serious debate on the topic. It seems to be a reactionary statement based on an assumption that has gone beyond trite. Is it not possible to debate this issue without getting defensive about this mythical racism? I'm sure there are people who don't like Mexicans just because of "how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados" but I don't hear that BS in any discussions I've been a part of. Racism is not taken serously when it comes to policy, it's about facts and figures and no amount of finger-pointing on your part is going to make people admit to something they are not.

[Ponch ®]

The federal govt does not spend a DIME on Illegals!!!!!  Illegals are to afraid to go to the hospital or to the govt for any help for fear of being deported

Sure they are. 
I needed new sig material anyway.


The score sheet on the illegal debate is;
Bull is right.
Ponch is not.
That's it.

Ponch, since your opinion is firmly rooted lately in favor for the illegal's cause, why don't you offer to move to Mexico & help the "poor people who just want to feed their families" on THAT side of the fence? You could band together with other like-minded bleeding hearts & finally turn Mexico around to make it a place that a poor individual can have a chance of making something of himself in his own country!
Hell, I bet our government would even jump on that bandwagon, once they saw positive progress from people living there & try to help bring a stable government to the scene. It would be a better deal for both countries in the end.

Is not that my opinion is firmly rooted in favor of the illegals, but I'm being realistic here. Can we really kick out 12 million people? Do we really know what that'll do to the economy? What's gonna stop them from coming back? Fences and walls don't work.

We need to get beyond the demagoguery of "lets round up these greasy Mexicans, kick em out, and shoot em at the border" or "why dont YOU go back to Mexico" ('cause I'm an American, thats why).

And look, if you just don't want Mexicans to come here because you don't like how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados, just say it...I'll respect you more for it cause at least I'll know where you stand. Don't beat around the bush with all this thinly veiled"we're a nation of laws and they're breaking them" bullshit. It's kinda disconcerting to know that if most of you saw me in the street, without knowing who I am, would more than likely assume that I'm some welfare suckin' illegal.

Exactly.....that should motivate you even more

motivate for what?

We need to get beyond the demagoguery of "lets round up these greasy Mexicans, kick em out, and shoot em at the border" or "why dont YOU go back to Mexico" ('cause I'm an American, thats why).

And look, if you just don't want Mexicans to come here because you don't like how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados, just say it...I'll respect you more for it cause at least I'll know where you stand. Don't beat around the bush with all this thinly veiled"we're a nation of laws and they're breaking them" bullshit. It's kinda disconcerting to know that if most of you saw me in the street, without knowing who I am, would more than likely assume that I'm some welfare suckin' illegal.

I'm still confused as to who is making these racist statements about Mexicans, here or in any other serious debate on the topic. It seems to be a reactionary statement based on an assumption that has gone beyond trite. Is it not possible to debate this issue without getting defensive about this mythical racism? I'm sure there are people who don't like Mexicans just because of "how they look, or the language they speak, or because they put all those lousy Mexican flags and stickers on their shiny new Silverados" but I don't hear that BS in any discussions I've been a part of. Racism is not taken serously when it comes to policy, it's about facts and figures and no amount of finger-pointing on your part is going to make people admit to something they are not.

I didn't say you or anybody here specifically, I never even said the word "racism",  but if the shoe fits...I mean, someone already proudly stated that they "hate" illegal immigrants. I was commenting on the anti-immigration debate in general. A lot of these anti-immigration groups will go off about the laws, and how everyone is welcome as long as its done legally. But then when you mention amnesty, or softening up of the process, it then turns into how they're all gonna come over here, and speak spanish, etc. - which is a thinly veiled way of stating that they just dont like them as a people.